Universalism

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by CaDan

Umm. Non-Christians don't believe in Hell. How is your doctrine supposed to make them feel fear if they don't believe it in the first place?
​

Many don't believe in heaven either.... how are they
getting saved when they deny God & heaven exist?

Further, it's proof that NO facts about God or heaven
or hell "save" people in any direction.

What works for one, does not work with another.

Salvation hinges on Christ and His work in our hearts.
Period.

 

[CaDan]

How can you even say that!
So ALL nonChristians reject that hell is real?

I've seen & heard MANY of them that agree hell is real, and they
HOPE it's real for those 'evil people' they want to pay for the
things they've done to people....

Your post is off base due to this faulty premise

That would be the doctrine you preach most of the time. I can find posts, but most participants in this thread should be pretty familiar with your arguments. You argue Hell and eternal damnation must exist because there are people who are very, very bad.

Yet you claim to be a Christian, and I do not dispute that claim.

 

[red77]

Then explain why God's will is that a pedophile
not molest a child, yet pedophiles molest children on a
daily basis. (ie. SIN).

I'm shocked to even read such a criticism when we have these
facts before us as if drawing logical conclusions to biblical
facts is now somehow wrong and makes it false. LOL

The whole point is that God's will is superior to ours and that
He doesn't abide by our logic or reasoning for His plans &
purposes.

And I'd certainly take my "theological construct" over reading in
a false doctrine where it doesn't even fit the context,
directly refutes other verses we have, and limits God to
fitting man's constraints due to his ideal of "love" (imposed
onto God).

The ones with the real problems in this thread are Universalists.

obviously.

If God doesn't abide by our logic or reasoning then who are you to say that we're wrong for believing that God ultimately fulfills what He desires? You cart blanche dictate that God will not reconcile all men which is what He wills. Many many verses support God being able to accomplish this intent but they oppose your doctrine and so have to read "out of context" and "twisted" and so on.

Corinthians 13 gives the most eloquent description of love on record and I suspect it's there for a reason yes? Thats the biblical definition of love and not 'mans' true?

The end of your post is mere projection.

 

[CaDan]

Many don't believe in heaven either.... how are they
getting saved when they deny God & heaven exist?

Further, it's proof that NO facts about God or heaven
or hell "save" people in any direction.

Then why, o why, do you so vociferously argue on this topic?

What works for one, does not work with another.

Salvation hinges on Christ and His work in our hearts.
Period.

Salvation hinges on Christ and His Passion and Resurrection.

 

[Nadiine]

Unscriptural according the Job and Ecclesiastes. Just sayin.'



I'm shocked, shocked! to find gambling here!



Which, of course, you schematize into the theological construct of "Permissive Will" and such.



*shnort*

See, you assume consequent right there. Generally not good logic, but hey! logic is that pesky "wisdom of men" amirite?

As I have said for several years on this site--often in discussion with you--I am indifferent on the issue of universal reconciliation. I can find support for it in the Scriptures and I can find opposition to it in the same Scriptures. What I will not tolerate is the repeated assertion by those opposed that there is no support at all.

You can go argue the great theologians who teach permissive
will/ more than one will, then.

You aren't arguing me, but their wisdom which surpasses mine.

The fact that God wills what we find harsh or even unloving &
hurtful is what God wills (from our limited perspective) -

And the fact that God allows sin to occur when He wills that
we do not sin is a proof that He is not on the same level of
thinking that we are.
Therefore, as scripture tells us, we MUST adhere to HIS
teachings and HIS reasoning instead of our own.

What universalists do is force God into their reasonings which
limit Him greatly.

It's done by what they believe He has to do (by His will), and
what they think Love is when God's love is far superior and
genuine than ours is.

Either way, if you're supporting universalism here, you have
the bigger problem -
just trying to attack our points doesn't make universalism true
either....
try proving it for a change instead of just attacking the
opposition

 

[red77]

Many don't believe in heaven either.... how are they
getting saved when they deny God & heaven exist?

Further, it's proof that NO facts about God or heaven
or hell "save" people in any direction.

What works for one, does not work with another.

Salvation hinges on Christ and His work in our hearts.
Period.

If it hinges on Christ and His work in our hearts then isn't that infringing upon our "free will"?

 

[Nadiine]

Then why, o why, do you so vociferously argue on this topic?



Salvation hinges on Christ and His Passion and Resurrection.

Becuz Universalism is heretical in denying Jesus' command
to repent and be born again or die in your sins.

Just becuz those are facts that I stated, why ask why I
argue this topic? Why not? There's no reason it should limit
me any in witnessing for Christ in most any topics.

 

[Nadiine]

If it hinges on Christ and His work in our hearts then isn't that infringing upon our "free will"?

