Universalism

[timlamb]

From red 77: If you are still open to questioning theology then thats good. I don't mean to imply that 'every' person who believes in eternal hell does so solely because they've swallowed whats taught by the modern orthodox church. In my experience I've tended to find that those who ascribe to a more "unorthodox" viewpoint are those that have questioned the traditional teaching the more "evangelical" churches preach as the message.

You have got to do more than question. Your only reason to question orthodoxy is your emotional viewpoint. All the scripture you quote is a verse here and a verse there, all with a supportable interpretation from both sides. But the verses such as Revelation 22 are complete chapters and undeniably support the eternal punishment.

It's not an absolute rule of thumb but I've met very few, none that I can recall who have gone from unorthodoxy to orthodoxy.

That is because God's truth is hard teaching and we as humans do not think the same as Him. Unorthodoxy is always the easy road and has the feel good attatched.

 

[timlamb]

How can you say "Regardless of its truth"? And how is it an unsupported statement when it's implicitly stated in the bible? If God says He will reconcile all things then what actually is there to add?

I recognised the fact that it matched up with a couple scripture, so it is true in that regard, but it is only a half truth. There is a deeper meaning to life or we all might as well blow our brains out and get to heaven quicker.

All things ARE reconciled, but still people don't want to go the narrow road. The statement lacked the depth of reason, it confined God to your supposition of truth.

Jesus said, people will hate you becasue they hated me first. If the world likes what you say it is most likely not the complete word of God.

If that statement is true and complete then God has played a dirty trick on us by sending us to this earth. He could have given us a softer world if He just wanted to spend some time bringing us around.

No, we are here to chose, to commit to His kingship, or bow to Satan, and we get our will at the end.

 

[Nadiine]

All things ARE reconciled, but still people don't want to go the narrow road. The statement lacked the depth of reason, it confined God to your supposition of truth.

Spot On Tim

We keep seeing this repeatedly - their ideal is read-into the verses
becuz that's how they think it HAS to be; based on their
view of "Love" or "reconcilliation".

Couples OFTEN reconcile in their divorces too.
Does a married couple reconciling their split mean that
they aren't divorcing anymore?
Hardly.

They're reconcilling what they give up/what they lose
and what they get.
In God's court, there's no choice or decision. HE
reconciles you to HIS laws.

Once sin is put away and done away with, ALL IS RECONCILED
to God.
Lost and saved alike.

 

[red77]

You have got to do more than question. Your only reason to question orthodoxy is your emotional viewpoint. All the scripture you quote is a verse here and a verse there, all with a supportable interpretation from both sides. But the verses such as Revelation 22 are complete chapters and undeniably support the eternal punishment.

And who says those that question let it lie at that? My initial reason in questioning the "orthodox" was an emotional one of which I've admitted. But it was not the only reason as I went on to explain to you. If I merely wanted a "feel good" doctrine then I'd have accepted universalism at the time instead of bothering to research it and the origins of orthodox teaching etc etc.
If revelation 22 was 'undeniable' in terms of how you interpret it then there wouldn't even be a debate. You insist on it being literal. Even those who don't ascribe to universalism take issue with you so that is moot.

That is because God's truth is hard teaching and we as humans do not think the same as Him. Unorthodoxy is always the easy road and has the feel good attatched.

I'm sorry Tim but this is ignorant rubbish on your part. It wasn't by any means 'easy' to question what was taught. I had to move out of home in order to attend the church I went to and to arrive at the point where I had to make a decision to either stay and accept the whole doctrine or leave and be true to my conviction was far from an easy time. It is not always the easy road at all. Often it takes courage to actually question rather than just accept. I've spoken with plenty of people who found it very difficult to dismantle the framework of belief they had held for such a long time in their life. You are way out of the ballpark on this one Tim

 

[red77]

Spot On Tim

We keep seeing this repeatedly - their ideal is read-into the verses
becuz that's how they think it HAS to be; based on their
view of "Love" or "reconcilliation".

