Universalism...why not?

[Dartman]

BUMP FOR ClementofA!

Nobody is gone forever. The resurrection of all is coming.

You are avoiding the issue. The END of the wicked is to be like Sodom and Gomorrah are NOW! Gone!

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)

You're slashing this out of context. This passage is talking about the restoration of the NATION of Israel, it isn't talking about your theory. No Scripture explains your theory!
The end of the wicked is "not be", "not be found", "ashes", "burned up", "left neither root nor branch", etc.

 

[mkgal1]

I realize you're addressing Clement...but what about this?:

"As I live," says the Lord God, "neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit." (Ezekiel 16:48-50 NKJV)​

That was to Israel. Apparently Israel has done worse than Sodom...yet, Romans 11:26 tells us that ultimately "all Israel shall be saved."

Don't we also read that "God isn't a respector of persons"? (Acts 10:34)

It doesn't make sense to me that one group has one set of rules and the other group has something different.



Then there's this passage:

"When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state." (Ezekiel 16:55)​

​

That seems to me to be good support for this statement Clement posted to be true:

Nobody is gone forever. The resurrection of all is coming.

....and the relevance and truth of this verse he also posted:

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)


​

 

[ClementofA]

Oh yes. Now let us construct an entire doctrine based on what Origen might have written but now might be destroyed.

Doctrine is based on Scripture, not Jewish beliefs & sites you often quote.

 

[Der Alte]

I realize you're addressing Clement...but what about this?:

"As I live," says the Lord God, "neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit." (Ezekiel 16:48-50 NKJV)​

That was to Israel. Apparently Israel has done worse than Sodom...yet, Romans 11:26 tells us that ultimately "all Israel shall be saved."

True all Israel will be saved but there is a condition.

Romans 11:26-27
(26) and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
(27) And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Romans 11:20-21
(20) Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
(21) For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Romans 11:23
(23) And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.​

Don't we also read that "God isn't a respector of persons"? (Acts 10:34)
It doesn't make sense to me that one group has one set of rules and the other group has something different.
Then there's this passage:

"When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state." (Ezekiel 16:55)​

That seems to me to be good support for this statement Clement posted to be true:​

....and the relevance and truth of this verse he also posted:

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)​

There is also a condition for Lam 3:31

Malachi 3:7
(7) Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty. "But you ask, 'How are we to return?'​

 

[ClementofA]

If not what was your purpose for posting all those verses?

Already stated. See the post.

You call it tentmakers, I call it tents-я-us. Once upon a time there was another uni website called "Hellbusters" that was frequently copy/pasted here. I called them "hellmakers" and "tentbusters." I know their writing style and I know yours.

Clearly you didn't know i wasn't copy pasting from them.

Your quote implied that the Biblical concept of Hell was copied from the Quran.

Not as i read it. Though bibles with the mistranslation of aionios can lead people to the same belief.

​

 

[mkgal1]

True all Israel will be saved but there is a condition.
Romans 11:26-27
(26) and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
(27) And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Romans 11:20-21
(20) Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
(21) For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Romans 11:23
(23) And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Isn't it possible that there could be a cycle of "breaking off" and grafting back in (of some sort)--and that it can apply to ALL (not just Israel)....and that is what's meant by "turning away godlessness" and "taking away their sins"?

Malachi 3:7
(7) Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty

.....and I believe that His love will cause all creation to return to Him (completely out of free will).

 

[mkgal1]

I'm glad you mentioned Malachi 3, Der Alter....look at more of that passage:

Who can endure the day of his coming?
Who can withstand his appearance?
He is like the refiner’s fire or the cleaner’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver.
He will purify the Levites
and refine them like gold and silver.
They will belong to the Lord,
presenting a righteous offering.
4 The offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord
as in ancient days and in former years.
5 I will draw near to you for judgment.
I will be quick to testify against the sorcerers,
the adulterers, those swearing falsely,
against those who cheat the day laborers out of their wages
as well as oppress the widow and the orphan,
and against those who brush aside the foreigner and do not revere me,
says the Lord of heavenly forces.
6 I am the Lord, and I do not change;
and you, children of Jacob, have not perished.​

*********************************************************
In that I see that He "doesn't let the guilty go unpunished" (when it says "I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, the adulterers, those swearing falsely....").....but also see the mentions of "refining" and "soap" and "not perished".

