Universalism

Jase · Jun 18, 2009

Zaac said:
I'm not quoting me. I'm quoting God. It's His Scripture. What are yall quoting when pulling folks out of an eternal Lake of Fire?

Hell is not the Lake of Fire Zaac. In fact, the lake of fire destroys hell and everything in it.

Zaac · Jun 18, 2009

Jase said:
Hell is not the Lake of Fire Zaac. In fact, the lake of fire destroys hell and everything in it.

I didn't say that hell is the Lake of Fire.

ShermanN · Jun 18, 2009

Biblical Universalism

Several years ago I was first introduced to the concept of Universal Salvation and the scriptural evidence that indicates such. Romans 5 is probably the clearest and most compelling passage in support of the salvation of all humanity. Vs. 18 spells it out specifically saying, "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." I appreciate how The Message puts it, "Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!"

As I studied scriptures like this that indicate that the sacrifice of Christ applies to all humanity, and because of the sacrifice of Christ all humanity is saved, I was being increasingly drawn to embrace such in faith, trusting God not only for my salvation but also for the salvation of all humanity. Universal Salvation

In order to counter this draw I was feeling towards Universalism, I decided to do a study of scriptures that spoke of Judgment and Hell. But as I studied these scriptures I came to understand Hell differently. In fact, the study of Judgment and Hell actually moved me to embrace the belief that through the Sacrifice of Christ all humanity is saved. I have increasingly come to believe in what I refer to as Biblical Universalism Universal Judgment, Universal Purification, and Universal Salvation.

Concerning Judgment, its for everyone, believers and non-believers alike. And Judgment is based on how we actually live our lives, what we did with the revelation, blessings, and talents that we've received from God; judgment is not based upon our faith, but upon how we actually live. Christians and non-believers alike will suffer loss in the Judgment. There will be tears of repentance (weeping) and remorse (gnashing of teeth) for us all as we stand before the Lord and the good and bad of our lives is fully disclosed for us to see. - Universal Judgment.

Then I started studying scriptures concerning "Hell" and found much that challenged my traditional beliefs. Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. The Roman Church had significant influence in England from an early date, and thus the Romanthat is, Mediterraneanbelief that hell was hot, a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned prevailed. But of course, scripture was not written in English, but in Hebrew and Greek; so I started studying the various words that are translated as Hell. This is when my tipping point came, when I uncovered a piece of information that caused me to change my traditional beliefs and accept Universal Reconciliation.

In brief, I found that the word Gehenna that Jesus used to speak of punishment in the afterlife did not mean endless torture; rather, Gehenna meant a place of punishing purification that aligned more with the Catholic concept of Purgatory than it did of Hell (endless torture).

Gehenna (Greek) is actually a transliteration (not translation) of the Hebrew phrase Ge-Hinnom (valley of Hinnom), which was a valley just outside Jerusalem that was used as a trash dump during the time of Christ. As a trash dumb there was a continuous fire (everlasting fire) and an almost continuous presence of maggots consuming dead flesh (worm dies not). This is information readily available in the various Bible lexicons and encyclopedias. I happened to think though, Was Gehenna a word loaded with theological meaning to the first century Jew? And specifically, Did Gehenna speak of endless torture to the first century Jew? The answer to these questions changed my beliefs concerning Hell and universalism.

Was Gehenna a word loaded with theological meaning to the first century Jew? Yes, in fact, Gehenna was a metaphor commonly used by Rabbis during the time of Christ to speak of punishment in the afterlife. Contemporaries of Christ, the Rabbinical schools of Shammai and Hillel (both Pharisees) discussed their various beliefs concerning the nature of Gehenna. In other words, when Jesus spoke of Gehenna, He did not speak in a vacuum, using words that no one understood; rather, Jesus used words, concepts, idioms, modes of communication, etc., that His first century audience could readily understand.

So, what did Gehenna mean to a first century Jew? And specifically, Did Gehenna speak of endless torture to the first century Jew? In short, no, it did not speak of endless torture! Rather, it spoke of a place/event of punishing purification. During the time of Christ, the Pharisees, the largest religious/political/social group of the Jews, believed in the resurrection life after death. The next most significant group, the Sadducees, did not believe in life after death, but in the cessation of existence.