Couples OFTEN reconcile in their divorces too.
Does a married couple reconciling their split mean that
they aren't divorcing anymore?
Hardly.

They're reconcilling what they give up/what they lose
and what they get.
In God's court, there's no choice or decision. HE
reconciles you to HIS laws.

Once sin is put away and done away with, ALL IS RECONCILED
to God.
Lost and saved alike.

A couple who are divorced aren't "reconciled" to each other if the divorce goes through! That is just a ludicrous argument and a spin you put on these verses in order to make reconcilliation something other than a positive thing! I know people who have divorced and they didn't feel as though they'd reconciled anything! You read something into these verses that simply isn't there. People cast off to an eternal realm of suffering outside of God are not reconciled to God!

 

[red77]

and you still seem to ignore the fact that SIN IS NOT TEMPORAL.

Sin is lasting and doesn't get removed until it's washed away
by Jesus' blood.

The actions they did were temporal, the sin it created is PERMANENT.
The wages of SIN is death (not the wages of stealing a pencil
is death).
THE SIN is permanently there UNLESS ONE COMES TO GOD
WITH A SACRIFICE - just like they came to the temple with
their sacrifices under the Law.
Same thing - Christ replaced the animal.

Once you die, you "come to God" - you either have your
sacrifice or you do not.
If you do not have a blood atoning sacrifice (Christ who you
accepted as Saviour of your soul), YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Your sin remains, and that sin is permanent.
Sin being permanent, gets permanently banned from
the Kingdom of God and separated / quarentined in
a place where it cannot leach out and harm God's
newly regenerated kingdom.

That is God's PROMISE to the saints that He ends sin.
If He doesnt put all evil and all sin into Gehenna, then
He becomes a liar and sin never ends, it forever works
against all that is pure and righteous.
Death will always exist, as will suffering and pain and disease
and curse, etc.

This is where your reasoning falls apart - it's all in the premise
and ideals you base the doctrines on

You need to aquaint yourself with what universalism actually promotes if you're of the understanding that sin never ends and death still exists etc. Whats ironic is that your own doctrine says that sin in some realm goes on into eternity and is never completely vanquished.

 

[red77]

I recognised the fact that it matched up with a couple scripture, so it is true in that regard, but it is only a half truth. There is a deeper meaning to life or we all might as well blow our brains out and get to heaven quicker.

All things ARE reconciled, but still people don't want to go the narrow road. The statement lacked the depth of reason, it confined God to your supposition of truth.

Jesus said, people will hate you becasue they hated me first. If the world likes what you say it is most likely not the complete word of God.

If that statement is true and complete then God has played a dirty trick on us by sending us to this earth. He could have given us a softer world if He just wanted to spend some time bringing us around.

No, we are here to chose, to commit to His kingship, or bow to Satan, and we get our will at the end.

If you believe that because all are reconciled we might as well blow our brains out to get to heaven quicker then I'm sorry you hold such a view. Why does having a deeper meaning to life make any difference to the amount of those who inhabit Heaven?

And how is it a half truth? If an estranged loved one of yours was reconciled to you then would you be apart?

 

[timlamb]

=red77;52526015]And who says those that question let it lie at that? My initial reason in questioning the "orthodox" was an emotional one of which I've admitted. But it was not the only reason as I went on to explain to you. If I merely wanted a "feel good" doctrine then I'd have accepted universalism at the time instead of bothering to research it and the origins of orthodox teaching etc etc.
If revelation 22 was 'undeniable' in terms of how you interpret it then there wouldn't even be a debate. You insist on it being literal. Even those who don't ascribe to universalism take issue with you so that is moot.

That is ignorant gibberish, it says what it says plainly and only unorthodoxy could take it different. There are those who won't read the book of revelation period, but they just deny it, they don't change it.

