Universalism

Jase · Jun 23, 2009

timlamb said:
I find it very interesting that God saw fit to say this twice:

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way which seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death.

Just cuz it seems right doesn't mean a thing.

Same goes for your views btw.

rcorlew · Jun 23, 2009

bluediamond said:
The problem with this is that it is giving 'another' way to be saved. The scriptures are clear that it is ONLY in and through Christ that one can be saved.

If all mankind could be saved just listening and obeying the internal law written on the heart then there would be no need for Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

I did not say that those who are judged against the law written on their hearts get in, just that God has provided a path.

mnphysicist · Jun 23, 2009

timlamb said:
The bible speaks many times of the vengeance and wrath, and not once does it speak of a redemption after the fact.

Actually there are quite a number of verses that could support post mortem evangelism. I dont believe such, but the scriptures most certainly exist.

Important issue, that, seems God would have told us in certain terms not by the lack of terms.

Why? Why not leave it a mystery? Discussions as concerns the destiny of the unevangelized (8 or 9 major theories) while academically fascinating, I dont really see as having a major impact on ones life, nor are they resolvable. There is just too much scriptural support for most of them, that to pick one, is nearly as likely to be in error as much as another. The exception being salvation to all, apart from Christ... 2000 yrs of tradition, and a multitude of Christological theories, puts that one out of bounds.

heavensprings · Jun 23, 2009

rcorlew said:
I did not say that those who are judged against the law written on their hearts get in, just that God has provided a path.

Yes, and that path is Christ... is it not?

Joh 10:1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

Joh 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

I point this out to show that when the church can't find an answer to the problem of the rest of humanity not hearing the gospel and can't see the justice in God sending them to eternal damnation, the church will quite often come up with 'God must have another way'. He doesn't. There is only one way. I'm not specifically pointing the finger at you, because it's something we've all fallen back on.

So, what of the rest of humanity who haven't heard and are not given the so called 'freedom of choice' to believe?

timlamb · Jun 23, 2009

mnphysicist;52169446]Actually there are quite a number of verses that could support post mortem evangelism. I dont believe such, but the scriptures most certainly exist.

What scriptures? There are many which, taken out of context, could support universal salvation, but none that I am aware of that support post wrath redemption.

Why? Why not leave it a mystery? Discussions as concerns the destiny of the unevangelized (8 or 9 major theories) while academically fascinating, I dont really see as having a major impact on ones life, nor are they resolvable. There is just too much scriptural support for most of them, that to pick one, is nearly as likely to be in error as much as another. The exception being salvation to all, apart from Christ... 2000 yrs of tradition, and a multitude of Christological theories, puts that one out of bounds.

While I understand your position I don't agree at all. The entire truth is in scripture. As you say, there is scripture support for many theories, we get our theories from scripture. Universal salvation uses some scriptures but leaves out wrath to make it's case. Once you get to the idea of punishment there is no scripture that supports a following redemption.
It goes,
A-Christ died for all, and
B-there is wrath and punishment, so therefore,
C-there must be post wrath salvation.
There is scripture support for A&B, but not C.

preistsplace · Jun 24, 2009

2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
From Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin available free http://hopebeyondhell.net
15. Punished with Everlasting Destruction.
(2Th_1:9)

Marvin Vincent, in Word Studies in the New Testament regarding olethron aionion in 2Th_1:9 explained:

If olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, because extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration.In this passage, the word destruction is qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting4 (See "Eternity" on my website for full quote.)

If we cross reference olethros with 1Co_5:5, and its derivative olothrūo in Heb_11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the "first-born" of Egypt (Heb_11:28). Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? What do you think? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we all know God will restore it in the resurrection (1Co_5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (Deu_32:39; 1Sa_2:6; Mat_3:9)? (See also Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbot page 104. See bibliography).

Nadiine · Jun 24, 2009

timlamb said:
I don't know how anyone could mistake this for allogory

Who gets punished, who is the object of His vengeance? "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" And as it says in Romans 1, men are without excuse because He has made Himself known to us.

things quickly become allegory when they aren't pleasant, benevolent, or
suit a personal preference, haven't you figured that out yet ?

Nadiine · Jun 24, 2009

Originally Posted by MarkSB

Well, I would think when the bible says eternity it means eternity. It's really the only source which can speak of eternity in my mind. I fail to see why it would mean anything else.

