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Originally Posted by Hentenza
Christ atonement is conditional on belief. Those that choose not receive the atonement will not be saved. A 6 year old can not either deny nor choose God. The answer is no. God is just, you know
Before you believed, did he not die for you, sir?
Can you please post the scripture? Thanks.
Did you accept Him when you were 6?
I used a verse by Jesus earlier,
that if they were blind, they would have no sin.
This can directly go to age of accountability in that tiny
children just do not know what sin is and do not have a
rationalized thought as to full knowledge of sin or God
for that matter as I view kids.
I dont appeal to any emotionalism on that topic; esp. when
I said that even IF God did judge them as lost, I said I
would honor that since He is Sovereign and judges justly.
So I'm not sure where you get emotionalism in my reply.
And again, annihilationism is to be set FREE from punishment
& penalty, not to pay for sin.
There is plenty of good information in Bible that torment is
involved in punishment for lack of atonement.
In fact, I'll tell you this,
if I were that Rich man in Hades, I couldn't WAIT for God
to snuff me out, it would a warm welcome than to know
what awaits me is endless payment in being separated
from Him and outside His kingdom.
Here is just one of many...
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The soul is eternal.
Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Why didn't you accept Christ at 6 or at 4 or at 2?No, but are you saying that the age of accountability is age 7-8?
What is the age of accountability? Can you be an adult and not have reached it? and where is this scripturally?
The age of accountability is when they can choose or deny Christ. The bible does not give us an exact age.
The age of accountability is when they can choose or deny Christ. The bible does not give us an exact age.
Prove it through scriptures then because this is something else that is not present.
That which was created can be destroyed.
Actually only God creates, man makes. Only God can choose to destroy His creation but doesn't because God can not destroy that what He created in His image.
Many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments talk of the immortal soul: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The second death is an everlasting punishment. You know, "the worm will not die" It means they will never be resurrected. It also is the opposite of everlasting life, making it consistent with the meaning of "the right and the left" which are opposites.
Everlasting punishment is everlasting. If you apply everlasting the same way then, can the believer hope to spend everlasting life with God?
He can destroy what he creates, and if he can't destroy it, how can he torture it for all eternity?Actually only God creates, man makes. Only God can choose to destroy His creation but doesn't because God can not destroy that what He created in His image.
Many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments talk of the immortal soul: Psalm 22:26
Everlasting punishment is everlasting. If you apply everlasting the same way then, can the believer hope to spend everlasting life with God?
So, theorically, this can only happen if you actually know that Christ exists then. Thoses that never heard of him do not go to hell?
The end of the torment is a free gift here and now. God is a loving God and because He is a loving God He does not force His love on those that choose not to love Him. Forced love is no love at all. God is also just (justice) and an infinite, atemporal God demands an infinite, atemporal punishment. God so love the world that he sent His only begotten son to die for us so that those that believe in Him could be saved. The operative word is believe. God is perfect. He lacks nothing. What can you as a fallible, immortal, imperfect human can possibly offer God? Nothing but your love.
Is it loving to force people into existence with eternal torment as the default setting unless those fallible imperfect creatures manage to stumble on the right path? Where is the love in this exactly?
Christ is God. No one is without excuse.
Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
True. And as God, Christ also is with out bounds nor is limited by beliefs or even by theology.Christ is God. No one is without excuse.
Stumble? You don't give God enough credit.
How is love forcing those that don't want to love Him to love Him?
Yes, and I'm positive that he had false doctrines such as
Universalism in mind which lead people to a false sense of
spiritual complacency that they'll all end up in heaven at the
end anyways and would have no reason to know the true and
Living God becuz they don't care about His sacrifice.
I'm sure He envisioned the Rich man scenario in his mind over
and over again as people were in torment due to their separation
from God becuz they refused to believe in faith and recieve so
great a sacrifice from Jesus Christ who COULD HAVE pardoned
them thru their faith.
Once God is proven in the afterlife with no more doubts about it,
"FAITH" is off the table. And salvation is thru FAITH, not standing
at a judgment throne trying to get out of what they know is
coming.
TODAY is the day of salvation - while they are alive.
Hentenza is also correct in using the scripture that it's appointed
for us once to die, then judgment.
And that is supported perfectly by the Revelation account -
where they are not seen getting out again, the only one getting
out of Gehenna over time is Satan, and that's to allow him an
opportunity to put another generation to the test once they've
tasted of God's goodness.
Why is there no mention of the unrepentant lost getting out there???
(where it SHOULD be taught clearly for such a hugely important
doctrine!!) :o :o :o (if it were true)...
Pagan myths?
How about the MYTH that people repent & get saved after they
reach Gehenna!
Maybe you can find this 'true doctrine' in Revelation where it
explains the judgment and restoration collectively.
Can you find me that ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE where people
are repenting AFTER judgment and God comes back to review
their pleadings & conversions?
Then lets them out and releases them with the Saints?
I'd love to see your doctrine spelled out instead of READ IN
everywhere you want to redefine word meanings and rip
scriptures out of their contexts.
And as another poster asked, why in the world is Satan re-released
to test later generations at all if they all get into heaven anyways?
How pointless could God get? (and cruel to boot).
Lastly again, let me rehearse this ideal for you - since so many
Uvi's like to attack us "fire & brimstone/fear" folks:
Universalism teaches an identical fear factor/ and torment factor
since they claim that it's AFTER people pay for their sins that they
repent & get back out.
That is putting them thru torment and thru their fear and pain,
THEY REPENT? Sorry, but that's not any different than those
you attack.
Further, if they pay for their sins they didn't repent of, then they're
being paid for twice; once by Jesus and then on their own account.
Since when are sins paid twice?
And how does MAN pay for sin at all?
The serious problems with this false doctrine abound.
Stumble? You don't give God enough credit.
How is love forcing those that don't want to love Him to love Him?
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