Universalism

[Tissue]

Boy, ain't that the truth. the same verses misrepresented over and over to deny the word of God and the need for repentance. Because some people don't think God has the right to punish rebelous sinners who curse Him.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I see what you tried to do there.

 

[Zaac]

If that is your attitude, then you have no business in this thread. Do yourself a favor and leave. We are looking for intelligent, open-minded individuals to mull this over with. If you have already made your conclusion without engaging in argument, we aren't interested in you.

Neither, for that matter, will be the vast majority of seekers.

You sound like a true liberal. Mull over what? God has spoken. Like the gay people and the adulterers, yall ain't like what He says, so you're rewriting Scripture.

Seen it all before.

 

[preistsplace]

Doesn't it say in revelation that those thrown into the pit will suffer day and night for all eternity? I thought it also said something about the pit being sealed after the beast was thrown in.

It says forever and ever.....can you add or take away from eternity apparently it is possible with forever
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. KJV

Rev 20:10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages. Rotherhams

Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."
CLV if you nread all the posts you will find that I have already posted on this topic...

 

[Tissue]

You sound like a true liberal. Mull over what? God has spoken. Like the gay people and the adulterers, yall ain't like what He says, so you're rewriting Scripture.

Yes, I am liberal.

No, God has not spoken; you've done a lot of it for him, but in my walk with Him, you aren't sounding a whole lot like the One I've come to know.

We haven't re-written Scripture; we are providing an alternate interpretation. Look up any commentary of value and they will list alternate interpretations.

The problem is, you, as a fundamentalist, cannot grapple with the idea that you might be wrong. That one of the foundations you have built this restrictive, dominating house of cards upon is faulty? This very thought can shatter your world. The philosophy upon which your worldview is built is long-dead, but you don't even know it. And thus, you wildly lash out at anyone who disagrees with you, and claim the divine right to do so (on account of souls lost, or God-speech, or fill-in-the-blank).

You will find a substantial number of people to agree with you wherever you go. But you will find a much greater number of people outside your clique that find your stance untenable, irrational, and irrelevant. Fundamentalism grew out of a desire to be irrelevant, and it is fulfilling that motive every day.

Seen it all before.

I find this very comforting. Fundamentalism has long been the 'vocal' portion of Christianity, much to the embarrassment of moderates and liberals. That you've heard arguments like this before gives me a good deal of hope.

 

[Zaac]

Boy, ain't that the truth. the same verses misrepresented over and over to deny the word of God and the need for repentance. Because some people don't think God has the right to punish rebelous sinners who curse Him.

This is crazy. There is a whole movement of folks basically running around doing away with the need of confessing sin and repenting and basically doing away with the reason Jesus went to the Cross.

This is just incredible. I have got to show some other pastors this confirmation of Scripture.

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 Peter 2:1-3

 

[MarkSB]

Revelation is a hectic book filled with various images that are notoriously difficult to interpret.

It is also wildly poetic. How often do we say "I've been working at this forever, and still haven't gotten anywhere"? We don't actually mean forever; we just mean a really, really long time.

Is this the right interpretation of Revelation? I think probably. Others might not. Nevertheless, our interpretation is, at the very least, valid.

Well, I would think when the bible says eternity it means eternity. It's really the only source which can speak of eternity in my mind. I fail to see why it would mean anything else.

Your interpretations on this are as loose as your interpretations regarding marriage.

I do agree that alot of the time when you take things back to the original language it can be saying something quite different, and the translations leave alot of room for error. It would be interesting to take all the scriptures which have been posted back to their original language.

 

[Tissue]

Well, I would think when the bible says eternity it means eternity. It's really the only source which can speak of eternity in my mind. I fail to see why it would mean anything else.

There's a lot of poetry in Scripture we don't take at face-value linguistically.

Your interpretations on this are as loose as your interpretations regarding marriage.

Good to be consistent, I suppose.

I do agree that alot of the time when you take things back to the original language it can be saying something quite different, and the translations leave alot of room for error. It would be interesting to take all the scriptures which have been posted back to their original language.

Yes; I think that's a severe deficiency in our conversation. Unfortunately, I know nothing about Greek or Hebrew.

 

[preistsplace]

This is crazy. There is a whole movement of folks basically running around doing away with the need of confessing sin and repenting and basically doing away with the reason Jesus went to the Cross.