? no

How is drawing a spirit that is dead to the only life there is for it
'infringing' when God let's people reject Him?

 

[Nadiine]

I have to sign off, life awaits me offline

 

[Tissue]

Just a note for those who struggle with finding this world so lovible and wondering why God would create something that would be lost.

When God created everything including man He called it "good" or "very good". But when Jesus walked the earth He said, 'None is good except God", what happened? The fall happened, and things were not how He made them nor were they good.

But we know it wasn't an accident on God's part because scripture teaches these thengs were known before the creation. What was also known was that God would enter time, come as a child and reviel Himself and then make the ultimate sacrifice. So God was prepared before He let man have the choice to sin, to give him the choice of forgiveness and the chance to return to what God intended.

Man is his own enemy. Satan didn't make Adam and Eve sin, he is merely an opportunist, and encourager of sin. Every thing or everyone that does not follow God is an enemy of God, and thus a hinderence to man ever reaching God. God has a genuine Agape Love for His creation want wants to restore it, and the book of revelation describes that restoration. But the same chapter that attempts to describe the amazing restored, or New Earth, exposes the painful truth that not all make it, because not all are willing to be restored.

There's a very big difference between someone willfully and knowledgeable rejecting restoration, and someone rejecting Christianity.

The rest of creation IS described as being purified by fire, God destroys creation by fire before rebuilding it. but the souls of those lost in sin are not destroyed but lost in the second death which is the Lake of Fire.

A strange little discussed fact is that Satan was on the earth before God created man. Satan was cast down to the earth before Adam and eve were in the garden. This curious thing seems to support the gap theory but that would go even further off topic. The point is, God put us on the earth WITH the tempter knowing we would try the same thing Satan tried, to become our own god's. Is the book of Job becoming more real? There would seem to be a real cosmic contest, the deal is, God (being God)is omniciant and Satan is not. God entered into this knowing how it would end and that He would would have what He valued, which is lovers of righteousness.

In other words, God was willing to sacrifice a few folks to hell in order to get what he wants. That's not a pleasant picture. Pretty selfish too. Not exactly loving.

If God would not force the angels to conform to Him why would He make us and do different. God finds something so valuable in us who chose Him that all heaven rejoices for ONE that is saved. That is what He values.

We are invited to become His Children, Agape'd for all eternity. Or we can refuse and God will let us go. You may wish to believe with all your heart that your frends and family believe, even in the last seconds of their lives, but don't hold God ransom to the belief that all will be save. He told us how the world would end and even gave us dimentions for the new one, but He said clear as light:
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Revelation 21:5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

This is not a prediction, it is truth and fact. Pray for friends, but look to God and don't be held back by doubting His character...HE WILL DO THE RIGHT THING!! And you will one day understand!

I already know what it is that you believe, and no amount of repeating it will convince me that it is true.

 

[red77]

You can go argue the great theologians who teach permissive
will/ more than one will, then.

You aren't arguing me, but their wisdom which surpasses mine.

The fact that God wills what we find harsh or even unloving &
hurtful is what God wills (from our limited perspective) -

And the fact that God allows sin to occur when He wills that
we do not sin is a proof that He is not on the same level of
thinking that we are.
Therefore, as scripture tells us, we MUST adhere to HIS
teachings and HIS reasoning instead of our own.

What universalists do is force God into their reasonings which
limit Him greatly.

It's done by what they believe He has to do (by His will), and
what they think Love is when God's love is far superior and
genuine than ours is.

Either way, if you're supporting universalism here, you have
the bigger problem -
just trying to attack our points doesn't make universalism true
either....
try proving it for a change instead of just attacking the
opposition

And yet a doctrine that teaches that most of God's creation is lost is "unlimiting"? You preach that God has to send people into eternal hell and that He can't fulfill His desire for all men to come to the truth.

You are also contradicting yourself if you place importance on 'great theologians' whose intelligence supposedly surpasses yours. Do they not use reasoning to reach their conclusions?

 

[red77]

I have to sign off, life awaits me offline

Has it been death on CF?

 

[red77]

? no

How is drawing a spirit that is dead to the only life there is for it
'infringing' when God let's people reject Him?

Because if it's necassary for God to 'work on our hearts' then it's infringing free will. To be honest I don't have a problem with it. I don't believe in absolute free will anyway and Jesus does talk about drawing all men unto Him.

 

[Tissue]

No this is actually a very serious illustration

It really isn't. No Universalist would say that, nor is it a full representation of Universalism. It's a caricature, meant to mock, rather than to rationally address. It's a sign of weakness, of cowardice. For those who recognize the subtleties of the Universalist stance (whether or not they adhere to it), and are not simply looking for a way to slough off something they don't understand in the first place, it may very well seem to imply that you haven't a leg to stand on.