I'm sorry Tim but this is ignorant rubbish on your part. It wasn't by any means 'easy' to question what was taught. I had to move out of home in order to attend the church I went to and to arrive at the point where I had to make a decision to either stay and accept the whole doctrine or leave and be true to my conviction was far from an easy time. It is not always the easy road at all. Often it takes courage to actually question rather than just accept. I've spoken with plenty of people who found it very difficult to dismantle the framework of belief they had held for such a long time in their life. You are way out of the ballpark on this one Tim

I didn't say your life was easy. I said your belief was the easy road. If it messed up your homelife that is sad. But no one choses an unorthodox belief that is more restrictive to their lifestyles. Orthodoxy makes us answerable to God, all other views take God control and minimise it. "He cannot hurt you because He is a loving God", that is about as small and simple as it gets.

 

[timlamb]

red77;52526111]If you believe that because all are reconciled we might as well blow our brains out to get to heaven quicker then I'm sorry you hold such a view. Why does having a deeper meaning to life make any difference to the amount of those who inhabit Heaven?

What is this, you making a mockery of my arguement does not change it.

And how is it a half truth? If an estranged loved one of yours was reconciled to you then would you be apart?

To reconcile is merely to tear down the barriers. It doesn't unite on it's own. I know many couples who are reconciled to each other and happily married to someone else. They reached a common ground for peace but still chose to be apart.

 

[red77]

That is ignorant gibberish, it says what it says plainly and only unorthodoxy could take it different. There are those who won't read the book of revelation period, but they just deny it, they don't change it.

It's not ignorant gibberish at all Tim. There's plenty of people besides universalists that don't garner what you read from the passage at all. It's funny how a verse from the most symbolic chapter in the bible can be 'read plainly' and yet others have to be "interpreted" when they plainly speak of God planning to reconcile all...

I didn't say your life was easy. I said your belief was the easy road. If it messed up your homelife that is sad. But no one choses an unorthodox belief that is more restrictive to their lifestyles. Orthodoxy makes us answerable to God, all other views take God control and minimise it. "He cannot hurt you because He is a loving God", that is about as small and simple as it gets.

Nobody said you did say my life was easy. You are either being obtuse now or deliberately missing my point. I did not "choose an easy road". It would have been easier in many ways to have conformed to the message taught except from the conviction that it would have been dishonest to do so. If the rest of your post is the same tired argument that people can only be 'answerable to God' if they face eternal suffering then I'm tired of addressing whats already been rebutted all over this thread. You are ignorant to claim that all those who adhere to a theology that differs from your own as taking an "easy road".

 

[b.hopeful]

If we were really looking to take the easy way out in this life with no regard for the afterlife...wouldn't we declare no faith at all. Then there's no accountability to a greater power and no worries about getting it right. THAT is easy.

And I really didn't realize I had a choice. I don't remember choosing to believe as I do...just like I didn't choose to take a breath just now. This is how I'm being lead...this is what is being revealed.....it has been shown. It is more compulsion than choice...to deny it is like trying to hold my breath indefinitely...it won't work.

 

[red77]

What is this, you making a mockery of my arguement does not change it.

I don't even see you making an argument here. I'm merely saying that it strikes me as rather sad that you seemingly think that you might as well blow your brains out in order to get to Heaven faster. The amount of inhabitants should make no difference to valuing your life here and now should it?

To reconcile is merely to tear down the barriers. It doesn't unite on it's own. I know many couples who are reconciled to each other and happily married to someone else. They reached a common ground for peace but still chose to be apart.

They're not reconciled to each other. They may have reconciled their differences but not their relationship. Equating human relationships to what God intends is hardly comparable. How are people reconciled to God if they're cast off forever? What is reconciled?

 

[LightSeaker]

..... all other views take God control and minimise it. "He cannot hurt you because He is a loving God", that is about as small and simple as it gets.

That's wrong. Your reasoning is all upside down. The issue isn't about God hurting us...it's about us not hurting other people because we see the spark of God in them. It's making such teachings as do unto others active and spiritually alive and because God is stage center...thats about as big as it gets.

When God is reduced to beliefs and dogma and stuffed into a bottle...that's about as small as one can get.

.

