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So......if you believe that, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I will leave you to it.
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Everything that Jesus taught and instructed was to the obedient believers, who followed his words to the jot and tittle.
So......if you believe that, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I will leave you to it.So what is the will of the Father in this regard. Are you abiding by it through his Son Christ Jesus?
So......if you believe that, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I will leave you to it.
Spiritists belief lines up perfectly with Universalists who do not believe in eternal damnation, and believe that everyone, the good and the bad will be salted through the fires of the afterlife, where some will be cleansed more slowly than others. That by force of devine law which Universalists and Spiritists parrot repeatedly, where God is Love, therefore all will succumb to God's Love and eventually be saved. Isn't this a wishy washy anti-gospel, that is outside of the justifying cross of Christ and outside of the sanctifying works of the Holy Spirit.
Hello there.....salvation according to Universalists and Spiritists are a perfect match made in the afterlife of the purging salting fires.
Universalism = Spiritism
No. The text doesn't mention abolishing reigning. The end of Jesus being the ultimate authority on the earthThe "end" comes "when" (v.24) reigning is abolished:
No, all the prophets mentioned in verse 24 have foretold the coming, and ministry of Jesus, the "prophet like unto" Moses."Peter repeats this soon after, announcing the eventual restoration, in Acts 3:24: “all theDartman said:The restoration spoken by God's holy prophets is; the restoration of edenic conditions on earth, and that earth being the eternal home of the righteous ONLY .... made possible by destroying the wicked, and all their works, by fire. There are more than 75 verses describing this "restoration" in the Scriptures.
Your theory denies ALL of those words ".. spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
prophets […] foretold these days,” that is, those of the universal apokatastasis.
Close. You've left out the very critical promise made to Abraham of inheritance of the EARTH, specifically to Abraham, "all the land which thou seest".ClementofA said:In the immediate continuation of Peter’s speech, the fulfilment of this prophecy is linked to the accomplishment of the promise made to Abraham, the benediction of all families of the earth in his progeny.
All "families of the peoples" WILL adore God .... but ONLY the "few" within all "families" that loved and obeyed Him. The "many" that hate Him, will be destroyed;ClementofA said:Now, this will be accomplished in the eschatological times as well, and will be an action of God. The same event is referred to in Ps 21:28–30, where it is prophesied that “all the families of the peoples” will adore God and “all the boundaries of the earth will (re)turn [ἐπιστραφήσονται] to the Lord.”
I can't quite say He's not the source of evil, given the reasons I've previously stated. However, I should probably make it more clear that also don't think this means that He's running around wreaking havoc just for kicks and giggles either, like Dennis the Menace on steroids.Besides that, there are things considered "evil" which are subjectively determined as such depending on denomination, religion, culture, etc., so that muddies the waters enough to give the topic a thread of its own elsewhere.
Yes, I think you may have explained this already, but I'm still of the mind that if Adam was indeed perfect, if he was made righteous before God, and in a perfect state, he would not have rebelled.
However, I suppose it's quite possible that even in his apparent rebellion, he was still perfect, and what has been historically considered his "messing up" really wasn't a mess-up at all, but just another perfect, righteous act performed by a perfect, righteous being.
But again I ask: If a perfect Adam could ruin a perfect setting with just a flick of his free will, then who's to say this won't happen again in heaven one day (assuming we have free will in heaven)? Maybe that's another heavier topic deserving of its own thread too. It's not a question that has to be answered here unless someone wants to take a stab at it. It's just food for thought.
I love Romans 5, because it elaborates on what 1 Corinthians 15:22 puts forth, that the fall and salvation from the fall both follow the same pattern, just in different directions:
Just as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. It's the same all, otherwise the sentence wouldn't make sense. It would be like saying something like "Just as I drove a VW to work as a teen, so also does my daughter eat grapes on Tuesdays."
