Universalism

[red77]

1. God is able to accomplish what He desires.
2. God desires that all people be saved.
3. Most people will not be saved.
The are all true if God stays true to His character to loving allow his creation to be free.
THIS IS LIKE:
1. I am able to lock my daughter in her room until she is married.
2. I desire that she save herself for marriage.
3. I can't lock my daughter in her room until she is married.
I can do all these because I lovingly allow my daughter to chose.

How can they all be true if God isn't able to accomplish what He desires? You believe that God can do 2 and 3 but not 1 which the article pointed out.

 

[timlamb]

How can they all be true if God isn't able to accomplish what He desires? You believe that God can do 2 and 3 but not 1 which the article pointed out.

What does God desire of you? To walk humbly with your God, to LOVE mercy! Did it cross your mind that these things can only happen in a willing spirit.

All three can be true because what God desires is for us to chose to be saved. Look at all the trouble He's gone to, read my last post. Even bringing us here was prearranged to encourage a willful return to righteousness. He could have kicked Satan off earth before He made Adam and Eve, He could have stopped this all in the Garden of Eden, no, He says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock". He has met us more than half way, nothing to do but say yes, and still most won't do it.

What more do you want from Him?

 

[red77]

ROFL
I gave up trying to convince you a long time ago. You have it all Philosophied out in you head that scripture means nothing to you. I have quoted the whole book of jude, the send chapter of second Peter and the 21 chapter of Revelation just a few posts apart and it all gets written off. 2Kings showed what I had tried to show many times(only he did it better) that eternal judgment and eternal salvation are both proven by the origional wording. Nadiine gave lessons on the nature of God, and so many others have stuck in here at one time or another to prove your theology false teaching, but you just ignore it all.

No, I've stuck it out for those on the fence who need to see the truth as compared to what you are teaching. Your smug little attitudes of pride and irreverance said we didn't understand God or thought God too weak to save us or we are haters because we know God WILL punish sin and it ain't no correctional institution, it is an eternal sentance.

I'll hang around to disclaim you until you get me kicked off, but I gave up trying to convince you, you just don't listen.

Tim

You can hardly expect people to suddenly change their view because you've posted on the subject a number of times. I don't expect to convince you particularly. It seems as though you're convinced no matter what anyone supplies. You may say the same about me but I was taught orthodox religion before I questioned it and it certainly wasn't an 'overnight' change or simply because it was more 'comfy' or whatever.

So many people have jumped in this thread from all sides and I wager neither side is innocent of contention or arrogance, including myself.

I don't see it as arrogant to be at odds with a doctrine that says God cannot accomplish His own will or desire.

 

[Nadiine]

How can they all be true if God isn't able to accomplish what He desires? You believe that God can do 2 and 3 but not 1 which the article pointed out.

Does God desire that women get abortions for selfish reasons?

Does God desire that 4 year old's get raped by pedophiles?
Murdered?

Does God DESIRE the evil we see all over this world?

This proves that God has more than one will.
He desires perfection and goodness, but that is NOT what
He gets and He surely isn't forcing it.
He desires all will repent, but that's not what He gets.

He came to earth to call sinners to repent too, did they ALL
repent? Nope, His crucifixion is proof of that.

Jesus requested that the cup pass from Him, did it pass?
Nope.

Just becuz God desires something, doesn't mean he does it
or gets it.
He has a PERMISSIVE WILL where He allows the brokenness
and sin nature to operate.

There are studies done on the will(s) of God.

 

[2 King]

Does God desire that women get abortions for selfish reasons?

Does God desire that 4 year old's get raped by pedophiles?
Murdered?

Does God DESIRE the evil we see all over this world?

This proves that God has more than one will.
He desires perfection and goodness, but that is NOT what
He gets and He surely isn't forcing it.
He desires all will repent, but that's not what He gets.

He came to earth to call sinners to repent too, did they ALL
repent? Nope, His crucifixion is proof of that.

Jesus requested that the cup pass from Him, did it pass?
Nope.

Just becuz God desires something, doesn't mean he does it
or gets it.
He has a PERMISSIVE WILL where He allows the brokenness
and sin nature to operate.

There are studies done on the will(s) of God.

Thank GOD! This is excelent. Good Job!