 

[Nadiine]

That's wrong. Your reasoning is all upside down. The issue isn't about God hurting us...it's about us not hurting other people because we see the spark of God in them. It's making such teachings as do unto others active and spiritually alive and because God is stage center...thats about as big as it gets.

When God is reduced to beliefs and dogma and stuffed into a bottle...that's about as small as one can get.

.

REDUCED to beliefs & dogma?
HE USES SCRIPTURE TO TEACH OF HIMSELF so that we
better know who He is, how He works, what He wants
and His ultimate plan - and to give us hope knowing He's returning.

How can you even say such a thing when that is the very
vehicle He uses most to relay Himself in such a detailed
way!
Most of what you do know of God comes right from that
book whether you admit it or not. NOT what He
"whispers in your ear" - which is a pittance compared to
what He shares in scriptures in great detail.

Sadly, you have it backwards, we know more about God
from "dogma" than from what He shares in our minds.
Take away the Bible and see how much you know about
God except for generalized feelings or emotions or
thoughts about people & things....

compared to what we know about subjects like baptism,
church structure, Jesus' ministry on earth, miracles,
etc.

Plus, the word of God is living in that God works THRU IT
directly to change our spirits & teach us things.
It's life giving words to renew us spiritually.
It's not just some book like MOby dick that you grab off
a shelf.

Sorry, I cannot accept that.

 

[LightSeaker]

REDUCED to beliefs & dogma?
HE USES SCRIPTURE TO TEACH OF HIMSELF so that we
better know who He is, how He works, what He wants
and His ultimate plan - and to give us hope knowing He's returning..

And where Jesus used scripture to show the expanse of His Being, many here use scripture to limit and reduce Him to beliefs and dogma. Jesus Christ is life itself. He is not a "belief" or a "dogma".

.

 

[timlamb]

red77;52526401]I don't even see you making an argument here. I'm merely saying that it strikes me as rather sad that you seemingly think that you might as well blow your brains out in order to get to Heaven faster. The amount of inhabitants should make no difference to valuing your life here and now should it?

I didn't think you were THAT ignorant. I never said such a thing, I would never...I believe life has a purpose and that is to come to a knowledge of God and chose our path. If we are all saved, then why is God putting us through this and why should I go through it? There is not other purpose.

They're not reconciled to each other. They may have reconciled their differences but not their relationship. Equating human relationships to what God intends is hardly comparable. How are people reconciled to God if they're cast off forever? What is reconciled?

I just checked gatway and found many verses with different meanings with the word reconcile. tell me which one you speak of so we may clarify. Debating the meaning of the word out of context means nothing.

 

[LightSeaker]

REDUCED to beliefs & dogma?

HE USES SCRIPTURE TO TEACH OF HIMSELF so that we
better know who He is, how He works, what He wants
and His ultimate plan - and to give us hope knowing He's returning.

How can you even say such a thing when that is the very
vehicle He uses most to relay Himself in such a detailed
way!
Most of what you do know of God comes right from that
book whether you admit it or not. NOT what He
"whispers in your ear" - which is a pittance compared to
what He shares in scriptures in great detail.

Sadly, you have it backwards, we know more about God
from "dogma" than from what He shares in our minds.
Take away the Bible and see how much you know about
God except for generalized feelings or emotions or
thoughts about people & things....

compared to what we know about subjects like baptism,
church structure, Jesus' ministry on earth, miracles,
etc.

Your using dogma to say Jesus Christ is about dogma. Nothing about the life and spirit of Jesus Christ in ones heart and soul AND in ones life! It's like Jesus is something other...someone who is apart and separate from you. You seem to find more in the Bible than you do in Jesus.

Plus, the word of God is living in that God works THRU IT

directly to change our spirits & teach us things.
It's life giving words to renew us spiritually.
It's not just some book like MOby dick that you grab off
a shelf.

But than you turn around and say that it's the Bible that has life and you seem to tout that up as more important than even Jesus. Where ARE your priorities? Something is way wrong with this picture.

.

