Universalism...why not?

[Dartman]

What an incredibly sad state of "Research," we have to tolerate out here.

Here is a plethera of scholarly article, papers, and books tracing the roots back over 500 years before Christ! Thanks for you merriam reference dude.

Now lets here from some scholars:

"Within Second Temple Judaism, Sheol is transformed into a place of differentiation: the souls of the righteous depart to a place of blessing, the wicked to a place of torment.

All you have managed to document is the Hellenization of many Jews.
Jesus harshly contradicted them... and told them "ye do greatly err, not knowing the Scriptures, or the power of God."
The Jewish "scholars" are an unreliable, polluted source.
The Early Church Fathers are no better!! They were just as influenced by pagan philosophy, if not MORE!!
The ONLY reliable source is Scripture!

 

[gordonhooker]

All you have managed to document is the Hellenization of many Jews.
Jesus harshly contradicted them... and told them "ye do greatly err, not knowing the Scriptures, or the power of God."
The Jewish "scholars" are an unreliable, polluted source.
The Early Church Fathers are no better!! They were just as influenced by pagan philosophy, if not MORE!!
The ONLY reliable source is Scripture!

What a ridiculous statement - who do you think transcribed/copied and determined what the canon of scripture would be other than the Early Church Fathers? Was there some other group at the early ecumenical councils, that determined what scripture was in and what scripture was out?

 

[Dartman]

What a ridiculous statement - who do you think transcribed/copied and determined what the canon of scripture would be other than the Early Church Fathers? Was there some other group at the early ecumenical councils, that determined what scripture was in and what scripture was out?

Who do you think inspired the Scriptures??
If the Muslims and the Buddhists were determining the canon, I suspect God would have seen to it His word came out ok.
The so called "Apostles Creed" is an excellent testimony to the better understanding of Scriptures held by most of the Elders and Deacons of the 2nd century Church;

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,

born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.

He descended into hell. The third day He rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

None of the "trinitarian" heresy of the 4th century!!

 

[gordonhooker]

Who do you think inspired the Scriptures??
If the Muslims and the Buddhists were determining the canon, I suspect God would have seen to it His word came out ok.
The so called "Apostles Creed" is an excellent testimony to the better understanding of Scriptures held by most of the Elders and Deacons of the 2nd century Church;

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,

born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.

He descended into hell. The third day He rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

None of the "trinitarian" heresy of the 4th century!!

You really are not too in touch those elders and Deacons were early church Fathers whom you were denigrating in the post I responded to.

 

[ClementofA]

I will try to clear up your confusion.
Hitler is dead. He is no longer ashamed.
The Germans are not dead. Hitler's actions still bring them shame.
The RESULT of Hitler's actions still produce shame, and contempt.
The RESULT of the wicked's actions is "everlasting shame and contempt".
Dan 12:2 does NOT claim the wicked are EXPERIENCING "shame", nor does it make any
sense they would feel contempt, given the MEANING of "contempt"! It is the SURVIVORS, the immortals that remember the wicked with "everlasting shame and contempt".
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

So the righteous are going to feel shame for all eternity for what other people (the wicked) did? Does that sum up your POV on Daniel 12:2?

Compare:

Rev.21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[ClementofA]

Logical fallacy, ad hominem.

There was no ad hominen:

"marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made"

Definition of AD HOMINEM

Make a few insulting, disparaging comments about something/someone with no, zero, none evidence. Can you prove any of this diatribe?

How would that be done? Prove it to yourself by reading some history.

"Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

 

[Uber Genius]

All you have managed to document is the Hellenization of many Jews.
Jesus harshly contradicted them... and told them "ye do greatly err, not knowing the Scriptures, or the power of God."
The Jewish "scholars" are an unreliable, polluted source.
The Early Church Fathers are no better!! They were just as influenced by pagan philosophy, if not MORE!!
The ONLY reliable source is Scripture!

Your method: make sweeping genralizations and ad hominem attacks to poison the wells to the data you don't like. Step 2 - read meaning into scriptures rather than out of it, so scripture can always support any inference you come up with!

Got it....

 

[Uber Genius]

A

Why would i care if the antichrist sword ruling harlot of Babylon didn't give creedal support to universalism through the dark ages of Inquisitions, Crusades & burning of opposers & their writings?

Do you actually consider that evidence against universalism?

In the more enlightened free times of history universalism has had more advocates.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"I'm reminded of the movie Ben Hur. When Ben Hur encountered Jesus at the cross, he comes away and says "I felt him take the sword out of my hand." "

llwho don't share your view are part of the harlot of babylon, got it.

I think this level of thinking and arguing for a particular inference is beyond remediation. Your poisoning the wells fallacy is joined by vox populi (appeal to the masses).

Rhetorical tricks, eisogesis, and propaganda are ways to manipulate people rather than get to what is the best understanding of a theological concept. Who Would Jesus Manipulate??????

Best of luck on your journey.

 

[Uber Genius]

I love it when fundamentalists speak in tongues.

I learned so many 'smart theologian' words upon first coming here. Words I'd never heard in my prior 30+ years prior, as a Christian. Amazing I ever figured out how to walk as a Spirit led believer in Christ.

No need for a response BTW.

And a box of hats, and a wolf howls, and I'm thinking of a number between 17 and alpha.

No need to reply. Jesus is not the author of confusion.