It means something else only when it doesn't provide somebody
with blessed assurance of salvation eternally....
things stop meaning what they mean when doctrines are being
created to suit man's desires.

preistsplace · Jun 24, 2009

Nadiine said:
It means something else only when it doesn't provide somebody
with blessed assurance of salvation eternally....
things stop meaning what they mean when doctrines are being
created to suit man's desires.

With all fairness the belief in your doctrine requires us to believe that ALL DOES NOT MEAN ALL...
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
emphasis mine
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
You argue that all cannot possibly men all in these passages

preistsplace · Jun 24, 2009

As far as eternity......
From Hope Beyond Hell available free at http://hopoebeyondhell.net
Old Testament (Greek Septuagint)

In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:

The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament and was the Bible of the early church. The word aion occurs in it about four hundred times in every variety of combination. The adjective aionios derived from it, is used over one hundred times.Aion denoted an age, great or small, so the adjective aionios expressed the idea pertaining to or belonging to the aion, whether great or small. But in every case this adjective derives its character and duration from the aion to which it refers. 2

In the Septuagint the Greek word, aion, is used to translate the Hebrew word olam. Thus, if we want to get a sense of the New Testament meaning of aion, we need to understand the meaning of olam in the Old Testament. Numerous passages referring to olam show clearly it cannot mean "never-ending." Note these few:

Jonah was in the fish forever [olam] until he left three days later (Jon_1:17; Jon_2:6).
Sodom's fiery judgment is eternal [olam] until God returns them to their former state (Eze_16:53-55; Jud_1:7).
A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation forever [olam] until the 10th generation (Deu_23:3).
Hills are everlasting [olam] until made lowearth is burned up (Gen_49:26; Deu_33:15; Isa_40:4; 2Pe_3:10).
Mountains are everlasting [olam] until they are scattered (Hab_3:6).
A slave serves his master forever [olam] until death ends his servitude (Exo_21:6).
The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam] until it vanishes away (Lev_24:8; Heb_8:7-13).
The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam] until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Exo_40:15; Num_25:13; Heb_7:14-22).
These "stones" are to be a memorial forever until (Jos_4:7)? Where are they now?
The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam] until his death, of course (2Ki_5:27).
God dwells in Solomon's temple forever [olam] until it is destroyed (2Ch_7:16; 1Ki_8:13; 1Ki_9:3).
Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam] until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch_2:4; Heb_7:11-28; Heb_8:1-13; Heb_9:1-28; Heb_10:1-18).
Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant until the new covenant (Gen_17:9-13; 1Co_7:19; Gal_5:6).
Israel's judgment lasts forever [olam] until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa_32:13-15).
I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence until many generations (Isa_60:15).

Even passages that do not use olam but signify unchanging are not so when God is involved. Nothing can deter Him from achieving His purposes. For example:

Israel's affliction is incurable until the Lord restores health and heals her wounds (Jer_30:12; Jer_30:17).
Samaria's wounds are incurable until the Lord brings them back and restores them (Mic_1:9; Eze_16:53 DOUAY).
Egypt and Elam will rise no more until the Lord brings back their captives (Jer_25:27; Jer_49:39; Eze_29:14).
Moab is destroyed until the Lord brings back the captives of Moab (Jer_48:4; Jer_48:42; Jer_48:47).

New Testament

Turning from the Greek Old Testament, consider the New Testament use of aion. Does "eternity" make any sense in the following passages?

What will be the signof the end of [eternity] (Mat_24:3)?
I am with youto the end of the [eternity] (Mat_28:20).
The sons of this [eternity] are more shrewd (Luk_16:8).
The sons of this [eternity] marry (Luk_20:34).
Worthy to attain that [eternity] (Luk_20:35).
Since the [eternity] began (Joh_9:32; Act_3:21).
Conformed to this [eternity] (Rom_12:2).
Mystery kept secret since the [eternity] began but now made manifest (Rom_16:25-26).
Where is the disputer of this [eternity] (1Co_1:20)?
Wisdom of this [eternity], nor of the rulers of this [eternity]ordained before the [eternities]which none of the rulers of this [eternity] (1Co_2:6-8).
Wise in this [eternity] (1Co_3:18).
Upon whom the ends of the [eternities] have come (1Co_10:11).
God of this [eternity] has blinded (2Co_4:4).
Deliver us from this present evil [eternity] (Gal_1:4).
Not only in this [eternity] but also in that which is to come (Eph_1:21).
Walked according to the [eternity] of this world (Eph_2:2).
In the [eternities] to come (Eph_2:7).
From the beginnings of the [eternities] (Eph_3:9).
Hidden from [eternities]but nowrevealed (Col_1:26).
Loved this present [eternity] (2Ti_4:10).
Receive him [for eternity] (Phm_1:15). Forever or until Onesimus, Philemon's former slave, dies?
Powers of the [eternity] to come (Heb_6:5).
At the end of the [eternities] (Heb_9:26).
We understand the [eternities] have been prepared by a saying of God (Heb_11:3).

