Universalism

[Tissue]

And once a child is eighteen if that child still rebells and effects other family members? if that child runs away and joins a cult or gets into prostitution and drugs? Free will is part of our culture and choices have consequences.

Ask any parent whether or not they would force that child to leave the cult, or prostitution, or drugs if they had the power. Any caring parent would say 'Yes, I would force them.' God surely has the power.

I don't have to rationize God, I believe His word. I never said God can be blocked, but only that He will alow us our choice and many will make the wrong one. Read Romans 1:18-32: when man rebells, at some point, God lets them go.

Oh, certainly; rebellion leads to punishment. But punishment is not the end.

 

[wayseer]

Methinks there is a lot of misunderstanding and ignorance on what the Universalist really believes.

I agree - I don't think universalists know what they believe.

I know that's a cheap shot, sorry, but this process of dumbing down the work of Jesus so that everyone is happy just don't wash with me. I don't like the idea of eternal damnation for those I love either but that does not mean I wave my finger at God and tell him to get it right. As I said, you don't need to 'believe' in hell to get an idea of what it must be like just by looking around. So, it might be great, if we all agree that hell is a hell of a place, that we clean up our own hellheap here on planet earth.

 

[Armistead]

OK. But that is what universalism advocates; it removes the concept of hell and therefore judgement and therefore atonement. It is new age thinking wrapped up in religious philosophy laced with appropriate Christian scriptures just to make it sound legit.

Universalism doesn't remove the concept of judgment. We believe that that judgement will result in reconciliation. Even we as parents don't punish our children with the end result being endless torture, but to reconcile them to the truth. I would think if loving parents could do that, God himself could also.

It's not about making a new age thinking legit. The fact is this is the original thinking of the early church. Eternal torment is more of a new age doctrine. Even honest bible scholars will admit that hell is mistranslated in the KJV. The early church believed in universal salvation.
I'm amazed at how few study how eternal hell became a concept of the church. The pattern is so clear it becomes obvious how this pagan belief became part of christian doctrine.

If eternal hell is true, it's sad to know that Christ was unable to do the will of the father and redeem all mankind. It's hard to believe that evil won out over God and that Satan was able to take the majority of God's creation into eternal torment.

God is everywhere at all times. If eternal hell is true, God's power will be running hell like a prision warden forever. Some say hell is just a place to keep evil seperate from God. God cannot be seperate from anything, he is in all at all times. The only way for God to seperate himself from all evil is to totally do away with it and reconcile all to himself.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/The%20Early%20Christian%20View%20of%20the%20Savior.htm

 

[timlamb]

Armistead;51487469]Universalism doesn't remove the concept of judgment. We believe that that judgement will result in reconciliation. Even we as parents don't punish our children with the end result being endless torture, but to reconcile them to the truth. I would think if loving parents could do that, God himself could also.

Lets say you had ten kids, eight of them rebel and rip up the house and bring in drug dealers and steal all you good things and sell them to do all mannor of evil. Do you let then have their way or kick them out and hope to save the two who want to be good?

It's not about making a new age thinking legit. The fact is this is the original thinking of the early church. Eternal torment is more of a new age doctrine. Even honest bible scholars will admit that hell is mistranslated in the KJV. The early church believed in universal salvation.

I call "B.S."

I'm amazed at how few study how eternal hell became a concept of the church. The pattern is so clear it becomes obvious how this pagan belief became part of christian doctrine.

but you offer no evidence. That is a serious charge, I do not take your word for it.
Edit: I missed the link at the bottom of the page. It is so funny the way it talks about the old translations being bias, when that writing it's self is so bias it isn't worth the paper to print it. It quotes Martin Luther before He sorted out all his problems and says that should discredit him, it's shameful. Pure propaganda!

If eternal hell is true, it's sad to know that Christ was unable to do the will of the father and redeem all mankind. It's hard to believe that evil won out over God and that Satan was able to take the majority of God's creation into eternal torment.