 

[Uber Genius]

Logical fallacy, ad hominem. Make a few insulting, disparaging comments about something/someone with no, zero, none evidence. Can you prove any of this diatribe?

Tough crowd out here. Clearly lacking in exegetical training as well as logical training. I wish there was a test that posters have to pass that demonstrates they had these base skills so we could get past these incredibly manipulative methods of rhetoric. Thanks for calling them out. I was getting lonely out here.

 

[Uber Genius]

How to argue for one of four inferences about hell:

Four Views on Hell

I currently and not convinced that we have all the data recorded in scripture. I think that God does some things we don't see and that aren't written about. I have met and seen people who came back from an NDE who claimed the went to a lace of torment and were met there by Jesus who gave them a second chance. Now that is not recorded in scripture anywhere. Further it is not part of purgation. It is nowhere in church history. If those experiences are true then we have a different view than the four outlined in the book above. Not sure of my view yet.

 

[Rajni]

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"?

Good point!

aperantos: unfinished, i.e. endless​

Original Word: ἀπέραντος, ον
Short Definition: unaccomplished, unending, endless
Definition: unaccomplished, unending, endless.

 

[Dartman]

You really are not too in touch those elders and Deacons were early church Fathers whom you were denigrating in the post I responded to.

I understand which "church Fathers" you were quoting, and so did Paul. Paul called the Elders of the church ;
Acts 20:16-17 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost. 17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

And gave them this warning;

Acts 20:28-31 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul gave a very similar warning to the church at Thessalonica;

2 Thess 2:1-10 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

From Paul's warning we learn;
There would be a "falling away" from the church
It would act "as God" sitting in the "temple of God" showing it'self to BE God.
It was "already" at work.
It would last until Christ's coming.
It would NOT represent the truth.

Paul ALSO gave instructions how to avoid being deceived;
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Paul instructed the Corinthians to "bear" well those teaching another gospel, another spirit .... OR... another JESUS! The key is to return to what was "PREACHED". If we cannot show the "Jesus" we accept being "PREACHED" to ANY audience in the Scriptures ... we have accepted "another Jesus".

 

[Dartman]

So the righteous are going to feel shame for all eternity for what other people (the wicked) did? Does that sum up your POV on Daniel 12:2?

Compare:

Rev.21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

You finally are getting it.
Yes, the righteous, and Jehovah/YHVH God Himself, will view those condemned in the Judgement with "everlasting shame and contempt"... and Yes, God will: "wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

The key to achieving God's spirit, which is God's mind, is harmonizing these truths.
I know it isn't that you cannot ...... it's merely that you don't want to.
It's simple.
Viewing the behavior of the wicked with "everlasting shame and contempt" is NOT listed in Rev 21:4.

The other side of the coin is, "everlasting shame and contempt" is COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE with the theory that eventually EVERYONE is going to be saved!

 

[Dartman]

Your method: make sweeping genralizations and ad hominem attacks to poison the wells to the data you don't like. Step 2 - read meaning into scriptures rather than out of it, so scripture can always support any inference you come up with!

Got it....

Excellent self analysis.

Now, I am happy to compare Scriptures with you.

 

[Rajni]

"Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Thank you for sharing this link. Verrrry interesting!!

 

[ClementofA]

You finally are getting it.
Yes, the righteous, and Jehovah/YHVH God Himself, will view those condemned in the Judgement with "everlasting shame and contempt"... and Yes, God will: "wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

The key to achieving God's spirit, which is God's mind, is harmonizing these truths.
I know it isn't that you cannot ...... it's merely that you don't want to.
It's simple.
Viewing the behavior of the wicked with "everlasting shame and contempt" is NOT listed in Rev 21:4.

Thanks & praise be to Love Omnipotent.

I assume, then, you can't explain it. Or you would have already.

Amen.

I wonder what twist you have on Revelation 20:10? Do you see annihilation there too?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Dartman]

Thanks & praise be to Love Omnipotent.

I assume, then, you can't explain it. Or you would have already.

Read it again;
It's simple.
Viewing the behavior of the wicked with "everlasting shame and contempt" is NOT listed in Rev 21:4.

I didn't think it would be necessary to explain even further, but apparently it is.

Since; Viewing the behavior of the wicked with "everlasting shame and contempt" is NOT listed in Rev 21:4..... the two concepts are NOT contradictory.

NOW do you understand?

I wonder what twist you have on Revelation 20:10? Do you see annihilation there too?

Of course.
Just like the previous time this came up in this thread.
Day and night ends with 2nd H&E age.
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages. YLT

Rev 21:25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there; YLT

 

[ClementofA]

The other side of the coin is, "everlasting shame and contempt" is COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE with the theory that eventually EVERYONE is going to be saved!

Post 1336 of this thread already showed how its harmonious with biblical universalism.

Furthermore, as i've said before:

Considering that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, your reputable biased men should not have rendered the word by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions i posted gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in the specific context. What your biased scholars have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Read it again;
It's simple.
Viewing the behavior of the wicked with "everlasting shame and contempt" is NOT listed in Rev 21:4.

I didn't think it would be necessary to explain even further, but apparently it is.

Since; Viewing the behavior of the wicked with "everlasting shame and contempt" is NOT listed in Rev 21:4..... the two concepts are NOT contradictory.

NOW do you understand?

How do you resolve this apparent contradiction you've raised?