And Romans 5:15 echoes 1 Corinthians 15:22:
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Same "the many". There's a parallel being drawn between the effects on mankind of Adam's single transgression and Christ's single sacrifice. Just as... so also.
Then there's another parallel illustrated in Romans 5:17:
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.Then, as if Paul couldn't make this clear enough (maybe while under the influence of Divine Inspiration he foresaw the endless debates over this that would take place in the future
), we have Romans 5:18:
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.One act of transgression brought condemnation upon all.
One act of righteousness brought justification upon all.
Same all.
Romans 5:19:
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
One act of disobedience by one individual affected everyone
One act of obedience by one individual affected everyone.
Now, I can see it already: Some will jump in and argue that Romans 5:19 is saying that "the many and not all" are saved, but in order for that to work one would then have to conclude that "the many and not all" were made sinners by Adam's disobedience. It's the same "the many", either way, or else it wouldn't make sense grammatically.
Romans 5:20-21:
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
A clear (to me, anyway) demonstration that God sees your sin and raises you an abundance of grace. Every. Single. Time.
God wins (a statement that potentially inspires the Godwin-posts, ironically enough!).
Well, there are a couple ways to look at this.
There was the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 which could account for a lot of that impending-doom-speak people interpret as referring to post-mortem punishment for not believing in Christ.
However, as we've already seen, we are made alive in Christ the same way we were made dead in Adam. So if it was the same way, we didn't have to believe in Adam first before we were made dead in him. The whole being-made-dead-and-alive-again transaction was made waaaaay over our heads, and apparently our vote in the matter has not been required.
What believing does help do is give us a clearer outline of what went down, and what it means for us ultimately. That's why (I believe) that, as 1 Timothy 4:10 states, while God is, indeed, the Savior of all, He's especially the savior of those who believe, because knowing now that one's future is so bright they need to wear shades makes the remainder of life here on earth a heck of a lot more bearable than if one is wandering around thinking there's a good chance it's going to be all doom and gloom for eternity. Especially if one's particular denomination / religion comes with a handy list of "unforgivable" or "mortal" sins for one to constantly fret over possibly having committed.
The judgment in this verse can be at least a couple of things: The fall in AD 70, or the judgment that Christ took upon himself on the cross. In any case, it would be hasty for me to conclude that "the judgment" can only mean "torture for all eternity". Such a conclusion waters down Christ's sacrifice far too much for my tastes.
Well see that's just it: Paul didn't find salvation, it found him. That's as free-gift as it gets, imo.
Those verses have already been shared.
As I've said before, sin, rebellion, and unbelief are symptoms of being lost. "The lost" is who Christ came to save. To punish the lost for sinning is like punishing a tuberculosis patient for coughing. Especially if salvation from such things is supposedly a gift that God bestows on someone—if someone continues in those things, it's because God refrained from bestowing that transforming gift on them, in which case He's responsible for their condition, either way.
It's helpful to note that a person can be an inhabitant of a kingdom without actually inheriting it.
Far from it. Not sure where you're seeing that in my posts.
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This is precisely the reverse process of Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
No, the Scripture informs us that the Jews cannot be trusted, but that the Scriptures must inform us how to interpret Scripture;Der Alter said:No the Jews inform us how the Hebrew scriptures should be translated ...
Sorry, your feeble attempt to distort the text isn't persuasive.Der Alter said:The Lazarus account was not in direct response to the Pharisees. Luke 16:15-18 was the direct response to the Pharisees.
You know better than this bluster. I have already provided Scripture that states Jesus spoke to them in parables, and proved beyond doubt that both parables in the chapter begin with exactly the same phrase. Again, your bluster isn't persuasive... it's desperate.Der Alter said:We have nothing but your opinion that the Lazarus account is a parable.
That's not how parables work, and everyone knows it. The parable is NOT discussing literal death, as proven by ALL other Scriptures dealing with death!! The parable, and the context, is discussing the fate of the Pharisees, and any others in Israel that reject the "one raised from the dead"!Der Alter said:The internal evidence shows that it is not a parable. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, Jesus would be a liar.
