Universalism

[Nadiine]

But being "In" Christ would never reveal anything that was outside His word. The word of God is called our sword, we are to study to show our selves approved. The feel good is nice, I love those moments when the Spirit moves. But Satan and immitate the "feel good" he cannot change the Word.

The Word says we become His children by accepting Him. We are saved through faith in Jesus. When He knocks if we let Him in He will dine with us. He is there but it is all about us moving toward Him, because WE moved away. You guys talk about how we believe God rejects, and God turns away His children. the truth of scripture is about us not going to Him. His sheep hear His voice. He goes looking and calls but we have got to go to Him.

If any are lost it isn't because He lost them it is because they chose to be lost. We all know the way home, but most will chose to set out on their own, and God respects that choice.

Any other "recipee" for experiencing "God's Love" is a false one.
There's only one way to God and that's thru the Son -.
Lots of people design their own god and think they love God.
We go by who HE says He is, not by what we create Him to be
in our own minds so we feel comfy about serving such a God.

 

[Tissue]

I never said we don't get pushed. I believe we all get a Damascus road experience, it's what we do with it that counts.

I never got a Damascus road experience, nor have many Christians I've talked to.

If many Christians don't get it, I'll bet you many more Christians don't either.

 

[Rajni]

There's another option...though this may be a subset of your option 3.
And that's being aware of and living in God's Presence. In His presence is, as you say, a "peace which passes all understanding". Though for me I might add "a Love that passes all understanding" as well.

Constant awareness of His Presence goes a long way in solidifying the peace and the love! (One of my favorite books on the subject of God's presence is "Practicing the Presence of God" by Brother Lawrence)


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[LightSeaker]

Constant awareness of His Presence goes a long way in solidifying the peace and the love! (One of my favorite books on the subject of God's presence is "Practicing the Presence of God" by Brother Lawrence)


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Amen.
Mine as well.

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[timlamb]

I never got a Damascus road experience, nor have many Christians I've talked to.

If many Christians don't get it, I'll bet you many more Christians don't either.

A Damascus Road experience happens to everyone in the form of a failed relationship or sickness or any major life challenge. God knocks us out of the sadle and says depend on ME! What we do with it is the key. For gays it could be that moment of decission to follow scripture or their desires. For me it was finding myself friendless because of addiction and having to tell God "I can't do it myself". For others it may simply be the fear of child raising that takes them toward dependance on God.

The thing is everyone gets faced with at least one moment of decission in their lives and most chose not to follow Jesus.

 

[timlamb]

Constant awareness of His Presence goes a long way in solidifying the peace and the love! (One of my favorite books on the subject of God's presence is "Practicing the Presence of God" by Brother Lawrence)


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We are taught to depend on His promises not His presence. Feelings are useless without the facts as a foundation. Feelings go with the wind and change with the tide...remember all the teahing about a good foundation and Jesus being that foundation, the foundation is the Word of God and that is another name of Jesus.

 

[BlackJack77]

Dear Red,


God did not set it up so that it was unavoidable. He made the provisions for escape for everyone who will repent and receive His gift and serve Him the rest of their days on earth and the power to throw off the old master. The power to be transformed, to be made living witnesses of that transforming power. To live as beacons of light in a dark world and to preach the good news to those who still remain captive. There is no reason for anyone to perish. But the word of God reveals that many still will. Why? Simply because they do not want to bow their knees. They do not want God to tell them what to do or stop them from having their temporal "fun". The ironic thing is, they are already doing another's will, they serve their master, which is not the Lord Jesus Christ, but the enemy of God and their own enemy. They are too blinded by their stiff necked rebellion that they cannot see it. And if we think that God is going to fill His kingdom with a bunch of devil action figures, those proving to be of their father, the devil, we better think twice. God is not going to save anyone who doesn't want to be saved and if they die the first time in their sin, they are guaranteed the second death. There is no resurrection from the second death, there is no repreive from the lake of fire, it is not a purifying fire, it is a destructive fire. The choice has to be made now. Scripture says that TODAY if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts and TODAY is the day of salvation. There is no other day of salvation available after the last exhale on this earth. If that is troublesome, which it should be, then we should spend less time attempting to create a fairy tale ending for everyone that does not exist and start warning everyone, so that at least we know in our hearts, we did what we could do to warn them, and will not have regrets.

