Universalism

[Zaac]

That certainly isn't true. We like what he says. We just don't think he says quite the same things that you do.

He says what He says. And the Holy Spirit is telling me that yall just afraid for it to be the way that the Holy Bible says it will be. SO yall put together what you think is more "Godly" an alternative.

Let me put it this way; I am very close to being unable to affirm belief in God. A God who would enact partial salvation with an eternal hell, I am almost entirely unable to believe exists (and will likely soon be fully unable). In such an environment, sympathy toward universal reconciliation is all that keeps me in the church. How is that a stumbling block?

I am sorry for your crisis of faith. But your crisis of faith is no reason to rewrite Scripture. Salvation is COMPLETE. It is available to ALL who want it. Some don't want it and a just God let's them CHOOSE to not want it.

There does not have to be a cosmic balance between your sympathetic leanings and God's justice.

Universal reconciliation still preaches the need for salvation, and speaks of God's mercy and love and grace. How is that a stumbling block?

Need for salvation from what? If you're gonna eventually be saved anyway, where's the impetus to confess and repent of sin now? The whole concept of universal salvation goes against the need for repentance and the need for a Savior to rescue us from our sin problem. That's a stumbling block.

Universal reconciliation recognizes the value of evangelism and mission work, and results in an increased humility of one's own story, and an emphasis upon the value of others. How is that a stumbling block?

Evangelism for what? Please explain to me exactly how it is yall explain the need for a Savior to folks while telling them that everyone will eventually be saved? What's the need to change? They can maintain the status quo and just wait. Might as welllthrow out the Great Commission and the rest of God's word. That's a stumbling block.

What we are finding here is part of the classic trend in history. Because you do not recognize universal reconciliation as part of your story, you fear it as an outsider, and seek to declare it anathema, thereby exiling it.

The Bible says 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 3:14-15

I have no fear of false teaching. I just identify as what it is just as God's word says.

Take caution. This was the same pattern that placed Jesus upon the cross.

Take caution. The Bible speaks of such false teachings and what will happen to those false teachers.

 

[Tissue]

He says what He says. And the Holy Spirit is telling me that yall just afraid for it to be the way that the Holy Bible says it will be. SO yall put together what you think is more "Godly" an alternative.

I guess the discussion is over then. Can't really have an open discussion with someone who's got the Spirit whispering factoids in his or her ear.

I am sorry for your crisis of faith. But your crisis of faith is no reason to rewrite Scripture. Salvation is COMPLETE. It is available to ALL who want it. Some don't want it and a just God let's them CHOOSE to not want it.

There does not have to be a cosmic balance between your sympathetic leanings and God's justice.

You might not think so, but then, you haven't exactly been successful thus far in seeing things from my perspective, so why start now?

Need for salvation from what? If you're gonna eventually be saved anyway, where's the impetus to confess and repent of sin now? The whole concept of universal salvation goes against the need for repentance and the need for a Savior to rescue us from our sin problem. That's a stumbling block.

You haven't been reading very closely. We recognize the sin problem. We recognize Jesus as the answer to that sin problem. We also think that the answer to the sin problem was final, and not just some metaphysical, loose thing that must be 'accepted' to have power.

Evangelism for what? Please explain to me exactly how it is yall explain the need for a Savior to folks while telling them that everyone will eventually be saved? What's the need to change? They can maintain the status quo and just wait. Might as welllthrow out the Great Commission and the rest of God's word. That's a stumbling block.

Because, as you and others have agreed, and as has been the tradition of Christianity, and as I have repeated multiple times in this thread, salvation is about far more than just getting out of hell.

Take caution. The Bible speaks of such false teachings and what will happen to those false teachers.

I wouldn't be suggesting these things if I thought they were false. I think God will be sympathetic toward someone who is trying to get things right.

 

[Zaac]

I guess the discussion is over then. Can't really have an open discussion with someone who's got the Spirit whispering factoids in his or her ear.

I guess so. I wouldn't want to be guilty of giving a platform to false teaching.

You might not think so, but then, you haven't exactly been successful thus far in seeing things from my perspective, so why start now?

I'm called of God to have a Christ-centric perspective, not a man-centric one. So you're right in that regard. You will NEVER catch me trying to conform God to somebody's view. The somebody needs to conform to God's view.

You haven't been reading very closely. We recognize the sin problem. We recognize Jesus as the answer to that sin problem. We also think that the answer to the sin problem was final, and not just some metaphysical, loose thing that must be 'accepted' to have power.

Again, the truth lies in the fact that Jesus Christ has not returned. If what yall say is true, there's no need for Him to have held off returning. If what yall say is true, there was no need for Him to leave in the first place.