Nadiine · Jun 24, 2009

bluediamond said:
I point this out to show that when the church can't find an answer to the problem of the rest of humanity not hearing the gospel and can't see the justice in God sending them to eternal damnation, the church will quite often come up with 'God must have another way'. He doesn't. There is only one way. I'm not specifically pointing the finger at you, because it's something we've all fallen back on.

So, what of the rest of humanity who haven't heard and are not given the so called 'freedom of choice' to believe?

I don't think the church comes up with that.
But for the record, Romans proves the accountability of all mankind to
know God in some form of personal revelation.

Romans 2:14-15 also shows us the same, that God HAS REVEALED
Himself TO ALL people thru a divine revelation of Himself internally
within them.
So that ALL are without excuse who reject & deny.

Rom 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened

What we see above is the process of man willfully suppressing what God is internally showing them about Himself revelationally.
They're rejecting & pushing it down. Further proof of internal revelation of God:
Romans 2:14-15
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,
and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

God has "encoded" man's conscience to know good and evil. A guilty conscience. This is also the work of the Holy Spirit who Christ sent on top of the inner conscience of man.
Those who had ignorance or no law given them, God judged on their
actions according to their conscience;

James confirms this passage regarding the inner conscience:
James 4
17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

(we also know that continual hardening to conviction, causes a searing
of that Conscience over time).

Plus, we now have the Spirit:

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

All people are warned internally by God's Spirit of sin AND their impending
JUDGMENT to come. This is why hell/eternal payment has always
been prevalent in man's psyche and knowledge.
It's the rebellion of it that these false teachings of universal salvation stem from.
(contrary to known doctrine of continued sin, lack of repentance and rejection of Christ - which refutes the gospel message).

Are any of you going to deny that the Spirit doesn't actively convict the
entire world of their sins? If so, you must refute scripture to do it.
(which wouldn't be a first).

Another verse exists for accountablity of all mankind:
Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance,
but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

The time of ignorance and darkness ended when Christ entered
the world and died for sin.
The Spirit is now working over the whole world, convicting people internally.
That didn't exist prior to the Spirit's entry.

Notice why anyone has ignorance right now:
Ephesians 4:18
They are darkened in their understanding and separated
from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them
due to the hardening of their hearts.

In order to reject God & refuse to repent, it's due to hardening the
heart (refusal / suppression of truth - go back to Rom 1).
They have knowledge of God and truth.

Now the issue becomes how much they know and become accountable
for. In no way does it prove people don't to go into eternal
separation from God if they don't have a NT bible or a missionary
is sent to them.

The more one is given, the more accountability they have to act
on that knowledge.

These Universal doctrines are simply man creating a feel-good remedy so they can be happy inside about their God or religion.
Or not be ashamed of them when they relay their beliefs to others who dislike hell/eternal separation.

Of course it isn't pleasant, but it's the gospel - it doesn't surprise me any
since we know that when Jesus revealed the true gospel to people, they
left Him in droves.
Today is no different. They demand a benevolent, genie in a bottle who
grants them all their wishes & desires & only gives them what they want;
any other God that won't do that, is just not "loving".... and "God is love".

Tissue · Jun 24, 2009

Every single verse you quoted, Nadiine, is entirely consistent with a universalist interpretation of Scripture. Again, we do not denigrate the value of repentance.

Nadiine · Jun 24, 2009

Tissue said:
Every single verse you quoted, Nadiine, is entirely consistent with a universalist interpretation of Scripture. Again, we do not denigrate the value of repentance.