If we tell someone that is laying on a train track that a train is coming, and we do everything we can to help them get off the deadly track before the train gets there and they fight us off and remain on the track and get destroyed, whose fault is that? Ours? God's? No. It is the person's fault who did not heed the warning and remained on the deadly track.

Holding fast to the word of truth,
Jack

Nadiine, I don't deny that I myself have difficulties with why intense suffering and pain is allowed to happen. It's something that many people wrestle with either believer or otherwise. I can only trust that every tear will indeed be wiped away and all suffering will cease in the future.

If you want to look at 'the bigger picture' then lets do so. A God who is love creates a world and in advance knows that creating creatures with 'free will' will result in many suffering eternally because He apparently has to set things up in such a way where it's unavoidable. How is this making sense?

Nobody asks to be born into this life. It's hardly a 'gift' as some will preach if it comes with such a black cloud hanging over it.

You can hardly argue about 'conceptions' when you use your own to determine what God should do via your own theology. By your own admission you see more support for annihaltionism but it doesn't seem right to you because people don't pay a conscious penalty. We all use conceptions to some extent. We were born with a brain and the capacity to reason which if God given is there to use, not solely relied upon but not to be ignored either. I don't claim to know the full nature of Divine love by venturing that

I make no apologies for believing that eternal suffering is not only the darkest of the dark but not actually taught either. I was once taught the 'ET' theology in my former church and it wasn't lightly that I began to question it.

And I'd appreciate it if you don't make condescending presumptions regarding my knowledge of sin. You have no call to do that simply because I don't conform to the same doctrine that you ascribe to.

As far as your last paragraph is concerned then I don't see anyone 'absolutely refusing' to accept God. If you are going to try the argument that all atheists/agnostics etc are doing so in this life then I've been round that merry go round enough times already. It's the same ludicrous argument where everone who ends up in hell 'willingly and consciously chooses to go there'. It's patently absurd and all it effectively does is make it easy to blame those who don't make the same choice as you.

It also means that Jesus' sacrifice was a paid debt for all sin - except the one that actually sends people to "hell"....

By the way, I'm still waiting for an answer. Would it annoy you if all people were reconciled to God?

 

[BlackJack77]

Exactly timlamb.

The Scripture declares that the heart is a great deceiver. Our feelings exalted above the knowledge of God are not truth, but deception if they oppose that knowledge that God has revealed through the pens of His Prophets and Apostles, in the form of His written WORD.

What does Ephesians 6:11-17 say? It says to put on the FULL armor of God. Why? So that you may stand. Against what? The wiles of the devil.

What does that mean? And what is the "Full Armor of God?"

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Many in these forums are heading off to battle in the front lines, with NO armor. Jesus, when He was tempted of the devil, spoke the written words of God to thwart Him and defeat Him. If we cast off the Scriptures and lean to our own knowledge and feelings to fight a spiritual battle, guess what? We will lose that battle and not only the battle, but the war for our souls.




Holding fast to the word of Truth,
Jack

We are taught to depend on His promises not His presence. Feelings are useless without the facts as a foundation. Feelings go with the wind and change with the tide...remember all the teahing about a good foundation and Jesus being that foundation, the foundation is the Word of God and that is another name of Jesus.

 

[LightSeaker]

We are taught to depend on His promises not His presence.

In my honest opinion, that approach puts Jesus Christ into a bottle. I'd rather free Christ to be Himself. Jesus Christ is way, way more than promises. He is life itself!!!

All living beings have a presence about them. If God is real, (and He is) He also has a presence about Him as well. If one desires to be closer to God, why not also bring the awareness of His presence into ones life? I see that as part of making God a reality in ones life, today, where He is needed the most. Being aware of God in His Creation and with in ones heart is part of that. Where the Universalism becomes true for me is that I don’t see any boundaries or limits of the reach to God’s presence.

Feelings are useless without the facts as a foundation. Feelings go with the wind and change with the tide...

Perhaps your not understanding what living in the presence of God is about?

remember all the teahing about a good foundation and Jesus being that foundation, the foundation is the Word of God and that is another name of Jesus.