1) Jehovah commanded His servant Jesus to "go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel";Who are the righteous? Matthew 25:37
Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
Seems like they didn't even know they were righteous or doing things for Christ. They were humble.
Romans 9:30
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
Romans 10:20
Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
Who are the wicked? Matthew 25:44
Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
Seems like they were pursing righteousness, but did not obtain it. They were not humble.
Romans 9:31
but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.
Romans 10:21
But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
When Jesus preached death to the wicked, it was typically about disobedient Israel.
No. The text doesn't mention abolishing reigning. The end of Jesus being the ultimate authority on the earth
comes when Jesus hands over the kingdom to his God;
1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
All "families of the peoples" WILL adore God .... but ONLY the "few" within all "families" that loved and obeyed Him. The "many" that hate Him, will be destroyed;
Matt 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Yes, I think we are, as you are repeating things to which I've already responded, and I would be repeating myself as well with any further responses to those things. No worries, we can simply agree to disagree. Life goes on.Now we're going in circles, so I'll try and summarize the problems by highlighting the critical errors you hold to:
Yes, I think we are, as you are repeating things to which I've already responded, and I would be repeating myself as well with any further responses to those things. No worries, we can simply agree to disagree. Life goes on.
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And yet he still heals the Canaanite woman' daughter for her faith.1) Jehovah commanded His servant Jesus to "go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel";
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
2) All of the prophets, Jesus and the apostles ALSO explain the destruction of ALL wicked.
No, "the dominion, authority and power" being discussed are ENEMIES. Notice, death is the LAST enemy that is destroyed, the other enemies include any opposing dominion, authority and power.Reigning is abolished when "all dominion, authority and power" are destroyed. And Christ's reign is "until" He hands over the kingdom, so it ends as well.
Agreed. I hope we ALSO agree, the remaining judgment Jesus preached, regarding EVERY race, nation, family of the earth ... is still 100% valid.And yet he still heals the Canaanite woman' daughter for her faith.
I agree with you. Jesus did come for the lost sheep of Israel. There was a remnant of Israel chosen by grace, while the rest of Israel was hardened, and eventually destroyed in the Jewish Roman war.
Romans 9:27-29
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us children,
we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor′rah.
Romans 11:1-6
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli′jah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba′al.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Again, I agree with you. God destroyed gentile nations whom he judged: Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, Babylon, etc..... God also Judged Israel multiple times throughout the old and new testament periods. However, the main judgment that Jesus preaches is for Israel.
Parables are always meant to be applied to all as a learning lesson and these lessons would apply to the 1st century audience, as well as Christains of today.
Jesus is teaching a gospel that has a few who truly come to the fullness of Christ and this would be evident when Jesus said....
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:10)
Not according to Scripture.My 7:14 says few were finding life, present tense, i.e. at that time. It doesn't speak of final destiny. This tells Israel's final destiny:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
Paul, apostle to the nations, speaks of the destiny of all people:
1Cor15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Tim.2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Yes, even Judas, Pharoah, Sodom & Hitler.
The "many and few" principle is not exclusive to Israel, it is perhaps even MORE applicable to the other "families of the earth".I think they were meant to confuse the majority of the 1st century audience and fulfill prophecy.
Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says:
‘You shall indeed hear but never understand,
and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should perceive with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.’
You are correct, few will enter the kingdom. But who is Christ talking about here? Well first in Matthew 8:10, he says he has not seen faith like the centurion's (gentile) in all of the Israel. And he is telling this to those following him (Jews). He then says many will come from the east and west to sit with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. Who are the many? Most likely gentiles. while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. who are the sons of the kingdom? The chosen subjects of the kingdom of God were the Jews. As Christ states is Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you (Israel) and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.", it is Israel who will be judged. Few of Israel will be saved, while the rest will be hardened. Romans 11:1-6.
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