 

[heavensprings]

REDUCED to beliefs & dogma?
HE USES SCRIPTURE TO TEACH OF HIMSELF so that we
better know who He is, how He works, what He wants
and His ultimate plan - and to give us hope knowing He's returning.

How can you even say such a thing when that is the very
vehicle He uses most to relay Himself in such a detailed
way!
Most of what you do know of God comes right from that
book whether you admit it or not. NOT what He
"whispers in your ear" - which is a pittance compared to
what He shares in scriptures in great detail.

Sadly, you have it backwards, we know more about God
from "dogma" than from what He shares in our minds.
Take away the Bible and see how much you know about
God except for generalized feelings or emotions or
thoughts about people & things....

compared to what we know about subjects like baptism,
church structure, Jesus' ministry on earth, miracles,
etc.

Plus, the word of God is living in that God works THRU IT
directly to change our spirits & teach us things.
It's life giving words to renew us spiritually.
It's not just some book like MOby dick that you grab off
a shelf.

Sorry, I cannot accept that.

You place the scriptures extraordinarily high. Where is the role of Holy Spirit in all this? Didn't Jesus say HE would be our teacher?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

Now it is the Holy Spirit who will teach you FROM WITHIN that scripture. Experience should line up with the Word.. but we must be careful of nullifying the experience we have because we don't know the scriptures well enough. We see through a glass darkly.

The early church didn't have the scriptures as you have them. Even the OT.. the Torah was kept in the Temple. Rarely did an ordinary person like you or I have the scriptures within their own homes to read at their leisure.

Be careful of putting the scriptures in first place.

 

[heavensprings]

You have got to do more than question. Your only reason to question orthodoxy is your emotional viewpoint. All the scripture you quote is a verse here and a verse there, all with a supportable interpretation from both sides. But the verses such as Revelation 22 are complete chapters and undeniably support the eternal punishment.
That is because God's truth is hard teaching and we as humans do not think the same as Him. Unorthodoxy is always the easy road and has the feel good attatched.

Actually it's not just a verse here and a verse there. It's all the way from Genesis to Revelation. It's everywhere in the stories and parables, and in what the prophets say.

Take the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego as an example.. it's a type of the Lake of Fire. The story of Joseph is a story of the elect and of their being priests and kings who will RULE AND REIGN with Christ... rule and reign whom? And ruling and reigning to do what?... to help bring the rest into the Kingdom.
The parable of the lost coin, lost sheep, lost prodigal son... all show that every single LOST person will be sought after and FOUND. Mankind is lost, every single one.
It's in Paul's writings, everywhere. We don't count on a few verses here and there... it's in the great themes of the scriptures... and in the Law of Moses. Now that's a good place to study this... The Law of Redemption, the law of Tabernacles, the Law of Ownership, Jubilee.. the struggle for the Birthright, it's in the Judgments of the Divine Law. It's everywhere!

This subject is so VAST that to show you what it's all about would take more than a few posts in a forum.

PS... to be unorthodox is the harder road. I was orthodox for roughly thirty years... that's easy.

 

[red77]

I didn't think you were THAT ignorant. I never said such a thing, I would never...I believe life has a purpose and that is to come to a knowledge of God and chose our path. If we are all saved, then why is God putting us through this and why should I go through it? There is not other purpose.

How am I being so ignorant here? You are the one who equates universal reconciliation to there being no actual point to life on this earth with your argument here, can you not see that? You're practically saying that if everyone is reconciled to God then 'why should you go through tribulation'. Are you any better than those who don't 'choose' your own path? Are all those who don't find the same as you so evil and wicked as to warrant being burned for all eternity? Is that the only point you see in life on this present plane?

I just checked gatway and found many verses with different meanings with the word reconcile. tell me which one you speak of so we may clarify. Debating the meaning of the word out of context means nothing.

Tell me how there is any definition of reconcile that means things can be reconciled "away" from God which your doctrine insists upon for eternal LOF to be true...
It's pretty obvious that reconcillation of ALL to God would negate that