Of course the answer to the sin problem was final. It was final for the folks who would do as He says: REPENT and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

If the repentance and placing of faith in Him as Lord and Savior doesn't take place, the sin remains infinite and unforgiven.

Because, as you and others have agreed, and as has been the tradition of Christianity, and as I have repeated multiple times in this thread, salvation is about far more than just getting out of hell.

Sure it is. But it is STILL about not having to go to an eternal Lake of Fire. God's word presents salvation as the way of not being tossed into the Lake of Fire in the first place.

He DOES NOT present that salvation as a method of getting people who have rejected Him out of the Lake of Fire.

And for yall to teach such a thing and tell folks that everyone will eventually be saved is false teaching and perhaps the greatest stumbling block imaginable.

I made a thread about it a long time ago. And it needs to rear it's head again.

But with Christians teaching this kind of false doctrine, there's no need for the devil to even lift a finger.

I wouldn't be suggesting these things if I thought they were false. I think God will be sympathetic toward someone who is trying to get things right.

What God's word says is Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1


So if you think God is going to be sympathetic with these false teachings and stumbling blocks while you're "trying to get things right" instead of preaching what He says, think again.

Yall WILL give an account for this false teaching.

If yall are not 100% sure and ready to stand before God and give an account for this thing that will cause so many to stumble right into hell, I would advise each of you to stop putting it forth as the truth.

The way, non-universal salvation, that you used to teach glorified Jesus Christ and left every man responsible for repenting and choosing Christ himself.

Wheras this universal salvation that yall teach now does not point to repentance or to Christ.

He does not tell us in His word And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' Acts 2:21 just to turn around and make Himself into a liar by allowing those who have rejected Him and not called upon His name to be saved from what He says must justly be their punishment.

I truly wish that all would be saved. But that just ain't consistent with what God's word says.

Satan wouldn't be parading around looking for folks to devour if all were gonna eventually be saved.

 

[Tissue]

As I said, we're wasting our time. You and I will get nowhere on this subject.

 

[Rajni]

Doesn't it say in revelation that those thrown into the pit will suffer day and night for all eternity? I thought it also said something about the pit being sealed after the beast was thrown in.

Anything that's said to take place during the day/night cycle would
have to be temporary due to the fact that the day/night cycle itself
is only temporary (Rev 22:5).



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[Rajni]

Well, I would think when the bible says eternity it means eternity. It's really the only source which can speak of eternity in my mind. I fail to see why it would mean anything else.

That would be true if Scripture had been penned in English. In
Habakkuk, the "everlasting" mountains were shattered. It depends
less on the adjective "eternal"/"everlasting" and more on the noun
to which that adjective is referring.

 

[Rajni]

The problem with this is that it is giving 'another' way to be saved. The scriptures are clear that it is ONLY in and through Christ that one can be saved.

If all mankind could be saved just listening and obeying the internal law written on the heart then there would be no need for Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

Amen.
Our rebirth, just like our physical birth, is an Executive Decision
made higher up the Ladder. Like the reality of gravity, it doesn't
owe it's existence or effectiveness to our believing in it first,
however, like gravity, it behooves us to believe in it so we don't
continue injuring ourselves behaving as though it wasn't real.



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[Zaac]

That would be true if Scripture had been penned in English. In
Habakkuk, the "everlasting" mountains were shattered. It depends
less on the adjective "eternal"/"everlasting" and more on the noun
to which that adjective is referring.

Again Just WOW!

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Tim. 2:14

The pure glibness of placing such a stumbling block that may usher folks into hell in the path of unbelievers over a part of speech is incredible! (smh)

 

[Tissue]

Again Just WOW!

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Tim. 2:14

The pure glibness of placing such a stumbling block that may usher folks into hell in the path of unbelievers over a part of speech is incredible! (smh)

The exclusion of homosexuality from Christianity is based upon parts of speech. It's not like Universalism is only using one verse. As pointed out earlier, we are using far more than the few used to condemn homosexuals.

When in doubt, mock. Ja?

 

[Zaac]

The exclusion of homosexuality from Christianity is based upon parts of speech. It's not like Universalism is only using one verse. As pointed out earlier, we are using far more than the few used to condemn homosexuals.

When in doubt, mock. Ja?

So your defense is because God calls homosexual sex sin, universalism is truth?

 

[Rajni]

The pure glibness of placing such a stumbling block that may usher folks into hell in the path of unbelievers over a part of speech is incredible! (smh)

Since I'm not a follower of Arminius, I don't subscribe to the belief
that one's words affect anyone's salvation any more than works
do. So if the above statement is an attempt to guilt-trip those
who don't agree with you into silence, it doesn't work.