 

[Rajni]

With regards to your last post then I agree that God would have known that man would fall in advance. It goes further though. You talk about God lovingly allowing his creations to have free will. Why is that loving if the end destination for most is an eternity of suffering? How could it be loving to give man something where his own weakness, fallibility, curiosity and inquisitiveness would lead many to such a fate?

This is the part I could never get. I think of all the minor areas that we weren’t given any choice about. Things that have absolutely no bearing on our eternal fate. God made executive decisions about those things without ever taking “free will” into account. Then along comes the most critical aspect of a soul’s existence – their eternal destiny – and all of a sudden God’s like “Hey kiddo, good luck with that!”

I also am baffled that the prospect of not having “free will” seems to be harder for people to warm up to than the prospect of not having salvation. Reminds me of a scene in a movie (or maybe it was just a commercial) where the flight attendant announces that the plane is out of fuel, and nobody even flinches. When she goes on to say that they’re out of coffee, however, everyone flies into a panic.

 

[Tissue]

You can go argue the great theologians who teach permissive
will/ more than one will, then.

Thank God everyone doesn't have this same attitude, or else any sort of rational conversation would be well nigh impossible.

Well, impossibler.

 

[red77]

How can you even say that!
So ALL nonChristians reject that hell is real?

I've seen & heard MANY of them that agree hell is real, and they
HOPE it's real for those 'evil people' they want to pay for the
things they've done to people....

Your post is off base due to this faulty premise

This is a bizarre claim. If they're non believers then they're hardly going to believe in a literal hell if they don't think God or Heaven is real are they?

 

[Rajni]

Dangers of Universalism:

Illustration of how Universalism can be dangerous:

Universalist: "Listen here Mormon, if you continue to believe that you can become a god, that Satan and Jesus are literal brothers, that God has a body of flesh and bones and has a goddess wife, and that you can become a god of your own world, you know what is going to happen to you? You're going to heaven! So there!"

Mormon: "Sounds good to me."

More like this from back in the 1800s:

Ballou was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist preacher one afternoon. They argued theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.” Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.”

~Hosea Ballou, 19th Century Christian Universalist​

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[Rajni]

If God doesn't abide by our logic or reasoning then who are you to say that we're wrong for believing that God ultimately fulfills what He desires? You cart blanche dictate that God will not reconcile all men which is what He wills. Many many verses support God being able to accomplish this intent but they oppose your doctrine and so have to read "out of context" and "twisted" and so on.

Corinthians 13 gives the most eloquent description of love on record and I suspect it's there for a reason yes? Thats the biblical definition of love and not 'mans' true?

The end of your post is mere projection.

I've often heard that we have to conclude that there is an eternal hell because "His ways are higher than our ways." I beg to differ,though -- it's precisely because His ways are higher than our ways that He wouldn't torment people forever in hell just for the sake of revenge. That's a lowly human inclination -- to inflict torment just for the sake of it -- not a higher inclination more appropriate for a Deity who scripture says is love itself.

 

[timlamb]

red77;52432716]I read your last post and was going to respond to it but I'll do that here.

Firstly though all three cannot be true because what God desires or wills isn't accomplished. Reasoning as to why it doesn't happen is separate from acknowledging that it doesn't happen itself. Thats why your doctrine can only allow 2 and 3 and not all three.

Nadiine pointed out that God's will is not done on earth. But you don't listen.

With regards to your last post then I agree that God would have known that man would fall in advance. It goes further though. You talk about God lovingly allowing his creations to have free will. Why is that loving if the end destination for most is an eternity of suffering?

Maybe even ending like it does, life is more valuable than never having life? But you won't listen.

How could it be loving to give man something where his own weakness, fallibility, curiosity and inquisitiveness would lead many to such a fate?

You left out all the sins God mentions of those going to the Lke of Fire. Idolitors, liars, murders, ect. (Rev. 21:7-8) But you won't listen

Do you think that all of those who don't believe 'choose' it because they don't want God to exist? Many people hope that there's a God and that life has a purpose behind it. Are they all wilfully rebelling?

Yes, they are. According to scripture man is without excuse (Rom. 1) because God has made Himself known to them. It's in the word, but you won't believe it because you just won't listen.

We say all kinds of things and you call it foolishness and you won't listen.

Originally Posted by timlamb

What does God desire of you? To walk humbly with your God, to LOVE mercy! Did it cross your mind that these things can only happen in a willing spirit.

All three can be true because what God desires is for us to chose to be saved. Look at all the trouble He's gone to, read my last post. Even bringing us here was prearranged to encourage a willful return to righteousness. He could have kicked Satan off earth before He made Adam and Eve, He could have stopped this all in the Garden of Eden, no, He says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock". He has met us more than half way, nothing to do but say yes, and still most won't do it.

What more do you want from Him?