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Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

GillDouglas

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Jesus also said "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you enter into life maimed or crippled, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. Gouge out your eye if it causes you to sin, because it is better to enter into life as a one-eyed, holy believer than to have two eyes, unholy, and to be thrown into the fire of hell." (Matthew 18:7-8)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'd tend to agree with some of what you've said here, but this doesn't mean I support Universalism since it isn't a coherent concept.

2PhiloVoid
 
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The Times

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Comments that are true pose a threat to apostate movements that deconstruct Christianity and to reconstruct it outside of the context of the church fathers who based their theology on Universalist salvation for those within the Creeds of Christendom, within the statement of beliefs and within the 7 sacraments.

Today's Unitarian Universalism is wilfully piece by piece doing away with the Creeds of Christendom, the statements of belief and the 7 sacrements.

What I stated certainly struck a nerve, hence the unprovoked response.

No doubt true Christians will be persecuted by those who label them fundamentalist. Since this ploy was used many tines throughout history.

Who are you sir to accuse me and to label me?

I will pray that God judges you on these very words you have falsely spouted against me.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. (Isaiah 5:20)
 
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Rajni

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Jesus said “Do not fear those who can kill the body; fear Him who is able to cast soul and body into hell.” (Matthew 10:28)
It seems to be a progression. Some start off with the Matthew 10:28 mentality, fearing God due to His ability to cast them into hell. But then they, hopefully, graduate to the 1 John 14:8 stage, where their fear, which had to do with that kind of punishment, is cast out by perfect love.

Sure.....He is absolutely able---but DOES He actually do it?
Exactly. He is able to do all sorts of things, but will He? That's for the Pure Speculation file, where it will have to remain until we get to the Other Side.

I'd tend to agree with what you've said here, but this doesn't mean I support Universalism since it isn't a coherent concept.
No worries. I don't support Partialism for the same reason. It is what it is.


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GillDouglas

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The wrath of God is already revealed from heaven against men and their ungodliness and unrighteousness, and so it will remain. Although the Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands and whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son will not see life. For God’s wrath remains on him. The wicked, who know not God, and do not obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ shall be cast into eternal torments and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. (2 Thessalonians 1:8; Colossians 3:6)
 
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The Times

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They neither were culturally born into Orthodoxy, neither lived and breathed the faith from the perspective off the church fathers. They are men infiltrating orthodoxy and promoting a Unitarian Universalist agenda, outside of the Creeds of Christendom, outside of the statements of belief and outside of the 7 sacraments.

How else is a one world religion that promotes the AS ABOVE SO BELOW indoctrination for the deconstruction and reconstruction of Christianity to happen, in order to vring about mystery Babylon rising.
 
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Rajni

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Thanks for sharing!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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...graduate to a 1 John 14:8 stage? Surely you jest.

Exactly. He is able to do all sorts of things, but will He? That's for the Pure Speculation file, where it will have to remain until we get to the Other Side.

No worries. I don't support Partialism for the same reason. It is what it is.-
 
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Hillsage

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Actually I prostrated myself 45 years ago, after 21 years as an ECT indoctrinated Catholic. But then, I prostrated myself again a, few years later, to seek as to 'whether or not' a newly encountered 'Christian Universalism doctrine' could possibly be true. And I sought that answer for another 10 years. You see, I was as bull headed then, as most of you 'We can't turn-em then burn-em' believers are now. And, in all honesty, for many of those 10 years I was just really hoping it was true. It was an attitude which I see totally lacking in most, with your same ilk. So, though you tell me to prostrate and plead for my soul, I'm not. Because, as for me, at the end of those 10 years of knocking/seeking...and judging men by the fruit of their attitudes, I knew in my heart of hearts, that UR was God's truth, and I have never looked back. and again I say
 
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GillDouglas

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Thanks for sharing!
"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
 
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Rajni

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There is no 1 John 14:8....mate.
1 John 4:18; thanks for pointing out the typo -- though the snarkishly scenic route you took to point it out is duly noted.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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1 John 4:18; thanks for pointing out the typo -- though the snarkishly scenic route you took to point it out is duly noted.

Well, I was just wondering if it was the Holy Spirit that provided you with your accuracy in both citation and interpretation of Scripture.
 
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Rajni

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Well, I was just wondering if it was the Holy Spirit that provided you with your accuracy in both citation and interpretation of Scripture.
No need to explain, it's all good.
 
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Rajni

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I guess we can sit back and do the "wait and see" game as to whether or not Universalism is indeed God's choice for a salvation economy. ... I can hardly wait to shake the hands of Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin and Mao. m'boy!
That's if we'll even be able to recognize them at that point.
Should be interesting, in any case.


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The Times

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You remember you labelled me a fundamentalist and an enemy of the Unitarian Universalist Utopia, where is perfect love in this case...mmmmm

God judges the heart and it is the heart that needs to be broken in and made contrite before God, it is written that the fear of God is the knowledge and growth towards perfect love. Your construct of perfect love is in the absence of fear of the Justice that God unleashes and the chastising of his children.

Bible > NIV > Hebrews 12
Hebrews 12
New International Version
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

God Disciplines His Children

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,

and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

6because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,

and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
(Hebrews 12:4-10)

To grow in perfect love, we are chasticed towards holiness and fear of God. This is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. That without fear, one has not travailed through faith and their faith is shallowly grounded in human feelings/emotions and has not penetrated the heart.

