Universalism

timlamb · Aug 1, 2009

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Because we know that not all suffer physical death I believe it is safe to say that it is in Adam that those who die, die. And it is in Christ that those who live, live.

1 Co 15:51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

timlamb said:
Because we know that not all suffer physical death I believe it is safe to say that it is in Adam that those who die, die. And it is in Christ that those who live, live.

1 Co 15:51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

I believe the passage states that As in Adam all shall die, as in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

LightSeaker · Aug 1, 2009

timlamb said:
This gets more bizarre all the time

Bizarre is in the eye of the beholder.

The source of the activity of God within each soul is God breathed...
Genesis 2:7
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

And what is the image that each soul is created to look like?
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image...

timlamb, somehow, and I don't know how you could do it, but you will need to kill these two very important verses about God creating man in order for me to not see each soul as an activity of God.

.

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

timlamb said:
If this life is not about our choises, or ambitions and our faith then why are we here. If god is going to take everyone aside and punish them for mistakes until they submit then why put us through all this. What we do here has an eternal purpose, and that is what we learn from scripture.

So therefore in your opinion the only worthwhile reason there can be for temporal existence on this plane is to make a choice that affects eternal destiny in the next? It only makes sense if a high number suffer through eternity because you find it cruel that we exist where suffering happens in the here and now? Sheesh....

My dictionary has four definitions for reconcile. Give it to me in the context of scripture so we can settle this.

[/QUOTE]

Here's Miriam Websters:

reconcile - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

If everything is reconciled to God then what definition makes sense Tim?

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

Nadiine said:
what you see here AGAIN is more READ IN theology to create
doctrine that doesn't exist.

same old thing

Yes, we really do make it up by thinking that God can reconcile all things to Himself, I wonder where we could have got that idea from....

LJSGM · Aug 1, 2009

Col 1:20 And 2532, having made peace 1517 through 1223 the blood 129 of his 846 cross 4716, by 1223 him 846 to reconcile 604 all things 3956 unto 1519 himself 846; by 1223 him 846, [I say], whether 1535 [they be] things in 1909 earth 1093, or 1535 things in 1722 heaven 3772.

Col 1:21 And 2532 you 5209, that were 5607 sometime 4218 alienated 526 and 2532 enemies 2190 in [your] mind 1271 by 1722 wicked 4190 works 2041, yet 1161 now 3570 hath he reconciled 604

Col 1:22 In 1722 the body 4983 of his 846 flesh 4561 through 1223 death 2288, to present 3936 you 5209 holy 40 and 2532 unblameable 299 and 2532 unreproveable 410 in his 846 sight 2714:
apokatallassō
1) to reconcile completely
2) to reconcile back again
3) bring back a former state of harmony

Nadiine · Aug 1, 2009

LJSGM said:
Col 1:20 And 2532, having made peace 1517 through 1223 the blood 129 of his 846 cross 4716, by 1223 him 846 to reconcile 604 all things 3956 unto 1519 himself 846; by 1223 him 846, [I say], whether 1535 [they be] things in 1909 earth 1093, or 1535 things in 1722 heaven 3772.

Col 1:21 And 2532 you 5209, that were 5607 sometime 4218 alienated 526 and 2532 enemies 2190 in [your] mind 1271 by 1722 wicked 4190 works 2041, yet 1161 now 3570 hath he reconciled 604

Col 1:22 In 1722 the body 4983 of his 846 flesh 4561 through 1223 death 2288, to present 3936 you 5209 holy 40 and 2532 unblameable 299 and 2532 unreproveable 410 in his 846 sight 2714:
apokatallassō
1) to reconcile completely
2) to reconcile back again
3) bring back a former state of harmony

The key word I noticed here was "THINGS" (all things).
emphasized in red

When I look that up, it says this:
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody?
If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sortssome Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

Spurgeon's statement on this is intriguing in that it means
exactly what the definition states -
some of all types.

This is especially fitting when we have so many verses
that support it directly by stating there's an unpardonable
sin, that the 2nd death is Gehenna, those who live in
perpetual works of iniquity do not enter the Kingdom,
one MUST be born again, etc. etc. etc. etc.

We have it here yet again where one has to READ IN
a belief to make something true, it doesn't say it,
esp. when other doctrines & teachings refute it
repeatedly

timlamb · Aug 1, 2009

red77 said:
I believe the passage states that As in Adam all shall die, as in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

NASB: 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

So, first Christ, then those who are His, then...

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father,

timlamb · Aug 1, 2009

Nadiine said:
The key word I noticed here was "THINGS" (all things).
emphasized in red

When I look that up, it says this:
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody?
If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sortssome Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

Spurgeon's statement on this is intriguing in that it means
exactly what the definition states -
some of all types.

This is especially fitting when we have so many verses
that support it directly by stating there's an unpardonable
sin, that the 2nd death is Gehenna, those who live in
perpetual works of iniquity do not enter the Kingdom,
one MUST be born again, etc. etc. etc. etc.