 

[Dartman]

I realize you're addressing Clement...but what about this?:

"As I live," says the Lord God, "neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit." (Ezekiel 16:48-50 NKJV)​

So, where is Sodom and Gomorrah today?
Gone. Where there was lush plain is now harsh, barren wilderness. The people have returned to dust, are "sleeping in the dust" waiting to be resurrected.
That is the example. That is the point of reference.
It is TRUE that the individuals who lived in Sodom and Gomorrah WILL be resurrected to judgment. And those whose names are NOT written in the book of life will be "burned up", "left neither root nor branch".

That was to Israel. Apparently Israel has done worse than Sodom...yet, Romans 11:26 tells us that ultimately "all Israel shall be saved."

You need to look at the contexts, rather than quoting snippets.

Even just including the one word "thus" before "all Israel shall be saved"... helps you harmonize this statement with ALL of the information about Israel's salvation. The word "thus" forces us to consider the conditions listed in the context;
Rom 11:22-27 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

And, how do the Scriptures say Jesus will "take away the sins of Israel" from Zion? REMEMBER, Paul made this statement AFTER Jesus had come out of Nazareth, and had died for sins!! This is something specific to Israel, AFTER "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"!
Here is what the Scriptures say;
Ezek 20:33-38 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


Zech 13:8-9 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Israel is going to be "purged", only those that BELIEVE will be allowed into the land, the rest will be slain.
Luke 19:26-28 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. 28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

THIS is how "all Israel will be saved". You simply MUST look at ALL of the information, BEFORE you jump to assumptions!!

Don't we also read that "God isn't a respector of persons"? (Acts 10:34)

It doesn't make sense to me that one group has one set of rules and the other group has something different.

Excellent point, you just misapplied it.

EVERY group has the same rules;
Eccl 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.

(Lam.3:31)

Again, you need to expand your reading to the context, The book of Lamentations is written specifically to the NATION of Israel;
Lam 3:25-32 The Lord is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.
27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.
29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.
31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 But though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.

This verse very simply does NOT make your point.

 

[ClementofA]

Now according to the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation. I'm sure the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated this version knew the meaning of עולם /olam and used it correctly.

​

What gives you so much faith in the translations of biased non Christians whose ancestors were the Pharisees?

The JPS got numerous translations wrong. For example:

For the palace shall be forsaken; The city with its stir shall be deserted; The mound and the tower shall be for dens for ever, A joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; (Isa.32:14)

That the words "for ever" is a lie is proven by the next verse:

Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, And the wilderness become a fruitful field, And the fruitful field be counted for a forest. (Isa.32:15)

The JPS erred in translating OLAM in Isa.32:14.

The JPS also got it wrong translating OLAM as everlasting in Daniel 12:2.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

 

[Der Alte]

I'm glad you mentioned Malachi 3, Der Alter....look at more of that passage:

Who can endure the day of his coming?
Who can withstand his appearance?
He is like the refiner’s fire or the cleaner’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver.
He will purify the Levites
and refine them like gold and silver.
They will belong to the Lord,
presenting a righteous offering.
4 The offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord
as in ancient days and in former years.
5 I will draw near to you for judgment.
I will be quick to testify against the sorcerers,
the adulterers, those swearing falsely,
against those who cheat the day laborers out of their wages
as well as oppress the widow and the orphan,
and against those who brush aside the foreigner and do not revere me,
says the Lord of heavenly forces.
6 I am the Lord, and I do not change;
and you, children of Jacob, have not perished.​

*********************************************************
In that I see that He "doesn't let the guilty go unpunished" (when it says "I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, the adulterers, those swearing falsely....").....but also see the mentions of "refining" and "soap" and "not perished".

I think you stopped reading too soon.