This is just incredible. I have got to show some other pastors this confirmation of Scripture.

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 Peter 2:1-3

I think that you should be full aware that Jesus was against the Orthodoxy in his day...was looked at as a liberal.As far as that scripture goes It could just as easily be talking about your theological worldveiw after all universalism wasn't officially condemned as heretic until around the 5th century....

 

[Zaac]

Yes, I am liberal.

No, God has not spoken; you've done a lot of it for him, but in my walk with Him, you aren't sounding a whole lot like the One I've come to know.

We haven't re-written Scripture; we are providing an alternate interpretation. Look up any commentary of value and they will list alternate interpretations.

Oh He has spoken. The problem with you and all the other liberals is that you don't like what He says. It is the utmost of a shame that folks are so set on having an alternate interpretation that they are willing to place this incredible stumbling block in the way of an unsaved world.

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 Peter 2:1-3

 

[Zaac]

I think that you should be full aware that Jesus was against the Orthodoxy in his day...was looked at as a liberal.As far as that scripture goes It could just as easily be talking about your theological worldveiw after all universalism wasn't officially condemned as heretic until around the 5th century....

The views Jesus held were consistent with what Scripture already said. The views yall hold are not.

 

[Tissue]

Oh He has spoken. The problem with you and all the other liberals is that you don't like what He says.

That certainly isn't true. We like what he says. We just don't think he says quite the same things that you do.

It is the utmost of a shame that folks are so set on having an alternate interpretation that they are willing to place this incredible stumbling block in the way of an unsaved world.

Let me put it this way; I am very close to being unable to affirm belief in God. A God who would enact partial salvation with an eternal hell, I am almost entirely unable to believe exists (and will likely soon be fully unable). In such an environment, sympathy toward universal reconciliation is all that keeps me in the church. How is that a stumbling block?

Universal reconciliation still preaches the need for salvation, and speaks of God's mercy and love and grace. How is that a stumbling block?

Universal reconciliation recognizes the value of evangelism and mission work, and results in an increased humility of one's own story, and an emphasis upon the value of others. How is that a stumbling block?

What we are finding here is part of the classic trend in history. Because you do not recognize universal reconciliation as part of your story, you fear it as an outsider, and seek to declare it anathema, thereby exiling it.

Take caution. This was the same pattern that placed Jesus upon the cross.

 

[Tissue]

The views Jesus held were consistent with what Scripture already said. The views yall hold are not.

Oh, but the teachers of the time said they weren't, and that's because they didn't appear to be. But once the Scriptures were properly understood, once they were re-interpreted, everything worked out.

 

[MarkSB]

There's a lot of poetry in Scripture we don't take at face-value linguistically.

Well, if that's your interpretation - but as has been discussed many times I think scripture is for the most part, pretty clear on what is to be taken literally or not. I also find revelation to be more allegorical than it is poetic.

I would advise you against such views, but doubt it will do any good.

 

[rcorlew]

So then what about all the people that died in various parts of the world before they could hear the Gospel and accept Christ, Are they in hell just because they didnt hear,and even if they lived decent lives. The truth you teach has driven some good people insane. And as far as what you are saying about Jesus wasting his time...Well you have completely missed the point ...The point is Jesus came and gave his life to save The World, If he had not have Given his life we would still be under the law and every one would still be guilty.....The only thing we universalists are guilty of is seeing the absolute and glorious victory of Christ. We dare to believe that God Loves and cares about all of his creation and is willing toi save those that are still lost .Your argument there is like saying that because christ Gave HIs blood on the Cross that Christians under Grace have an unlimited license to sin, which is wholly untrue.All men must proceed through Christ to salvation and in God's due time all will accept it........

God is just and holy and loving, to answer your question, the law is written on our hearts and it is called our conscience.

Romans 2:12-16
For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as sinned within Law will be judged through Law.

For not the hearers of the Law are just with God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,

who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,

in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.

If you do not accept Christ you will be judged according to the law, this much is very clear, but God also has a plan for those who do not ever hear the name Jesus and that is they will be judged against the law written on their hearts.

Folks, it is like Zaac keeps repeating, it is not that hard if God wants us to be His children He will spell it out and make it very easy to understand.

Mark 10:15 Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a child may not enter into it, never.