Living in the awareness of God's presence is way more than teachings. God’s presence is God Himself. The teachings point towards the way, the teachings are about God from the outside...but they are not in God in the way that living in His presence is.


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[Tissue]

A Damascus Road experience happens to everyone in the form of a failed relationship or sickness or any major life challenge. God knocks us out of the sadle and says depend on ME! What we do with it is the key. For gays it could be that moment of decission to follow scripture or their desires. For me it was finding myself friendless because of addiction and having to tell God "I can't do it myself". For others it may simply be the fear of child raising that takes them toward dependance on God.

Oh. You just mean 'Everyone has a reason for choosing something.' I agree with that.

That goes for everything, not just conversion. I also have a reason for everything I purchase as well.

 

[Rajni]

We are taught to depend on His promises not His presence. Feelings are useless without the facts as a foundation. Feelings go with the wind and change with the tide...remember all the teahing about a good foundation and Jesus being that foundation, the foundation is the Word of God and that is another name of Jesus.

"Awareness" isn't a feeling, timlamb.
Neither is God's presence a feeling, but rather a reality. You're speaking as though He's not real to you, almost as though He's just a topic you like to argue about online. Is that all He is to you?


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[Rajni]

Exactly timlamb.

The Scripture declares that the heart is a great deceiver. Our feelings exalted above the knowledge of God are not truth, but deception if they oppose that knowledge that God has revealed through the pens of His Prophets and Apostles, in the form of His written WORD.

What does Ephesians 6:11-17 say? It says to put on the FULL armor of God. Why? So that you may stand. Against what? The wiles of the devil.

What does that mean? And what is the "Full Armor of God?"

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Many in these forums are heading off to battle in the front lines, with NO armor. Jesus, when He was tempted of the devil, spoke the written words of God to thwart Him and defeat Him. If we cast off the Scriptures and lean to our own knowledge and feelings to fight a spiritual battle, guess what? We will lose that battle and not only the battle, but the war for our souls.




Holding fast to the word of Truth,
Jack

Sorry you had to go through all that trouble sermonizing about feelings, BlackJack, LOL! It's a little late for this, but you might also want to my post, #858, as well! No one ever said anything about "feelings".





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[LightSeaker]

The Scripture declares that the heart is a great deceiver. Our feelings exalted above the knowledge of God are not truth, but deception if they oppose that knowledge that God has revealed through the pens of His Prophets and Apostles, in the form of His written WORD.,

God is not a "feeling".

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[timlamb]

"Awareness" isn't a feeling, timlamb.
Neither is God's presence a feeling, but rather a reality. You're speaking as though He's not real to you, almost as though He's just a topic you like to argue about online. Is that all He is to you?


.

You take God from being tangible and real to being some heavenly cloud you walk in that blots out all the bad. God is not just an "awareness" He is fact... you leave out the foundation for living. You can';t walk around this world claiming to be "In the presence of God", you are still in the world. Any pretence of that is and emotion or feel good, not a foundation for living.

 

[LightSeaker]

You take God from being tangible and real to being some heavenly cloud you walk in that blots out all the bad. God is not just an "awareness" He is fact... you leave out the foundation for living.

I don’t know about you, by my foundation for living IS in Jesus Christ. Jesus isn’t just in the clouds…He is right here on earth as well. If we just look, we will see Him everywhere we turn our eyes.

You can';t walk around this world claiming to be "In the presence of God", you are still in the world.

Yes, one can both live in the presence of God and at the same time still live in the world. God’s blessings are pretty cool in that way. Come on down and enjoy God’s presence.

Any pretence of that is and emotion or feel good, not a foundation for living.

Living in the awareness of the presence of God for many IS the foundation for living. And I don’t see anything wrong with that. And for myself at least, having God at the center of ones reality is a greatly desired way to live life.

Now I have to ask: Is God only a "belief" to you? Someone to think about and believe in, but not actually be aware of? From my perspective, that seems to be limiting God in a major way.


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[red77]

A Damascus Road experience happens to everyone in the form of a failed relationship or sickness or any major life challenge. God knocks us out of the sadle and says depend on ME! What we do with it is the key. For gays it could be that moment of decission to follow scripture or their desires. For me it was finding myself friendless because of addiction and having to tell God "I can't do it myself". For others it may simply be the fear of child raising that takes them toward dependance on God.