Malachi 4:1-3
(1) "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
(2) But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.
(3) Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.​

 

[Der Alte]

What gives you so much faith in the translations of biased non Christians whose ancestors were the Pharisees?

I'm waiting for someone here who knows a hithpael from a hatpin to prove from credible Hebrew lexicons that the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars got anything wrong in the JPS

The JPS got numerous translations wrong. For example:

This is a very sad joke! How can someone who doesn't know a hithpael from a hatpin even think about criticizing any translation in the JPS.

For the palace shall be forsaken; The city with its stir shall be deserted; The mound and the tower shall be for dens for ever, A joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; (Isa.32:14)
That the words "for ever" is a lie is proven by the next verse:
Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, And the wilderness become a fruitful field, And the fruitful field be counted for a forest. (Isa.32:15)
The JPS erred in translating OLAM in Isa.32:14.
The JPS also got it wrong translating OLAM as everlasting in Daniel 12:2.
Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD

..."

All rubbish. Here is something I found online that will explain my position.

There are many things that can cause a person to misinterpret what is written in various translations of the Bible. Many Christians do not realize that some of the most popular Bible translations do not accurately convey the true meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I believe one of the leading causes of stumbling is not being aware that the original language of the Bible (Hebrew) is a highly exaggerative language, sometimes even to the point of what would appear to be lying from a Western point of view. Most Bible translations and Bible teachers do not point this out clearly enough....the Bible is FULL OF HYPERBOLE WHICH SHOULDN’T BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
​

I would think twice before blowing this off because it is from you pet website tents-я-us

 

[ClementofA]

I'm waiting for someone here who knows a hithpael from a hatpin to prove from credible Hebrew lexicons that the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars got anything wrong in the JPS

That didn't answer the question:

"What gives you so much faith in the translations of biased non Christians whose ancestors were the Pharisees?"

Is it blind faith?

You are sure they translated OLAM correctly. Are you sure they translated their entire English translation correctly too? Are you also sure their doctrines are correct and they chose the right religion? How sure are you that they are not decieved or demonicly influenced? Have you met these people? Are these Jews a non profit charitable organization, or in it for the almighty dollar, i.e. selling their merchandize? Did all scholars unanimously agree on every word in the JPS translation? How many were involved? What were their beliefs re hell?

5769. olam
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation

Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

A number of translations don't use the ridiculous "for ever" at Isa.32:14:

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
Study Bible - Online Greek Hebrew KJV Parallel Interlinear Tools
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/

 

[Der Alte]

That didn't answer the question:
"What gives you so much faith in the translations of biased non Christians whose ancestors were the Pharisees?"
Is it blind faith?

Let me turn that question around what gives you so much faith in all the folks, that tell you exactly what you want to hear, at tents-я-us? Is it blind faith?

You are sure they translated OLAM correctly.

Irrelevant! Are you sure tents-я-us translated olam correctly?

Are you sure they translated their entire English translation correctly too?

Irrelevant! Are you sure tents-я-us translated their entire English translation correctly too?

Are you also sure their doctrines are correct and they chose the right religion?

Irrelevant! Are you also sure that tents-я-us' doctrines are correct and they chose the right religion?

How sure are you that they are not decieved or demonicly influenced?

Irrelevant! Are you sure tents-я-us is not deceived or demonically influenced??

Have you met these people?

Irrelevant! Have you met the people at tents-я-us?

Are these Jews a non profit charitable organization, or in it for the almighty dollar, i.e. selling their merchandize?

Irrelevant! Is tents-я-us a non profit charitable organization, or in it for the almighty dollar, i.e. selling their merchandise?

Did all scholars unanimously agree on every word in the JPS translation?

Irrelevant! Did all the scholars at tens-я-us unanimously agree on every word in their translations?

How many were involved? What were their beliefs re hell?

Irrelevant! How many at tents-я-us were involved? What were their beliefs re hell?
As for your cherry picked "exhaustive concordances" Irrelevant.
All rubbish.
Here is something I found online that will explain my position. You should not ignore this.