Think of yourself as a child of God rather than some highly intellectual scholar, the wisdom of God is foolishness to man and His thoughts are higher than ours.

 

[heavensprings]

God is just and holy and loving, to answer your question, the law is written on our hearts and it is called our conscience.

Romans 2:12-16
For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as sinned within Law will be judged through Law.

For not the hearers of the Law are just with God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,

who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,

in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.

If you do not accept Christ you will be judged according to the law, this much is very clear, but God also has a plan for those who do not ever hear the name Jesus and that is they will be judged against the law written on their hearts.

Folks, it is like Zaac keeps repeating, it is not that hard if God wants us to be His children He will spell it out and make it very easy to understand.

Mark 10:15 Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a child may not enter into it, never.

Think of yourself as a child of God rather than some highly intellectual scholar, the wisdom of God is foolishness to man and His thoughts are higher than ours.

The problem with this is that it is giving 'another' way to be saved. The scriptures are clear that it is ONLY in and through Christ that one can be saved.

If all mankind could be saved just listening and obeying the internal law written on the heart then there would be no need for Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

 

[preistsplace]

God is just and holy and loving, to answer your question, the law is written on our hearts and it is called our conscience.

Romans 2:12-16
For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as sinned within Law will be judged through Law.

For not the hearers of the Law are just with God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,

who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,

very good,

in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.

If you do not accept Christ you will be judged according to the law, this much is very clear, but God also has a plan for those who do not ever hear the name Jesus and that is they will be judged against the law written on their hearts.

ok now we have solved part of the problem

Folks, it is like Zaac keeps repeating, it is not that hard if God wants us to be His children He will spell it out and make it very easy to understand.

If.....so there are some he doesn't want?

Mark 10:15 Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a child may not enter into it, never.

So can you tell me where the Bible says we only have this short life to decide....

Think of yourself as a child of God rather than some highly intellectual scholar, the wisdom of God is foolishness to man and His thoughts are higher than ours.

His thoughts and his ways are higher than ours however read the context there he is speaking about his mercy.........I do think of myself as a Child of God,its just that I do not agree with every thing the Orthodoxy claims is there......And yes my beliefes are based on scripture......

 

[preistsplace]

The problem with this is that it is giving 'another' way to be saved. The scriptures are clear that it is ONLY in and through Christ that one can be saved.

If all mankind could be saved just listening and obeying the internal law written on the heart then there would be no need for Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

I am pretty sure that you have not always followed that voice to the letter,we all have, or is there one among us without sin?So we can only be saved by Christ just that perhaps he shows himself in the end and gives those that haven't accepted another chance under more favorable circumstances, that perhaps those who have rejected him will be punished and will not get out until they have paid the uttermost farthing.....

 

[preistsplace]

Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isa 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
Isa 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
Isa 49:11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
Isa 49:12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
Isa 49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
Read this passage very carefully, here it says exactly what the work of the millennial kingdom is. Setting free the prisoners and calling those in darkness into the light.

 

[Nadiine]

I think that you should be full aware that Jesus was against the Orthodoxy in his day...was looked at as a liberal.As far as that scripture goes It could just as easily be talking about your theological worldveiw after all universalism wasn't officially condemned as heretic until around the 5th century....

really? Would that be 'liberal' in a general sense?
Or what Liberalism has morphed into over decades?

That "liberal" embraced the scriptures as holy, absolute truth,
from God, authoratative, and mandatory to believe for salvation.

(see Luke 16:19-31
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment
29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”)

Also, Jesus WAS Orthodox! It's the Pharisees who twisted the
orthodox into heretical legalism which is not orthodoxy, it's sin and it's NOT what God taught.

One can claim rules and works without knowing the rulemaker.
(Mat. 7:21-23)

That kind of liberal?

 

[Jase]

Yall know this thread is shameless. There is absolutely no way to reconcile the WHOLE of Scripture with this notion of universal salvation.

Not even looking at the previous 6000 years, but yall are saying that God is gonna put folks through all that He does during the seven year Tribulation period just to turn around and say "I'm gonna save you anyway?"

JUST WOW!

This thread needs to be blocked from nonbelievers reading it.

You mean that tribulation theology found in one book that nobody even wanted in the Bible, and for that reason was shoved to the back by Martin Luther? Are you also aware that there is another Jewish Revelation that makes far more sense than the hallucination version we have now?