I wasn't using it to prove eternal separation Tissue,
I used it to show that ALL mankind has a revelation of God given
by God within them internally, and no one is without excuse of
accepting Him on this earth (while alive).

It sets some groundwork - there are plenty of other scriptures we have
that disprove Universalism.
(and of course what universalists lack in supportive evidence as well)

Nadiine · Jun 24, 2009

Originally Posted by Tissue

Yes, I am liberal.

No, God has not spoken; you've done a lot of it for him, but in my walk with Him, you aren't sounding a whole lot like the One I've come to know.

This should be addressed, since I've been in several
lengthy, detailed Universalist threads at CF.

The fact is, Universalists routinely "speak for God" in scripture
by adding in their personal theology of what they ALREADY
believe to make every verse comply with it.

Many claim that Universalists use many scriptures 'out of
context'; while that is true, what I find being done more
often is a 'reading in' of the theology INTO the verse to
make it mean what they want it to - when the verse in
actuality is not remotely saying that.

A perfect example is in the verse given earlier, that every
knee will bow. What the verse does NOT say is that
these are repentant souls who accept God after they've
died!

We also know from a reading of the gospels, that the demon,
Legion rightfully admits who Christ is and begs Him not to
torment him before his time - interesting.
So why can't the lost be FORCED to bow and acknowledge
God.
After all, why did God create man? TO BE GLORIFIED. What
is more fitting than for God at the very end to demand that
ALL BOW and pay Him homage He rightly deserves as LORD
OF ALL - CREATOR who they spit on in defiance.

That is directly read into the text when it doesn't say it.

Both reading in and taking out of context are are common
in Universalism; and it's mandatory that this be done too,
becuz a proper reading of scripture does not teach this
on its own without a little "help" - in fact, it refutes it in several places directly.

timlamb · Jun 24, 2009

preistsplace said:
With all fairness the belief in your doctrine requires us to believe that ALL DOES NOT MEAN ALL...
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
emphasis mine
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
You argue that all cannot possibly men all in these passages

This is a great promise of God and not to be taken lightly, but it must be interpreted in light of the entire bible.
All does mean all, it is what he is saying about ALL men that you misinterpret. Of course we should have no trouble with Christ being the savior of ALL men, they have no other savior. But Savior denotes an action, one that requires the conditions for salvation to be right. Scripture tells us that not all men will accept the conditions, ie, repentance and acceptance.
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." This one can be a little tougher but again must fit with the consistant message. Who is truth but Jesus Christ? Have all men come unto a knowledge of Christ? This is where the universalist directs attention to a ficticous "after wrath and judgement" repentance. There is no scripture or ground work for this belief. It is merely the desired result considering the alternative in the eyes of some men, but scripture says the second death is "age long" just as life given believers is "age long".
"Who will have all men to be saved". He left no one out. All men are able to come to Him. As others have done for me I have gone to the NASB for an accurate interpretation: "

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God has desired much from man sinse creation and gotten little of what He desired. But instead, God gives man over to his(mans) desires, because of the hardness of his(mans) heart. God desires that all men come to Him willfully, and know Him because He is their Savior. But one only has to read the rest of scripture to know what happens and the need for wrath and judgement and final resolution to the rebellion of man.

timlamb · Jun 24, 2009

preistsplace said:
As far as eternity......
From Hope Beyond Hell available free at http://hopoebeyondhell.net
Old Testament (Greek Septuagint)

In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:

The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament and was the Bible of the early church. The word aion occurs in it about four hundred times in every variety of combination. The adjective aionios derived from it, is used over one hundred times.…Aion denoted an age, great or small, so the adjective aionios expressed the idea pertaining to or belonging to the aion, whether great or small. But in every case this adjective derives its character and duration from the aion to which it refers. 2

In the Septuagint the Greek word, aion, is used to translate the Hebrew word olam. Thus, if we want to get a sense of the New Testament meaning of aion, we need to understand the meaning of olam in the Old Testament. Numerous passages referring to olam show clearly it cannot mean "never-ending." Note these few:

