Universalism...why not?

surrender1 said:

It's just to put millions of Jews (mothers, fathers, kids 15 years old and and up or whatever) in hell after undergoing starvation and gassing to death in concentration camps? This is just one example.

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You admit, I take it, that God could have prevented these terrible things on Earth--but did not. That's the same God you reasoned could not or would not condemn anyone to suffering in hell because his nature is too loving for such a thing. It looks like that reasoning is inconsistent.

surrender1 said:

If you believe God desires to save all and can save all, why does he not save all?

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Probably for the same reason He didn't provide a path of redemption for Satan and the fallen one's. Just because He can do something doesn't mean He will do something. What He did tell us is that those who do not have the Son are condemned already. He'll keep His word. They are condemned.

The Israelites did a lot of things against His will, such as following after other gods and remaining in disobedience.

Jesus said concerning Jerusalem that He often desired to gather them to Himself as a hen gathers her chicks, but He didn't do it because they were not willing. There's an actual example for you of what God will do in cases where even though He desires another path, He refrained from doing so based on the willingness of the subject.

Just because God saves, and wants to save, doesn't mean he will do so if the subject is not willing. These people will end up in the Lake of Fire at some point.

surrender1 said:

Lots of good points here. I was wondering. You said that an eternal torture chamber for those who fail does not fit with the character of God, which I agree with. But do you think destruction or annihilation for those who fail does fit with the character of God? As a parent, I still wound't annihilate my child. My patience and love towards him wouldn't run out. If he resisted my love for eternity, I'd pursue him for eternity. Love never gives up. Right?

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The key word here is "child". We are not born children of God. Not one of God's children will suffer eternal torment. However, those who do not accept Jesus' atonement and bear the seal of God (the Holy Spirit) cannot call God "Father". Those in eternal torment have put themselves there by their free will choice to reject Christ and harden their hearts to the Holy Spirit.

God never gives up on His children.

12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
John 1:12-13

surrender1 said:

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

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The answer to your question is after this life there is judgement. God gives people all the opportunity they need in this life to accept him and it is on us to decide what to do.

If God was going to save all people, even those who never professed faith in Christ, then Jesus would not have needed to die. God could have just pardoned humanity.

surrender1 said:

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

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If you had proof that a Christian's life becomes a 100% better after they are saved, would you seek to become a Christian yourself?

To believe in Universalism is to reject the true word of God, so as Christians we cannot accept this belief and here is why: (I think Gotquestions.org are on point with this answer)...

Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved. There are many people today who hold to universal salvation and believe that all people eventually end up in heaven. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment in hell that causes some to reject the teaching of Scripture on this issue. For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God—and the neglect of the righteousness and justice of God—that leads them to believe God will have mercy on every living soul. But the Scriptures do teach that some people will spend eternity in hell.

First of all, the Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

How does one avoid this unquenchable fire? Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

surrender1 said:

No, he could not have prevented those things. Not unless he wanted to trash the entire purpose of creation.

Actually, wrong.

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Something is wrong here. You say that it would be against his nature or his eternal plan to save people from horrors in this life but, also, that he simply must do that in the afterlife...in order to be true to himself.

Huh?

surrender1 said:

People don't follow Christ for rewards. They do it because his words of peacemaking and mercy and forgiveness are truth and life...his words resonate as truth with their own hearts and enlivens them.

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I'm glad to hear that, I wasn't sure if you were a Christian but at least you are on the right track.

surrender1 said:

Lots of good points here. I was wondering. You said that an eternal torture chamber for those who fail does not fit with the character of God, which I agree with. But do you think destruction or annihilation for those who fail does fit with the character of God? As a parent, I still wound't annihilate my child. My patience and love towards him wouldn't run out. If he resisted my love for eternity, I'd pursue him for eternity. Love never gives up. Right?

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Thats the 6 million dollar question. It would be rather presumptuous of me to tell you God would and will annihilate anyone. There are passages that sure look that way.
Now on to His character...no, annihilation would not fit His character from my perspective.

I believe that we are created in Gods image and part of that is to be liked and loved because people want to like and love us, not because they have been forced to. He gave us free will and dominion over the earth and it is how we use that free will that determines our salvation.

I think the unforgivable sin is to reject God when you have an understanding of who/what you are rejecting. I always remember once as a kid my dad saying he hated and despised God. He had chosen to reject God and turn against Him. He was a horrible violent and vindictive man who died before I was saved but I have been able to forgive. I have had to accept that I believe he had rejected God and would therefore be judged on who he was and I have no doubt he is in hell as he chose in his lifetime to reject God.

Shempster said:

Thats the 6 million dollar question. It would be rather presumptuous of me to tell you God would and will annihilate anyone. There are passages that sure look that way.
Now on to His character...no, annihilation would not fit His character from my perspective.

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This is why we have the Bible--in order to know God's will so that we don't simply guess at it.

surrender1 said:

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

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With God, the possibilities are...endless...

surrender1 said:

In OT days, God was said to deal with nations through national judgment and this is what that verse is about. It's not about individual salvation in eternal life. I realize that God doesn't get his way all the time. That's because we get to make choices in our lives, good and bad. But given enough opportunity and time, God can heal even the worst of sinners. So, if God desires all to be saved and Paul writes that Jesus' one act of obedience leads to justification and life for all, then I believe God will continue to work on souls after this life. And that notion aligns with what a good parent does. He never gives up. Love never fails.

The lake of fire or second death was a concept used for the nation of Israel in warning of the coming national judgment in AD 70.

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Ok. You're obviously not in a position to have a discussion about it. You've already made up your mind, no matter how what you want to ignore along the way. I hope you aren't embracing this delusion because someone close to you died while lost. It won't help you or them.

The Brown Brink said:

With God, the possibilities are...endless...

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With God, the possibilities have already been determined in eternity.