Where feelings many, do often change with the weather of time amid tribulations, yet the heart stands the test of time amid great tribulations.

The Orthodox Church fathers taught that pain and suffering was the inspiration of faith, through much trials and tribulations, until we are perfected in faith, through God's perfect love.

Saying I love or feeling or emotionally being in a state of love is a fleshy venture that will end in disappointment, because love is superficially embraced without fear of reprimand or of being chasticed.
 
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The Times

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You mean, that you have no fear of God now as compared to your earlier years and you have reached a point in your faith that you are comfortable with. Is that right?
 
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ClementofA

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How many eyes have you gouged out? It seems you're still able to post? Do you know any Christians who've cut off their limbs to stop sinning? Would that actually help a person to stop sinning & save them from "hell"? Is "hell" avoided by works?

"'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during. 'And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire. (Mt.18:8-9 YLT)

There's no eternal or hell in YLT translation. And many others.

"That aiónios is often translated as “eternal” or “everlasting” in mainstream English bibles, also doesn’t settle the matter. Terms for Eternity: Aiônios and Aïdios in Classical and Christian Texts is the most comprehensive academic analysis of these particular words that I know of 1. As it is far more in depth than any lexicon entry, it seems to be the logical starting point 2.

"[aiónios] may sometimes mean eternal but also bears many other meanings … [such as] pertaining to the next aion [aeon/eon]

"Ramelli & Konstan, Terms for Eternity, vii

"This is supported by other respected scholars:

"[aiónios means] belonging to the age to come

"J.I. Packer, The Problem of Eternal Punishment, Crux XXVI.3, September 1990, 23

"[aiónios means] of the Age to Come

"N.T. Wright, The New Interpreter’s Bible"

Is Aionios Eternal?―Engaging Burk’s View of Hell―Part 4
 
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The Times

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Unfortunately there are errors in every denomination, none are perfect.

Within Univeralist ideology, even Satan is forgiven. This flies in the face of God's declarations to what he will do with Satan (Isaiah 14)

Also Jesus disciple Judas Iscariot was not saved and Jesus said all my sheep I can save accept one. So it is possible that God doesn't always get what he wants for humanity, because many will choose to be separated from him, especially in the last days when all hell breaks loose and the so called Universalist faith movement start cursing the body of Christ eho have always warned of Justice coming and eventually it will end up in cursing God.

These things have happened in the past, but the finale will be on a much grand scale, the world is separating from God, not uniting and the line in the sand has been drawn.

It is like those who say....
‘The Lord will do nothing, either good or bad.’

Bible > NIV > Zephaniah 1
Zephaniah 1
New International Version
1The word of the Lord that came to Zephaniah son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, during the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah:

Judgment on the Whole Earth in the Day of the Lord

2“I will sweep away everything

from the face of the earth,”

“When I destroy all mankind

on the face of the earth,”

declares the Lord.

3“I will sweep away both man and beast;

I will sweep away the birds in the sky

and the fish in the sea—

and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”

“When I destroy all mankind

on the face of the earth,”

declares the Lord,

4“I will stretch out my hand against Judah

and against all who live in Jerusalem.

I will destroy every remnant of Baal worship in this place,

the very names of the idolatrous priests—

5those who bow down on the roofs

to worship the starry host,

those who bow down and swear by the Lord

and who also swear by Molek,b

6those who turn back from following the Lord

and neither seek the Lord nor inquire of him.”

7Be silent before the Sovereign Lord,

for the day of the Lord is near.

The Lord has prepared a sacrifice;

he has consecrated those he has invited.

8“On the day of the Lord’s sacrifice

I will punish the officials

and the king’s sons

and all those clad

in foreign clothes.

9On that day I will punish

all who avoid stepping on the threshold,c

who fill the temple of their gods

with violence and deceit.

10“On that day,”

declares the Lord,

“a cry will go up from the Fish Gate,

wailing from the New Quarter,

and a loud crash from the hills.

11Wail, you who live in the market district;

all your merchants will be wiped out,

all who trade with silver will be destroyed.

12At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps

and punish those who are complacent,

who are like wine left on its dregs,

who think, ‘The Lord will do nothing,

either good or bad.’

13Their wealth will be plundered,

their houses demolished.

Though they build houses,

they will not live in them;

though they plant vineyards,

they will not drink the wine.”

14The great day of the Lord is near—

near and coming quickly.

The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;

the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.

15That day will be a day of wrath—

a day of distress and anguish,

a day of trouble and ruin,

a day of darkness and gloom,

a day of clouds and blackness—

16a day of trumpet and battle cry

against the fortified cities

and against the corner towers.

17“I will bring such distress on all people

that they will grope about like those who are blind,

because they have sinned against the Lord.

Their blood will be poured out like dust

and their entrails like dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold

will be able to save them

on the day of the Lord’s wrath.”

In the fire of his jealousy

the whole earth will be consumed,

for he will make a sudden end

of all who live on the earth.
(Zephaniah 1:1-18)
 
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ClementofA

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Universalism says all men will be saved. It says nothing about satan's salvation or even if he/it exists as a being.

As for Judas, Jesus never said he could not "save" him, let alone never save him.

Universal reconciliation - Wikipedia
 
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