There are many things that can cause a person to misinterpret what is written in various translations of the Bible. Many Christians do not realize that some of the most popular Bible translations do not accurately convey the true meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I believe one of the leading causes of stumbling is not being aware that the original language of the Bible (Hebrew) is a highly exaggerative language, sometimes even to the point of what would appear to be lying from a Western point of view. Most Bible translations and Bible teachers do not point this out clearly enough....the Bible is FULL OF HYPERBOLE WHICH SHOULDN’T BE TAKEN LITERALLY!​

Please advise me if/when you can find a credible source which proves any of this wrong. Some "source' giving alternate meanings does not prove anything about BDB.

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in KitHpt); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 G Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11 G B Michaelis conj. מַעְלִם for מֵעוֹלָם; cf. I. [עָלַם] Hiph. ψ 10:1; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futuring, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17 1 S 27:12 Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live alway 1 K 1:31 Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself 89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25 Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5 Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8 Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(×2). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(×2), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(×2), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51, 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5 1 Ch 28:4, 7 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29(×2) = 1 Ch 17:27(×2); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21 Is 57:16 Je 3:5, 12 La 3:31 Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22 Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12 Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7 Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: ם(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7 Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further i. עַד p. 723.

Brown, Francis; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: [BDB] Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 761​

I would think twice before blowing this off because it is from you pet website tents-я-us

 

[ClementofA]

Exo 21:6...another JPS screwup:

New International Version
then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

New American Standard Bible
then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

JPS Tanakh 1917
then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

 

[Der Alte]

Exo 21:6...another JPS screwup:
New International Version
then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
New American Standard Bible
then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
JPS Tanakh 1917
then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

I suggest you read this and memorize it.

There are many things that can cause a person to misinterpret what is written in various translations of the Bible. Many Christians do not realize that some of the most popular Bible translations do not accurately convey the true meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I believe one of the leading causes of stumbling is not being aware that the original language of the Bible (Hebrew) is a highly exaggerative language, sometimes even to the point of what would appear to be lying from a Western point of view. Most Bible translations and Bible teachers do not point this out clearly enough....the Bible is FULL OF HYPERBOLE WHICH SHOULDN’T BE TAKEN LITERALLY!​

This quote is from an article on hyperbole in the Bible. I found it at your pet website tents-я-us.
Bible Matters--Hyperbole
It seems the universal "bible" only acknowledges hyperbole in the Bible when it is convenient and suits their purpose.

 

[Der Alte]

Exo 21:6...another JPS screwup:
New International Version
then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
New American Standard Bible
then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
JPS Tanakh 1917
then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Your manipulation of scripture does not trump or disprove the credible, verifiable, historical sources I quoted e.g. the Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon, quoted above.

 

[Der Alte]

....Inexplicable duplicate post deleted....

 

[ClementofA]

JPS managed to get this OLAM translated decently here without making it the ridiculous "everlasting" or similar type nonsense:

And they that shall be of thee shall build the old(OLAM) waste places... (Isa.58:12a)

ancient(OLAM) (Isa.58:12, NIV).

OLAM is the same word used in Daniel 12:2-3:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

============================================



https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

 

[Dartman]

BUMP FOR ClementofA.. SECOND ATTEMPT! (Technically 3rd attempt, 2nd BUMP)

Nobody is gone forever. The resurrection of all is coming.

You are avoiding the issue. The END of the wicked is to be like Sodom and Gomorrah are NOW! Gone!

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)

You're slashing this out of context. This passage is talking about the restoration of the NATION of Israel, it isn't talking about your theory. No Scripture explains your theory!
The end of the wicked is "not be", "not be found", "ashes", "burned up", "left neither root nor branch", etc.

 

[ClementofA]

BUMP FOR ClementofA.. SECOND ATTEMPT! (Technically 3rd attempt, 2nd BUMP)

Dartman, if i don't respond to any of your posts, that means i disagree and or find your comments not worth responding to. For example when the points you make are weak or unsupported by facts. I'd advise you to drop the subject. Your time would be better spent answering some of my posts you never answered.