I am currently being ripped apart on my local liberal newspaper site for mentioning God and quoting scripture. You should hear the things they call God and the way they misuse Hi word. You really think He will force them to love Him? These people don't want God telling them what to do, and if you believe your bible that won't change. It is you who put conditions on God. If God has put a limit on just how long He will tolorate this rebellion, I don't blame Him one bit.

God is everywhere at all times. If eternal hell is true, God's power will be running hell like a prision warden forever. Some say hell is just a place to keep evil seperate from God. God cannot be seperate from anything, he is in all at all times. The only way for God to seperate himself from all evil is to totally do away with it and reconcile all to himself.

You make it sound like God is some cosmic mist that has seeped into everything. You are not allowed to get to the Father except through the son. You talk like God is tied to matter and space or something. God is spirit and so can inhabit all things and no one can hide from Him, but I've never heard that God cannot get away from what He doesn't like. The whole message of sin is that seperation it creates between God and man.
The Early Christian View of the Savior[/quote]

 

[wayseer]

Universalism doesn't remove the concept of judgment. We believe that that judgement will result in reconciliation. Even we as parents don't punish our children with the end result being endless torture, but to reconcile them to the truth. I would think if loving parents could do that, God himself could also.

Scripture seems against you here.

However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations.

... is apparently justified by ....

... just as the result of one trespass [by Adam] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [by Christ] was justification that brings life for all men. ... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous(Romans 5:18-19)

... which itself is a perversion of truth that while salvation is offered to all - it is only accepted by a few.

Romans 2: 5-8 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourselves in the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed! He will reward each one according to his works: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness.

Matt 7: 13-14 (Jesus speaking) Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

... and ...

(Jesus speaking) You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

... and this one I like - hits the nail on the head ...

And do you know what I am going to say? 'You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.' (Matt 7:23 MSG) Ah, do not fall into the hands of an angry God.

Eternal torment is more of a new age doctrine.

Sounds very much a 1st Century reality.

The only way for God to seperate himself from all evil is to totally do away with it and reconcile all to himself.

Hell of a gamble to take though.

 

[wayseer]

Lets say you had ten kids, eight of them rebel and rip up the house and bring in drug dealers and steal all you good things and sell them to do all mannor of evil. Do you let then have their way or kick them out and hope to save the two who want to be good?

I call "B.S."

but you offer no evidence. That is a serious charge, I do not take your word for it.
Edit: I missed the link at the bottom of the page. It is so funny the way it talks about the old translations being bias, when that writing it's self is so bias it isn't worth the paper to print it. It quotes Martin Luther before He sorted out all his problems and says that should discredit him, it's shameful. Pure propaganda!


I am currently being ripped apart on my local liberal newspaper site for mentioning God and quoting scripture. You should hear the things they call God and the way they misuse Hi word. You really think He will force them to love Him? These people don't want God telling them what to do, and if you believe your bible that won't change. It is you who put conditions on God. If God has put a limit on just how long He will tolorate this rebellion, I don't blame Him one bit.

You make it sound like God is some cosmic mist that has seeped into everything. You are not allowed to get to the Father except through the son. You talk like God is tied to matter and space or something. God is spirit and so can inhabit all things and no one can hide from Him, but I've never heard that God cannot get away from what He doesn't like. The whole message of sin is that seperation it creates between God and man.
The Early Christian View of the Savior

[/QUOTE]

Great post Tim - I'm impressed.

'Yeah, religion is OK as long as they feed the poor and house the destitute but tell me I'm a sinner buster.'

 

[chingchang]

Scripture seems against you here.

However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations.

... is apparently justified by ....

... just as the result of one trespass [by Adam] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [by Christ] was justification that brings life for all men. ... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous(Romans 5:18-19)

... which itself is a perversion of truth that while salvation is offered to all - it is only accepted by a few.

Romans 2: 5-8 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourselves in the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed! He will reward each one according to his works: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness.

Matt 7: 13-14 (Jesus speaking) Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

... and ...

(Jesus speaking) You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

... and this one I like - hits the nail on the head ...

And do you know what I am going to say? 'You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.' (Matt 7:23 MSG) Ah, do not fall into the hands of an angry God.



Sounds very much a 1st Century reality.



Hell of a gamble to take though.

Hell is a place where souls will be destroyed (nothing left)...IMHO. If souls were tormented...without end in hell...then how does one explain this?:

Matthew 10:28 (NIV):
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

What is left after the body and soul have been destroyed?

Furthermore, what happened to the people that lived in Sodom and Gomorah?...

Luke 17:29(NIV):
But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jude 1:7 (NIV):
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

There are two eternal destinies...one leads to life...the other death/destruction:

Matthew 7:13 (NIV)
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Can we be sure that they will be destroyed though?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NIV)
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

"Everlasting DESTRUCTION"? No hope of being regenerated/redeemed.

I do believe that hell exists...that much is scriptural and people have had visions of hell. People will go there...and be destroyed.

Couple everything above with what we know of God's character from OT examples. What happened to everything/everyone outside the Arch during the flood? Nothing left...utter destruction. What happened to Sodom/Gomorah? Utter destruction...nothing left. What happened to some of the enemies of Israel when God commanded his army to go out and kill them...men/women/children/elderly/babies/ox/sheep and burn down all their structures? Utter destruction...nothing left. The only example of torture that I'm aware of in the OT is with Job...God allowed it and then more than redeemed him. We do not worship a God who tortures!!!!!!!

Hugs,
CC

 

[rcorlew]

Perhaps the flaw here is thinking about faith in Jesus too much in terms of intellectual assent to abstract ideas and too little in terms of appropriate relationship.

I don't buy the way timlamb puts the "God cannot tolerate sin" idea. It makes God a weakling, and flys in the face of God coming into the sinful world as Jesus of Nazareth. If God has a problem with sin, it isn't for his own sake, but for the sake of his creation that it is damaging.


Have you read The Great Divorce?

God not only cannot stand sin, but He will ultimately destroy anything in sin.

Exodus 33:18 Moses said, "Please show me your glory."
Exodus 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."
Exodus 33:21 And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock,
Exodus 33:22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
Exodus 33:23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

 

[Tissue]

Your verse speaks from a time before we had a divine Mediator. We have Jesus now.

 

[rcorlew]

Ask any parent whether or not they would force that child to leave the cult, or prostitution, or drugs if they had the power. Any caring parent would say 'Yes, I would force them.' God surely has the power.

God does have the power, better yet God gives us the power to do His will. Look at the regenerated Peter in the first two chapters of Acts, and compare that to the Peter of Matthew 26:69-75, you will see that God gave power and authority to Peter through accepting His will and being baptized by the Holy Spirit.

God will make the choices for you, but you have to accept the choices He makes. It is the same with salvation, few find the narrow way to the narrow gate. Salvation is universally offered but not universally accepted. To accept the doctrine of Universalism you would have to throw out some very important teaching of Jesus.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Oh, certainly; rebellion leads to punishment. But punishment is not the end.

If punishment were not the end, why would God give His spirit so that we may preach the Gospel with His authority to lead others into acceptance of His will.

Why would we need to repent if punishment were not the end, could we not just go about doing anything we like and in the end be reconciled to God through Jesus on the Bhema seat?

 

[rcorlew]

Your verse speaks from a time before we had a divine Mediator. We have Jesus now.

They had them also.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

 

[Tissue]

God will make the choices for you, but you have to accept the choices He makes. It is the same with salvation, few find the narrow way to the narrow gate. Salvation is universally offered but not universally accepted.

Few find the narrow way to escaping hell, but none remain in hell for eternity.

If punishment were not the end, why would God give His spirit so that we may preach the Gospel with His authority to lead others into acceptance of His will.

So that people can fulfill what they were made for on this world, have a happier life, escape from hell, and teach truth. It's not as though hell must be eternal for the message of Christianity to have meaning.

Why would we need to repent if punishment were not the end, could we not just go about doing anything we like and in the end be reconciled to God through Jesus on the Bhema seat?

No; you can't just go off and sin. You do that, you burn in hell for a time (who knows how long?). There is punishment for sin. But the ultimate end, when everything is said-n'-done, is heaven.

 

[Tissue]

They had them also.

No they didn't. Hence, the curtain in the Holy of Holies (which was torn in two with the death of Jesus).

 

[timlamb]

Scripture tells us we have eye witness accounts, but we also have a more certainword of prophecy. Check this out:
Zephaniah 3:11-13 (New International Version)



11 On that day you will not be put to shame
for all the wrongs you have done to me,
because I will remove from this city
those who rejoice in their pride.
Never again will you be haughty
on my holy hill.
12 But I will leave within you
the meek and humble,
who trust in the name of the LORD. 13 The remnant of Israel will do no wrong;
they will speak no lies,
nor will deceit be found in their mouths.
They will eat and lie down
and no one will make them afraid."

This is prophecied for the future of Jerusalem. I think it sheds some light on where God is coming from, He wants to purify His people. Univeralism would have God bringing back those He removed, and it just isn't there. Universalism tries to add to scripture, and that is not acceptable to God.

 

[Tissue]

Your verse says nothing about the eternity of hell. It also fits perfectly with Universal Reconciliation, which affirms that God seeks to purify all people.

Universalism is not attempting to add to Scripture. It is reading it in a different light, without the notion of eternal torture firmly planted in our minds. Again, lest we forget, the church in the first five centuries after Christ was largely Universalist.

 

[timlamb]

Tissue;51494163]Your verse says nothing about the eternity of hell. It also fits perfectly with Universal Reconciliation, which affirms that God seeks to purify all people.

Well, you read it and still only got it half right. It doesn't say where they go just that He will remove them. But it does not say anything about "purify all people" it refers to those left as the remnant:

13 The remnant of Israel will do no wrong;
they will speak no lies,
nor will deceit be found in their mouths.

Universalism is not attempting to add to Scripture.

You just did, ALL vs. REMNANT

It is reading it in a different light, without the notion of eternal torture firmly planted in our minds.

You read into it all right.

Again, lest we forget, the church in the first five centuries after Christ was largely Universalist.

Bogus, a fabrication from some some no-name theologians. They had the same scriptures we have and in the first two centuries they had witnesses and those who heard it straight from witnesses. There is only resurrection for those who died in Christ Jesus. You have this fanticy of them chaning their minds about Jesus and wanting to come back, there is nothing on which to base that belief.

 

[Tissue]

You just did, ALL vs. REMNANT

You sure that's the right way to interpret it? That Israel is actually referring to those who are saved by Jesus, amidst the end times?

That is not evident from the context. That is not evident from the verse itself. I've no doubt it seems as though it says that to you, but then, you are approaching Scripture with a few recognizable assumptions (as I am). If I am reading into it, then so are you.

That verse you quote strikes me as quite obscure, and interpretable in a number of different ways. That you seem so solidly certain that it means one particular thing in a very particular circumstance and not another makes it all the more suspicious.

Bogus, a fabrication from some some no-name theologians. They had the same scriptures we have and in the first two centuries they had witnesses and those who heard it straight from witnesses. There is only resurrection for those who died in Christ Jesus. You have this fanticy of them chaning their minds about Jesus and wanting to come back, there is nothing on which to base that belief.

Read your Clement. Read your Origen. Read your Gregory of Nyssa. Look into the teachings of the schools of Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa (as opposed to Ephesus and Rome).

Universal Salvation was all throughout the early church. Not everyone believed it, of course. But many (or even, most) did. Augustine alludes to this in City of God when he puts together his argument against Universal Reconciliation (that is, that his argument would be controversial).

 

[Armistead]

You sure that's the right way to interpret it? That Israel is actually referring to those who are saved by Jesus, amidst the end times?

That is not evident from the context. That is not evident from the verse itself. I've no doubt it seems as though it says that to you, but then, you are approaching Scripture with a few recognizable assumptions (as I am). If I am reading into it, then so are you.

That verse you quote strikes me as quite obscure, and interpretable in a number of different ways. That you seem so solidly certain that it means one particular thing in a very particular circumstance and not another makes it all the more suspicious.

Read your Clement. Read your Origen. Read your Gregory of Nyssa. Look into the teachings of the schools of Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa (as opposed to Ephesus and Rome).

Universal Salvation was all throughout the early church. Not everyone believed it, of course. But many (or even, most) did. Augustine alludes to this in City of God when he puts together his argument against Universal Reconciliation (that is, that his argument would be controversial).

The debate often centers around the word aion, which means for an age.
Obvious words like eternal and forever were not words used in the greek.
Today we want to take those words and apply the english meaning to them.
There was a common greek word that denoted endless time....adios....if hell were for an endless time, strange they didn't use the common greek word to define it.
Even today we all use the slang of forever as it was used back then...like telling my son to clean his room and he complains "it will take forever."

When I believed and taught endless torture, no one would never have convinced me otherwise. I wasn't going to study the bible as it was written, but only through the eyes of my denomination. It takes long hard study to clearly understand something and most people will never take the time to study, but continue to believe what they were taught.

You have to take the time to study the early church and that they were overwhelmingly UR. Then study all the pagan influences that took part of church doctrine when governments became controlled by religion...but most importantly the greek. Even many bibles are now correctly translating hell and the words eternal....and about time.

How hell can be a part of freewill is beyond me. If I held a gun to someones head and told them to love me,,,they would say it. If you tell someone they will be tortured by God forever....they will accept Christ.
That's why most Christians are miserable. They never really accepted Christ, they just wanted their get out of hell free card. If you threaten with torture, not much freewil involved. People will do anything out of fear.

 

[timlamb]

=Armistead;51499202]The debate often centers around the word aion, which means for an age.
Obvious words like eternal and forever were not words used in the greek.
Today we want to take those words and apply the english meaning to them.
There was a common greek word that denoted endless time....adios....if hell were for an endless time, strange they didn't use the common greek word to define it.
Even today we all use the slang of forever as it was used back then...like telling my son to clean his room and he complains "it will take forever."

I've heard this arguement before. What uni's don't get or don't admit, is that the same word is used for heaven or eternal life. So if the interpretation applies to the torture, it must apply to endless time with Christ, so either both are eternal or neither are. The other problem is that and "age' denotes a period of time. In the eternal, time is no more. Or it could be said, the last age IS eternal.

When I believed and taught endless torture, no one would never have convinced me otherwise. I wasn't going to study the bible as it was written, but only through the eyes of my denomination. It takes long hard study to clearly understand something and most people will never take the time to study, but continue to believe what they were taught.

You have to take the time to study the early church and that they were overwhelmingly UR. Then study all the pagan influences that took part of church doctrine when governments became controlled by religion...but most importantly the greek. Even many bibles are now correctly translating hell and the words eternal....and about time.

I did some research, and it seems most of the teaching for uni, including origen and his teacher Clement, was deeply mixed with Greek philosiphy. The idea is not nor has it ever been based on sound biblical interpretation. nor was it overwhelmingly accepted. A few specific areas of concentrated teaching maybe but not wide spread. Mis-leading teaching was easy back then because scripture text was expencive and not widely available. Teacher had to be counted on for truth. Gnosticism was large in the same areas so the open and freindly teaching of uni was probably refreshing and redily accepted. I found it strange also that those who taught uni (scripture + philosiphy) were not martyred in the second century. I read where they felt they were divinely protected but it sounds to me more like they were saying what the opposition wanted to hear, no threat, why kill them?

How hell can be a part of freewill is beyond me. If I held a gun to someones head and told them to love me,,,they would say it.

But they would not mean it from their heart, is that what God wants?

If you tell someone they will be tortured by God forever....they will accept Christ.

But not from their heart, do you think that is what God wants?

That's why most Christians are miserable. They never really accepted Christ, they just wanted their get out of hell free card. If you threaten with torture, not much freewil involved. People will do anything out of fear.

This is such a lie. I have met a few who will willingly say they follow Christ to stay out of hell, while that is a big plus most just really want to serve a loving God who has done so much and suffered for them. I rebelled until I found someone who did not condemn me, who showed me the Love of Christ Jesus. I was not afraid of death, I stayed drunk to avoid life, I wanted to die. I quit drinking to serve the God who loves me. Jesus never once in scripture even hints at the promise of eternal (age long) life to anyone who had not repented and and showed faith. Some people who struggle with punishment with unsaved loved ones take comfor in the fact that Jesus hints of a lessor punishment for some than for others, but all who reject Jesus will be turned away at judgement, it is scripture, and the second death is as permenent as the promise of life.

 

[Armistead]

I've heard this arguement before. What uni's don't get or don't admit, is that the same word is used for heaven or eternal life. So if the interpretation applies to the torture, it must apply to endless time with Christ, so either both are eternal or neither are. The other problem is that and "age' denotes a period of time. In the eternal, time is no more. Or it could be said, the last age IS eternal.


I did some research, and it seems most of the teaching for uni, including origen and his teacher Clement, was deeply mixed with Greek philosiphy. The idea is not nor has it ever been based on sound biblical interpretation. nor was it overwhelmingly accepted. A few specific areas of concentrated teaching maybe but not wide spread. Mis-leading teaching was easy back then because scripture text was expencive and not widely available. Teacher had to be counted on for truth. Gnosticism was large in the same areas so the open and freindly teaching of uni was probably refreshing and redily accepted. I found it strange also that those who taught uni (scripture + philosiphy) were not martyred in the second century. I read where they felt they were divinely protected but it sounds to me more like they were saying what the opposition wanted to hear, no threat, why kill them?

But they would not mean it from their heart, is that what God wants?
But not from their heart, do you think that is what God wants?
This is such a lie. I have met a few who will willingly say they follow Christ to stay out of hell, while that is a big plus most just really want to serve a loving God who has done so much and suffered for them. I rebelled until I found someone who did not condemn me, who showed me the Love of Christ Jesus. I was not afraid of death, I stayed drunk to avoid life, I wanted to die. I quit drinking to serve the God who loves me. Jesus never once in scripture even hints at the promise of eternal (age long) life to anyone who had not repented and and showed faith. Some people who struggle with punishment with unsaved loved ones take comfor in the fact that Jesus hints of a lessor punishment for some than for others, but all who reject Jesus will be turned away at judgement, it is scripture, and the second death is as permenent as the promise of life.

You have obvious done little study on UR or the history of hell and the church. These are the common simple arguments that you bring forth and not even the deeper arguments that can be debated in reference to ET.
We got into a complex deep debate over all these issues about 6 months ago with sincere people from both sides. I'll try and find that thread. All your questions are easily answered with scripture, but you have to take the time.

Did you ever question why God would knowingly create this world, knowing beforehand that in the end he would torture the majority of his creation? Why would any same being create knowing in the end his plan would be ruined by Satan and he lost to evil. In your world...Satan and evil wins.
Is that complete love. Sadly man had lowered God to his level, made him worse than Hitler or Stalin. Really we would be better off to just kill all children before they grew up, since most will reject Christ...at least it would save them from being tortured by their creator.

In your world the majority of people went to the alter not out of wanting a relationship with Christ, just scared of being tortured forever. Sadly fear works....the pagans knew that.

In your world Satan wins and evil endures forever. Thankfully, God will destroy all evil and reconcile all things to himself through Christ.