 

[timlamb]

Tim

You can hardly expect people to suddenly change their view because you've posted on the subject a number of times. I don't expect to convince you particularly. It seems as though you're convinced no matter what anyone supplies. You may say the same about me but I was taught orthodox religion before I questioned it and it certainly wasn't an 'overnight' change or simply because it was more 'comfy' or whatever.

So many people have jumped in this thread from all sides and I wager neither side is innocent of contention or arrogance, including myself.

I don't see it as arrogant to be at odds with a doctrine that says God cannot accomplish His own will or desire.

There is the point of contention:

a doctrine that says God cannot accomplish His own will or desire.

I never said He can't
I said He won't, because we are more important, our hearts are of emmence value to Him, He can create all the worship drones He wants, He wants children, and He can only have children who chose to be adopted by Him.

 

[timlamb]

Does God desire that women get abortions for selfish reasons?

Does God desire that 4 year old's get raped by pedophiles?
Murdered?

Does God DESIRE the evil we see all over this world?

This proves that God has more than one will.
He desires perfection and goodness, but that is NOT what
He gets and He surely isn't forcing it.
He desires all will repent, but that's not what He gets.

He came to earth to call sinners to repent too, did they ALL
repent? Nope, His crucifixion is proof of that.

Jesus requested that the cup pass from Him, did it pass?
Nope.

Just becuz God desires something, doesn't mean he does it
or gets it.
He has a PERMISSIVE WILL where He allows the brokenness
and sin nature to operate.

There are studies done on the will(s) of God.

 

[Nadiine]

What does God desire of you? To walk humbly with your God, to LOVE mercy! Did it cross your mind that these things can only happen in a willing spirit.

All three can be true because what God desires is for us to chose to be saved. Look at all the trouble He's gone to, read my last post. Even bringing us here was prearranged to encourage a willful return to righteousness. He could have kicked Satan off earth before He made Adam and Eve, He could have stopped this all in the Garden of Eden, no, He says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock". He has met us more than half way, nothing to do but say yes, and still most won't do it.

What more do you want from Him?

Ya, what the heck is the point of Satan if we all end up
in heaven anyways? Seems pretty futile to allow him to
do all this damage if everybody comes to Him anyways.

Or if we have no choice but to repent and all make the
same choice in the end anyway...

Either way in universalism, the unsaved end up being punished
UNTIL they repent. It's still threat and fear and pain until they
submit their rebellion & finally go God's way.
Is that what a "loving" God would do?

 

[Tissue]

For your last part...

It's like me making cookies for a party. I make some very large ones and others much smaller. I know for a fact the small ones will burn and will be thrown away, but decide to cook them anyway.

Why even make small ones? Why not split the small ones and put them with the big ones, or put all the small ones together to make a big one.

I'm not necessarily a proponent of universalism, b/c Jesus himself clearly talks about hell and eternal torment, and etc, but I hope somehow everyone gets into heaven. Though, I guess people will just say that would be a fairly tale, though there are non-believers who say what we believe is a fairly tale. Go figure.

That image is another good example; why would a reasonable person bother cooking something that will certainly burn? That is, again, irrational.

God doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would bake cookies and, upon seeing that some would burn, decides to cook them anyway.

 

[red77]

What does God desire of you? To walk humbly with your God, to LOVE mercy! Did it cross your mind that these things can only happen in a willing spirit.

All three can be true because what God desires is for us to chose to be saved. Look at all the trouble He's gone to, read my last post. Even bringing us here was prearranged to encourage a willful return to righteousness. He could have kicked Satan off earth before He made Adam and Eve, He could have stopped this all in the Garden of Eden, no, He says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock". He has met us more than half way, nothing to do but say yes, and still most won't do it.

What more do you want from Him?

I read your last post and was going to respond to it but I'll do that here.

Firstly though all three cannot be true because what God desires or wills isn't accomplished. Reasoning as to why it doesn't happen is separate from acknowledging that it doesn't happen itself. Thats why your doctrine can only allow 2 and 3 and not all three.