The thing is everyone gets faced with at least one moment of decission in their lives and most chose not to follow Jesus.

Tim, that is NOT a road to Damascus type incident and you know it. Saul wasn't going through a "life challenge". He was blinded and spoke to by God direct! We all have moments in life where we're challenged or fearful of change but that is not the same thing. Do you think that the Damascus incident was allegorical? Was Saul actually just inwardly challenged to look at what he was doing? If not then what you're arguing isn't comparable.

 

[LightSeaker]

Tim, that is NOT a road to Damascus type incident and you know it. Saul wasn't going through a "life challenge". He was blinded and spoke to by God direct! We all have moments in life where we're challenged or fearful of change but that is not the same thing. Do you think that the Damascus incident was allegorical? Was Saul actually just inwardly challenged to look at what he was doing? If not then what you're arguing isn't comparable.

We also have Abraham, who was a friend of God and not only was aware of God's presence, God spoke to him as well.

.

 

[red77]

Any other "recipee" for experiencing "God's Love" is a false one.
There's only one way to God and that's thru the Son -.
Lots of people design their own god and think they love God.
We go by who HE says He is, not by what we create Him to be
in our own minds so we feel comfy about serving such a God.

You go by a doctrine that says who God is, and then say that people that don't conform to it "make up their own God". I'd sooner question a dogma that states from the outset that God can't fulfill His own will and desire. Especially when God apparently works all things out in accordance with His will. You may settle for a doctrine that limits and constrains God to such a degree but not everybody else is going to be inclined to do so...

 

[red77]

Dear Red,


God did not set it up so that it was unavoidable. He made the provisions for escape for everyone who will repent and receive His gift and serve Him the rest of their days on earth and the power to throw off the old master. The power to be transformed, to be made living witnesses of that transforming power. To live as beacons of light in a dark world and to preach the good news to those who still remain captive. There is no reason for anyone to perish. But the word of God reveals that many still will. Why? Simply because they do not want to bow their knees. They do not want God to tell them what to do or stop them from having their temporal "fun". The ironic thing is, they are already doing another's will, they serve their master, which is not the Lord Jesus Christ, but the enemy of God and their own enemy. They are too blinded by their stiff necked rebellion that they cannot see it. And if we think that God is going to fill His kingdom with a bunch of devil action figures, those proving to be of their father, the devil, we better think twice. God is not going to save anyone who doesn't want to be saved and if they die the first time in their sin, they are guaranteed the second death. There is no resurrection from the second death, there is no repreive from the lake of fire, it is not a purifying fire, it is a destructive fire. The choice has to be made now. Scripture says that TODAY if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts and TODAY is the day of salvation. There is no other day of salvation available after the last exhale on this earth. If that is troublesome, which it should be, then we should spend less time attempting to create a fairy tale ending for everyone that does not exist and start warning everyone, so that at least we know in our hearts, we did what we could do to warn them, and will not have regrets.

If we tell someone that is laying on a train track that a train is coming, and we do everything we can to help them get off the deadly track before the train gets there and they fight us off and remain on the track and get destroyed, whose fault is that? Ours? God's? No. It is the person's fault who did not heed the warning and remained on the deadly track.

Holding fast to the word of truth,
Jack

Jack

If a person is lying on a train track then the chances are they're either suicidal or need help. It's like the argument where you tell someone not to go into a house because it's on fire and if they don't heed you it's their fault for going in. It's completely flawed. Anybody who wasn't psychologically impaired would obviously avoid a burning building because they can see the tangible danger.

I'm sorry but the rest of your post is just another example of the cliched argument that everyone who doesn't believe is somehow a devil worshipping consciously rebelling evildoer or some such. It's rather pathetic. It's quite simply pious judgementalism and easier to write off those who suffer this 'hell' as "asking for it". Forgive me if I see no compassion, empathy or love in such a subjectively biased view.

We're all human beings, we're all fallible and we all make mistakes. I believe God can just possibly fulfill His will. You on the other hand ensure that it's an impossibility. Is that supposed to be the 'truth'?

 

[Fixation On God]

LOL!

Rofl!