Anyhow, the predominant schools of theology among the Pharisees of the 1st Century were the rabbinical schools of Shammai and Hillel. They both used Gehenna to speak metaphorically of punishing purification in the afterlife. They taught that only the very righteous went straight to the Garden of Eden (Paradise, Heaven); everyone else went to Gehenna. In Gehenna a person received the purification and punishment that they needed before being admitted to the Garden of Eden. They believed that the longest anyone could be in Gehenna was 12 months, but most people were surely not so bad as to require the full 12 months, but most were released before 11 months. In fact, they developed their period of mourning for the dead on this concept. To this day, Jews traditionally do not mourn a loved one more than 11 months because to mourn them longer implied that the deceased loved one was especially evil.

The Jews also had the practice of praying for, offering alms for, sacrificing for, and even being baptized for recently deceased loved ones. These practices were meant to in some way lessen the suffering and provide comfort for the deceased loved one. And doesnt even Peter mention the baptism for the dead in an affirmative tone, implying its usefulness.

The rabbinical schools of Shammai and Hillel argued over whether anyone was wicked enough to not be purified in Gehenna, but rather to be either annihilated or possibly even suffer endlessly. But such punishment was only considered for the most wicked of people.

Concerning Gentiles, they too were purified in Gehenna before being admitted to the Garden of Eden. God was a righteous judge and only held people accountable for the revelation theyd received and the covenants to which they were members of. Being in covenant with God was understood to be a great privilege, but great privilege carries with it great responsibility.

Well, this is too long of a post already, so Ill close for now. Rom. 5.18, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Blessings,
Sherman

Zaac · Jun 18, 2009

And He Who is Life did bring it for all men. But some men CHOOSE to reject Life in favor of death. And HE allows them to.

timlamb · Jun 18, 2009

Zaac said:
And He Who is Life did bring it for all men. But some men CHOOSE to reject Life in favor of death. And HE allows them to.

And some, who think man is less rebellious than he is, cannot accept this.
Those who think all men will one day turn to repentance and become holy do not understand the nature of man.

Rajni · Jun 18, 2009

ShermanN said:
Anyhow, the predominant schools of theology among the Pharisees of the 1st Century were the rabbinical schools of Shammai and Hillel. They both used Gehenna to speak metaphorically of punishing purification in the afterlife. They taught that only the very righteous went straight to the Garden of Eden (Paradise, Heaven); everyone else went to Gehenna. In Gehenna a person received the purification and punishment that they needed before being admitted to the Garden of Eden. They believed that the longest anyone could be in Gehenna was 12 months, but most people were surely not so bad as to require the full 12 months, but most were released before 11 months. In fact, they developed their period of mourning for the dead on this concept. To this day, Jews traditionally do not mourn a loved one more than 11 months because to mourn them longer implied that the deceased loved one was especially evil.

This is really interesting!

.

Rajni · Jun 18, 2009

timlamb said:
Those who think all men will one day turn to repentance and become holy do not understand the nature of man.

Man's nature can be a challenge to understand,
for sure, but perhaps those who think some men
will never turn to repentance and become holy do
not understand the power of God.

.

.

.

timlamb · Jun 18, 2009

chaela said:
Man's nature can be a challenge to understand,
for sure, but perhaps those who think some men
will never turn to repentance and become holy do
not understand the power of God.

.

.

.

God's power made it possible.
God's grace made it optional.
God's mercy gave us time to decide.

Men want to be gods. Only those who let God be God have their natures altered.

Rajni · Jun 18, 2009

timlamb said:
God's power made it possible.
God's grace made it optional.
God's mercy gave us time to decide.

Men want to be gods. Only those who let God be God have their natures altered.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]The fact that God [/FONT]is [FONT=verdana,sans-serif]God already is enough. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Man has no choice but to let Him be God. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Man is just mere man, though their desire to be god would have them
think God can't be God until such a time as they "let" Him.

.
[/FONT]

ShermanN · Jun 18, 2009

chaela said:
Man's nature can be a challenge to understand,
for sure, but perhaps those who think some men
will never turn to repentance and become holy do
not understand the power of God.

"do not understand the power of God." And make a lot of man's very limited range of choices. For example, we have no choice as to when we are born, to whom we're to be born, where we are born, what kind of family we'll be born into, how long we'll live, what language will be our mother tongue, whether we'll be taught to read and write, whether we'll hear the gospel or not, what our personality type will be, how receptive we'll be to the gospel "if" we even hear it, how predisposed by DNA and experiece we'll be to accept or reject the gospel "if" we hear it, etc. etc. etc.