If you would be so kind as to address the actual argument, that
would be fantastic! You do, after all, have a well-thought-out
response to it, yes? Here it is again for your convenience:

That would be true if Scripture had been penned in
English. In Habakkuk, the "everlasting" mountains were
shattered. It depends less on the adjective
"eternal"/"everlasting" and more on the noun
to which that adjective is referring.
​

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[Tissue]

So your defense is because God calls homosexual sex sin, universalism is truth?

It's posts like these, Zaac, that makes me wonder if we'll ever engage in an open, rational discussion.

 

[Rajni]

Of course the answer to the sin problem was final. It was final for the folks who would do as He says: REPENT and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

If the repentance and placing of faith in Him as Lord and Savior doesn't take place, the sin remains infinite and unforgiven.

Another thing about repentance – this too is something God does in
us and not something for which we can be given credit:

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince
and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and
forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and
glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles
granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the
acknowledging of the truth;

Hebrews 12:17
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have
inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no
place of repentance, though he sought it carefully
with tears.
​

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[timlamb]

Just thought I'd get back on topic with some new scripture to discuss.

Romans 12:18-20 (New American Standard Bible)

18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
20"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."


2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jude 1:6-8 (New American Standard Bible)



6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.

Nahum 1: 2A jealous and avenging God is the LORD;
The LORD is avenging and wrathful
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
3The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished

Psalm 58:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)


9Before your pots can feel the fire of thorns
He will sweep them away with a whirlwind, the green and the burning alike.
10The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11And men will say, "Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
Surely there is a God who judges on earth!"

There IS God who judges the earth and the righteous will rejoice in this

 

[Zaac]

Since I'm not a follower of Arminius, I don't subscribe to the belief
that one's words affect anyone's salvation any more than works
do. So if the above statement is an attempt to guilt-trip those
who don't agree with you into silence, it doesn't work.

Arminius? What you bring him up for??? And it's not a guilt trip. If you're ready to stand before God and give an account for this lie that is leading folks to not repent and seek Jesus as Lord and Savior, you keep doing you.

If you would be so kind as to address the actual argument, that
would be fantastic! You do, after all, have a well-thought-out
response to it, yes? Here it is again for your convenience:

Ain't no argument. Universal salvation is the devil's lie.

 

[Rajni]

Arminius? What you bring him up for??? And it's not a guilt trip. If you're ready to stand before God and give an account for this lie that is leading folks to not repent and seek Jesus as Lord and Savior, you keep doing you.



Ain't no argument. Universal salvation is the devil's lie.

Whatever you say, Zaac!



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[preistsplace]

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
So here we have God telling his followers not to take vengeance. If the Disciples were to take vengeance then would they have been any different than the Pagan cultures that surrounded them? If your enemy is hungry feed him,if your enemy is thirsty give him a drink. In other words be blameless so that the witnesses around you will have seen an be unable to deny that you are sent by God.By doing so though shall heap coals of fire on his head. Ok here we are seeing a little symbolism... you will heap burning coals on his head
But in verse 19 ..Vengeance is mine,I will repay, says the Lord...Obviously the victim is not who is heaping the coals It is God's punishment However it is not mentioned in any manner in this verse the duration of the punishment and that is what we are debating....

 

[timlamb]

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
So here we have God telling his followers not to take vengeance. If the Disciples were to take vengeance then would they have been any different than the Pagan cultures that surrounded them? If your enemy is hungry feed him,if your enemy is thirsty give him a drink. In other words be blameless so that the witnesses around you will have seen an be unable to deny that you are sent by God.By doing so though shall heap coals of fire on his head. Ok here we are seeing a little symbolism... you will heap burning coals on his head
But in verse 19 ..Vengeance is mine,I will repay, says the Lord...Obviously the victim is not who is heaping the coals It is God's punishment However it is not mentioned in any manner in this verse the duration of the punishment and that is what we are debating....

The bible speaks many times of the vengeance and wrath, and not once does it speak of a redemption after the fact. Important issue, that, seems God would have told us in certain terms not by the lack of terms.

 

[timlamb]

I find it very interesting that God saw fit to say this twice:

1. Proverbs 14:12
   There is a way which seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death.
   
2. Proverbs 16:25
   There is a way which seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death.

Just cuz it seems right doesn't mean a thing.

 

[timlamb]

2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I don't know how anyone could mistake this for allogory

Who gets punished, who is the object of His vengeance? "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" And as it says in Romans 1, men are without excuse because He has made Himself known to us.