We have it here yet again where one has to READ IN
a belief to make something true, it doesn't say it,
esp. when other doctrines & teachings refute it
repeatedly

Thanks Nadiine, I needed a good shot of truth in this storm of deception.

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

Nadiine said:
The key word I noticed here was "THINGS" (all things).
emphasized in red

When I look that up, it says this:
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody?
If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sortssome Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

Spurgeon's statement on this is intriguing in that it means
exactly what the definition states -
some of all types.

This is especially fitting when we have so many verses
that support it directly by stating there's an unpardonable
sin, that the 2nd death is Gehenna, those who live in
perpetual works of iniquity do not enter the Kingdom,
one MUST be born again, etc. etc. etc. etc.

We have it here yet again where one has to READ IN
a belief to make something true, it doesn't say it,
esp. when other doctrines & teachings refute it
repeatedly

Oh this is priceless! The passage states that after having made peace through the blood of the cross God will reconcile all things be they in Heaven or earth, but it's still impossible for God to do this. what was the blood of the cross for Nadiine? To reconcile rocks? The hypocrisy of your allegations to those who ascribe to a different theology regarding 'twisting' and 'reading into' verses is staggering. There's a plethora of verses that support God fulfilling His will but oh no, that can't happen. Unreal

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

timlamb said:
NASB: 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

So, first Christ, then those who are His, then...

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father,

Everyone is His, each in his own order. ALL shall be made alive. To state otherwise would be to twist the verse correct? How can all not be made alive in Christ?

timlamb · Aug 1, 2009

=red77;52535196]So therefore in your opinion the only worthwhile reason there can be for temporal existence on this plane is to make a choice that affects eternal destiny in the next? It only makes sense if a high number suffer through eternity because you find it cruel that we exist where suffering happens in the here and now? Sheesh....

This is funny how people like to tell you your own opinion...

Here's Miriam Websters:

reconcile - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

If everything is reconciled to God then what definition makes sense Tim?

...but when you ask them for scripture they give you anything but...

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

timlamb said:
Thanks Nadiine, I needed a good shot of truth in this storm of deception.

Yes, lets celebrate the doctrine that says God can't do what He wills and desires despite stating that He works all things out in accordance with the purpose of His will!

Those poor deceived evil "unis" who heretically claim that God can do it, for shame!

Nadiine · Aug 1, 2009

red77 said:
Yes, we really do make it up by thinking that God can reconcile all things to Himself, I wonder where we could have got that idea from....

you surely can't get it from the many verses that defy your
read in theory -

when other verses refute our ideas about a passage, then we
go back to the drawing board to see what ELSE it can
mean, not stick to what's refuted.

timlamb · Aug 1, 2009

red77 said:
Everyone is His, each in his own order. ALL shall be made alive. To state otherwise would be to twist the verse correct? How can all not be made alive in Christ?

John 1: 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,

He came to the world, then specifically to His own, "and those who were His own did not recieve Him"

And the verse does not say "All shall be made alive", it is you who twist scripture.

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

Nadiine said:
you surely can't get it from the many verses that defy your
read in theory -

when other verses refute our ideas about a passage, then we
go back to the drawing board to see what ELSE it can
mean, not stick to what's refuted.

You mean like the verse thats just been under question and implicitly states that God not only plans to but will reconcile all? If by going to a drawing board means preaching a doctrine that says God can't do what He wills then you might want to go back to the drawing board once more. Every time you talk about people limiting God with their dogmatic boxes its simply a projection of your dogma coming to the surface.

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

timlamb said:
John 1: 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,

He came to the world, then specifically to His own, "and those who were His own did not recieve Him"

And the verse does not say "All shall be made alive", it is you who twist scripture.

Oh sorry, all WILL be made alive. Have I still twisted the verse?

red77 · Aug 1, 2009

timlamb said:
This is funny how people like to tell you your own opinion...

Was there something wrong with this assessment. It seemed to be what you were saying and not my opinion. Am I wrong?

...but when you ask them for scripture they give you anything but...

Come off it Tim. the whole passage has just been posted on this thread so stop obfuscating and answer the question!

timlamb · Aug 1, 2009

red77 said:
You mean like the verse thats just been under question and implicitly states that God not only plans to but will reconcile all? If by going to a drawing board means preaching a doctrine that says God can't do what He wills then you might want to go back to the drawing board once more. Every time you talk about people limiting God with their dogmatic boxes its simply a projection of your dogma coming to the surface.

And where is this mystery verse. I have asked for it in context a couple times, but nothing

timlamb · Aug 1, 2009

red77 said:
Was there something wrong with this assessment. It seemed to be what you were saying and not my opinion. Am I wrong?

Come off it Tim. the whole passage has just been posted on this thread so stop obfuscating and answer the question!

obfuscating Wow, good word
I like that.

but I'm still waiting for the scripture in context.

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