Almost all of our lives and being is sovereignly established by God. Of course, God and scripture encourages us to make right choices for the relatively few choices that we actually have a chance to make. But to think that our eternal salvation, how we'll spend eternity is completely up to us is, well, making a lot out of almost nothing. Considering the scope of our individual lives and the thousands of decisions that are made for us, we actually have choice over very little, almost nothing.

I'm just thankful that the Lord chose that I should be born in a Christian family, predisposed by DNA and a myriad of circumstances, and inspired by the Holy Spirit to receive Christ as my savior and Lord. PTL!

timlamb · Jun 18, 2009

ShermanN said:
"do not understand the power of God." And make a lot of man's very limited range of choices. For example, we have no choice as to when we are born, to whom we're to be born, where we are born, what kind of family we'll be born into, how long we'll live, what language will be our mother tongue, whether we'll be taught to read and write, whether we'll hear the gospel or not, what our personality type will be, how receptive we'll be to the gospel "if" we even hear it, how predisposed by DNA and experiece we'll be to accept or reject the gospel "if" we hear it, etc. etc. etc.

Almost all of our lives and being is sovereignly established by God. Of course, God and scripture encourages us to make right choices for the relatively few choices that we actually have a chance to make. But to think that our eternal salvation, how we'll spend eternity is completely up to us is, well, making a lot out of almost nothing. Considering the scope of our individual lives and the thousands of decisions that are made for us, we actually have choice over very little, almost nothing.

I'm just thankful that the Lord chose that I should be born in a Christian family, predisposed by DNA and a myriad of circumstances, and inspired by the Holy Spirit to receive Christ as my savior and Lord. PTL!

To say you don't have choices is just shifting the responsibility for your actions to God. The Bible is very clear, the choices of man condemns him, man must choose to turm from those choices. To deny the choice is to take the broad path that leads to destruction. We must choose the narrow path of Holiness, for eternal life.

ShermanN · Jun 18, 2009

timlamb said:
To say you don't have choices is just shifting the responsibility for your actions to God. The Bible is very clear, the choices of man condemns him, man must choose to turm from those choices. To deny the choice is to take the broad path that leads to destruction. We must choose the narrow path of Holiness, for eternal life.

Actually, I didn't say that we "don't have choices". There really is no need to mis-state another's point. Actually, I affirmed that we do make choices; but in comparison to all the choices that God makes for our lives, well, there really is no comparison.

Our choices do influence our temporal lives and whether our lives are ruined or blessed; and they do effect our rewards and/or punishments of our eternal lives. Paul speaks of even believers suffering loss when our lives are judged. But to think that our eternal salvation rests completely with our ability to make right decisions is about like giving a three year old a bomb and telling them that if they don't diffuse it that it will go off in 10 minutes.

But of course, above all this musing over the very limited scope of choices we can make, scripture says that Jesus is the "savior of ALL humanity, especially those who believe." (1 Tim. 4.10). And of course, Paul elsewhere says that, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor. 15.22). And of course Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live." (Jn. 5.24-25).

Blessings,
Sherman

preistsplace · Jun 18, 2009

timlamb said:
And some, who think man is less rebellious than he is, cannot accept this.
Those who think all men will one day turn to repentance and become holy do not understand the nature of man.

So then you believe that mans will to sin is stronger than Gods will to save...That Is not a Theological standpoint that I would take.....God's will is always the greater force. And are we not refered to as children....I do not my children have absolute control over their decisions..

preistsplace · Jun 18, 2009

Oh and the point is not how rebellious man is but rather how Great God is!!!!!!!!!!!

preistsplace · Jun 18, 2009

timlamb said:
To say you don't have choices is just shifting the responsibility for your actions to God. The Bible is very clear, the choices of man condemns him, man must choose to turm from those choices. To deny the choice is to take the broad path that leads to destruction. We must choose the narrow path of Holiness, for eternal life.

I have never argued the fact that man is not responsible for his choices .!!!I have only argued the fact that God gives measured punishment and if he punishes all unrepentant sinners for an eternity then there is judging man by his deeds which is the prevalent scriptural veiw....I Love the Lord and will serve him in any way I can.... And so that you know I and many Universalists do not take God's punishments lightly, for truly "it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God....

preistsplace · Jun 18, 2009

timlamb said:
God's power made it possible.
God's grace made it optional.
God's mercy gave us time to decide.