With regards to your last post then I agree that God would have known that man would fall in advance. It goes further though. You talk about God lovingly allowing his creations to have free will. Why is that loving if the end destination for most is an eternity of suffering? How could it be loving to give man something where his own weakness, fallibility, curiosity and inquisitiveness would lead many to such a fate? Do you think that all of those who don't believe 'choose' it because they don't want God to exist? Many people hope that there's a God and that life has a purpose behind it. Are they all wilfully rebelling?

 

[LightSeaker]

Open Theism?

Please explain "Open Theism". You may have already, if you did, I didn't see it, sorry.

.

 

[LightSeaker]

Ya, what the heck is the point of Satan <snip>

I've been asking myself that same question for years now.

.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Universalism teaches that all people will ultimately be saved no matter what they believe here on earth. You could deny God, hate Him, blaspheme against Him, join a satanist group and murder people and still go to heaven.

 

[2 King]

Please explain "Open Theism". You may have already, if you did, I didn't see it, sorry.

.

I'll PM you an excerpt explaining Open Theism. Unless someone tells you before I do.

 

[Nadiine]

Firstly though all three cannot be true because what God desires or wills isn't accomplished. Reasoning as to why it doesn't happen is separate from acknowledging that it doesn't happen itself. Thats why your doctrine can only allow 2 and 3 and not all three.

Who set this "rule" that all 3 HAVE to come to pass?
Or come to pass in the way you believe they must?

Can God not decide to use force to bring about His will?

He surely can, and He surely DOES! ISince it's not God's
WILL that we sin, this proves that He allows what He
does not want.

By God NOT getting His way, His permissive will is accomplished;
which allows man to do evil and suffer.
His will IS done in "all 3" - one is just another way of accomplishment

The problem here are your expectations on God that don't
exist in reality; and you hinge your theology on that false
premise.
ie. creating a false doctrine that doesn't even have to exist
except in your personalized demand on the rules for God.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Dangers of Universalism:

Illustration of how Universalism can be dangerous:

Universalist: "Listen here Mormon, if you continue to believe that you can become a god, that Satan and Jesus are literal brothers, that God has a body of flesh and bones and has a goddess wife, and that you can become a god of your own world, you know what is going to happen to you? You're going to heaven! So there!"

Mormon: "Sounds good to me."

 

[red77]

Ya, what the heck is the point of Satan if we all end up
in heaven anyways? Seems pretty futile to allow him to
do all this damage if everybody comes to Him anyways.

Or if we have no choice but to repent and all make the
same choice in the end anyway...

Either way in universalism, the unsaved end up being punished
UNTIL they repent. It's still threat and fear and pain until they
submit their rebellion & finally go God's way.
Is that what a "loving" God would do?

Actually Nadiine it isn't necassarily threat, fear and pain involved at all. supposing you were confronted with the truth and that involved seeing all the things for what they really were. You wouldn't be able to hide from it. For some it may well be unpleasant to recognize to begin with but it's hardly like someone torturing somebody until they say what needs to be heard.

And it really doesn't work trying to denigrate the concept even if that was what God did do in relation to what you tell us a "loving" God would do!

Why does it make such a difference to you if all are reconciled to God in the end? Don't you reap the benefits of being a believer in the here and now and the hope that comes with that?

Maybe I'll finally get an answer to this question. Would it annoy you if all are reconciled?

 

[LightSeaker]

Universalism teaches that all people will ultimately be saved no matter what they believe here on earth. You could deny God, hate Him, blaspheme against Him, join a satanist group and murder people and still go to heaven.

For many, salvation isn't the purpose for their loving God. Many leave that judgement up to God. What those people are more interested in is actually growing closer and more aware of God...making God their reality in life...living in the presence of God.

.

 

[red77]

Dangers of Universalism:

Illustration of how Universalism can be dangerous:

Universalist: "Listen here Mormon, if you continue to believe that you can become a god, that Satan and Jesus are literal brothers, that God has a body of flesh and bones and has a goddess wife, and that you can become a god of your own world, you know what is going to happen to you? You're going to heaven! So there!"

Mormon: "Sounds good to me."

Since when did most mormons believe this anyway?!

I suppose you think that universalists say it's ok to do drugs and sleep around as well?

*sigh*

 

[2 King]

Since when did most mormons believe this anyway?!

I suppose you think that universalists say it's ok to do drugs and sleep around as well?

*sigh*

FYI: Mormons do believe that and have for a while