Jonah was in the fish forever [olam] until he left three days later (Jon_1:17; Jon_2:6).
Sodom's fiery judgment is eternal [olam] until God returns them to their former state (Eze_16:53-55; Jud_1:7).
A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation forever [olam] until the 10th generation (Deu_23:3).
Hills are everlasting [olam] until made low…earth is burned up (Gen_49:26; Deu_33:15; Isa_40:4; 2Pe_3:10).
Mountains are everlasting [olam] until they are scattered (Hab_3:6).
A slave serves his master forever [olam] until death ends his servitude (Exo_21:6).
The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam] until it vanishes away (Lev_24:8; Heb_8:7-13).
The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam] until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Exo_40:15; Num_25:13; Heb_7:14-22).
These "stones" are to be a memorial forever until (Jos_4:7)? Where are they now?
The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam] until his death, of course (2Ki_5:27).
God dwells in Solomon's temple forever [olam] until it is destroyed (2Ch_7:16; 1Ki_8:13; 1Ki_9:3).
Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam] until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch_2:4; Heb_7:11-28; Heb_8:1-13; Heb_9:1-28; Heb_10:1-18).
Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant until the new covenant (Gen_17:9-13; 1Co_7:19; Gal_5:6).
Israel's judgment lasts forever [olam] until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa_32:13-15).
I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence until many generations (Isa_60:15).

Even passages that do not use olam but signify unchanging are not so when God is involved. Nothing can deter Him from achieving His purposes. For example:

Israel's affliction is incurable until the Lord restores health and heals her wounds (Jer_30:12; Jer_30:17).
Samaria's wounds are incurable until the Lord brings them back and restores them (Mic_1:9; Eze_16:53 DOUAY).
Egypt and Elam will rise no more until the Lord brings back their captives (Jer_25:27; Jer_49:39; Eze_29:14).
Moab is destroyed until the Lord brings back the captives of Moab (Jer_48:4; Jer_48:42; Jer_48:47).

New Testament

Turning from the Greek Old Testament, consider the New Testament use of aion. Does "eternity" make any sense in the following passages?

What will be the sign…of the end of [eternity] (Mat_24:3)?
I am with you…to the end of the [eternity] (Mat_28:20).
The sons of this [eternity] are more shrewd (Luk_16:8).
The sons of this [eternity] marry (Luk_20:34).
Worthy to attain that [eternity] (Luk_20:35).
Since the [eternity] began (Joh_9:32; Act_3:21).
Conformed to this [eternity] (Rom_12:2).
Mystery kept secret since the [eternity] began but now made manifest (Rom_16:25-26).
Where is the disputer of this [eternity] (1Co_1:20)?
Wisdom of this [eternity], nor of the rulers of this [eternity]…ordained before the [eternities]…which none of the rulers of this [eternity]… (1Co_2:6-8).
Wise in this [eternity] (1Co_3:18).
Upon whom the ends of the [eternities] have come (1Co_10:11).
God of this [eternity] has blinded (2Co_4:4).
Deliver us from this present evil [eternity] (Gal_1:4).
Not only in this [eternity] but also in that which is to come (Eph_1:21).
Walked according to the [eternity] of this world (Eph_2:2).
In the [eternities] to come (Eph_2:7).
From the beginnings of the [eternities] (Eph_3:9).
Hidden from [eternities]…but now…revealed (Col_1:26).
Loved this present [eternity] (2Ti_4:10).
Receive him [for eternity] (Phm_1:15). Forever or until Onesimus, Philemon's former slave, dies?
Powers of the [eternity] to come (Heb_6:5).
At the end of the [eternities] (Heb_9:26).
We understand the [eternities] have been prepared by a saying of God (Heb_11:3).

Doesn't "aion" mean age? and isn't it true that there have been several ages known to man? I think it safe to say that most of the verses you refer to are consistant with the age of man, or even more exclusive, the age of the gentiles. When eternal torment OR eternal life are spoken of the same word is used. but it is in the context of what follows judgement, and we know that after judgement there will be no measure of time. So any mention of "aion" or eon or age, after that means everlasting, no end to the last age according to scripture.

I hope the truth sets you free.

rcorlew · Jun 24, 2009

bluediamond said:
Yes, and that path is Christ... is it not?

Joh 10:1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

Joh 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

I point this out to show that when the church can't find an answer to the problem of the rest of humanity not hearing the gospel and can't see the justice in God sending them to eternal damnation, the church will quite often come up with 'God must have another way'. He doesn't. There is only one way. I'm not specifically pointing the finger at you, because it's something we've all fallen back on.

So, what of the rest of humanity who haven't heard and are not given the so called 'freedom of choice' to believe?

My post was in reference to a previous post, in Romans it clearly points out that there is no excuse for not knowing God and our conscience, which is the laws of God written on our hearts bear witness to Him, is the Law by which those who have not heard the name Jesus will be judged. We will all be judged by the law or by grace through Christ.

My posting which you quoted was in response to an earlier conversation with someone who said there must be another chance for salvation after death otherwise God cannot be a loving God. They were saying that people who live in Africa or China or wherever cannot be condemned by a loving God simply for being ignorant of the law.

Jesus' response to the young man when the man was questioned about keeping the commandments, was to say that he has not seen faith like that. The law does not bring justification in so much that we even know why God would require anybody to live by the law. The law requires faith just as salvation through grace does.

timlamb · Jun 24, 2009

preistsplace said:
2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
From Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin available free http://hopebeyondhell.net
15. Punished with Everlasting Destruction.
(2Th_1:9)

Marvin Vincent, in Word Studies in the New Testament regarding olethron aionion in 2Th_1:9 explained:

If olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, because extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration.In this passage, the word destruction is qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting4 (See "Eternity" on my website for full quote.)

If we cross reference olethros with 1Co_5:5, and its derivative olothrūo in Heb_11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the "first-born" of Egypt (Heb_11:28). Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? What do you think? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we all know God will restore it in the resurrection (1Co_5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (Deu_32:39; 1Sa_2:6; Mat_3:9)? (See also Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbot page 104. See bibliography).

All this analizing and studying results in a specualtion that there is an age AFTER the Great White Throne judgement that just does not exist in scripture.

or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined.

Again it is trying to make scripture achieve the desired results, but it just isn't there!

This immediately follows the Great White Throne Judgement:

Revelation 21 (New International Version)

Revelation 21

The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarstheir place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

This is God's kingdom without end!

Scritpure tells us there is no return from the Lake of Fire, which is the second death:
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Nadiine · Jun 24, 2009

timlamb said:
All this analizing and studying results in a specualtion that there is an age AFTER the Great White Throne judgement that just does not exist in scripture.

Again it is trying to make scripture achieve the desired results, but it just isn't there!

This immediately follows the Great White Throne Judgement:

Revelation 21 (New International Version)

Revelation 21

The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

This is God's kingdom without end!

Scritpure tells us there is no return from the Lake of Fire, which is the second death:
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

In the previous Universalism debates, this was the same bit of
evidence we demanded they provide for evidence.

Show us when these sinners pay for their sins (which God already did
on the cross for us; it's why we never hit a white throne judgment
but a judgment on our works only - 1 Cor 3) ---
and then we see them repenting and receiving salvation, then being
released and put into the 'saved' population with the rest of the saints.

Where is that in the whole Revelation story
Instead, we see them being thrown in & it's the end of the book.
The saints enjoy the new creation.
Rev. is a chronological book -
Rev 1
19 Write the things which you have seen,(past)
and the things which are, (present)
and the things which will take place after this. (future)

So we would see to the very end of time;

If this was a true doctrine, it would be one of the most important
aspects of Revelation to see these lost souls repenting & getting
out of Hades or lake of fire. Wouldn't it?
I sure think so becuz of the significance of the doctrine.

This is sure one obscure doctrine for the significance it is, not to
be shown in the future events to come as the rebellious repent
and get released from their torment.

It makes no sense to me why it's non existant if it's such a profound
doctrine (which other verses directly refutes). It should be there.

timlamb · Jun 24, 2009

Yes Nadiine, well said!!

Especially the chronology of Revelation 21, the new beginning:
Verse 5- 5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"(EVERYTHING BEING MADE PERFECT) Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." (JOHN INSTRUCTED TO GET THIS FOR THE RECORD)
vERSE 6- 6He said to me: "It is done. (THAT'S IT, COMPLETED)I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.(AND ETERNAL LIFE IS RESTORED TO MAN)
vERSE 7- 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (WHO INHERITS THE KINGDOM? THE OVERCOMER!)
VERSE 8- 8 But(AND WHO DOES NOT INHERIT...) the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars(...THOSE WHO REMAIN IN THEIR SIN)—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

HOW CAN THIS NOT BE UNDERSTOOD?

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