Men want to be gods. Only those who let God be God have their natures altered.

And all eventually will let God be God....1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. ...The emphasis is mine

timlamb · Jun 18, 2009

Rajni · Jun 18, 2009

timlamb said:
This is a load of crap. A cheap shot univeralist arguement.

The claim that God's will is the greater force is a "load of crap"?
Wait ... which side are you on again?

God allows man the right to make mistakes

If a partialist believes that God allows us the right to make
mistakes, why would he then preach that this same god will inflict
endless misery or outright annihilation for making those mistakes?
Since when should one be punished for doing what they "had the
right" to do?

With rights go responsibilities

Yes, with rights come responsibility.
Don't you think God has rights?
With power also comes responsibility.
Don't you think God is all-powerful?

You guys have a bunch of stale cheap arguements that go in a circle and you deny truth.

Again with the demonizing when one is backed into a corner.
People generally get angry when they fear they might be wrong
about something they hold dear.

If it's any consolation, your salvation doesn't ride on where you
stand on this issue, so it's okay to look into it without feeling your
eternity is at stake for doing so.

Tissue · Jun 18, 2009

Zaac said:
There is a difference between trying to figure out what Scripture is saying and teaching an untrue doctrine as truth. Yall are attempting to do the latter.

It's plainly obvious to all who read your posts that you haven't a clue what you're talking about, nor do you have a leg to stand on. You are claiming to know that we are being purposefully malicious in regards to Scripture. There is no possible way for you to know this. Instead, you are upset that our inquiries are willing to accept interpretations that run contrary to your own. Apparently, you are so deeply troubled by any idea that might imply that you are wrong, that you assume the person entertaining that idea is deceitful/malicious/arrogant/wrong. On the contrary.

I can deal with it just fine. As a matter of fact, God's word directs me as to how to deal with such things.

Of course, the verse you quoted does not actually show how our verses are heresies, so it doesn't really apply to the discussion.

I'm not quoting me. I'm quoting God. It's His Scripture. What are yall quoting when pulling folks out of an eternal Lake of Fire?

I listed a number of verses that you did not respond to. It is plainly obvious to all who read them that, in them, there is at least a reason to ponder over this issue of partial/universal salvation.

I am not, by the way, threatened by your stubborn-ness. I'm quite aware that you do not speak for God, and thus, do not worry over your mishandling of Scripture, and your condemnation. But I do think you could use education.

timlamb · Jun 19, 2009

chaela;52124127]The claim that God's will is the greater force is a "load of crap"?

You made the assurtion that I believed God's will was weak, that is a cheap shot load of crap!

Wait ... which side are you on again?

And this is another cheap shot that is baiting AND rude!

If a partialist believes that God allows us the right to make
mistakes, why would he then preach that this same god will inflict
endless misery or outright annihilation for making those mistakes?
Since when should one be punished for doing what they "had the
right" to do?

Once again a phoney arguement made to go in circles. God doesn't INFLICT the lake of fire on anyone, it was made for Satan and his followers. Romans 1:20 says men are without excuse. We chose our destination.
As far as having the "right". You are just picking on words and avoiding the truth. Nothing happens but that God permits it, God considers our own wills to be very important. He gives us over to our hearts, we can chose right or wrong, and we get what we ask for.

Yes, with rights come responsibility.
Don't you think God has rights?
With power also comes responsibility.
Don't you think God is all-powerful?

Once again, circular questions to avoid the truth. God is truth, and truth doesn't have "rights", truth just "IS". Truth establishes the "rights" for every thing else and in this case truth give you permission to deny truth, even though you are wrong.

Again with the demonizing when one is backed into a corner.
People generally get angry when they fear they might be wrong
about something they hold dear.

Yes, and universalists get quite angry when challenged. I just get sick of the baiting and double talk.

If it's any consolation, your salvation doesn't ride on where you
stand on this issue, so it's okay to look into it without feeling your
eternity is at stake for doing so.

Again with the baiting and accusations. I believe in biblical salvation and know by Jesus I am saved. It is all those you and your brothers in univeralism lead astray that concern me, I wouldn't even be taling to you if it wasn't for them.

Universalism

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Senior Veteran

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Liberated by God's Unconditional Love

Liberated by God's Unconditional Love

Liberated by God's Unconditional Love

Liberated by God's Unconditional Love

Senior Veteran

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency