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Universalism VS. Scripture

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Hi Charlie V,

Because of compassion.
Yes but isn’t the whole idea of Christ dying for us as an atonement for sin one of compassion as well? I would say one could not demonstarte such love without compassion.
If there is an eternal hell, there can be no heaven for me, because if I go to heaven I will spend eternity crying with compassion and raging with frustration and horror for the other people suffering in hell.
Which people suffering in hell? I thought you didn’t believe in hell. I think the problem is that you are taking what is described and then reasoning what it should be. I dont think any of us can do that, we can only believe what Jesus tells us or not.

Ah but once again you are describing how you feel about who you think God is and what you think God’s character is. Locking up murderers is not hateful but justice and punishment for the crime. But the murderer can be loved and come to repentacne and acceptance. I believe you have missed most of the gospel and decided man can judge God. In this salvation Jesus has also become for us righteousness and justice. There is no greater love than this. God has shown how much He loves us through Jesus.



Why would universal salvation drive you away from Christianity?
It wouldn’t as I don’t believe such a view is Christian.

peace
 
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Charlie V

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ahab said:
Hi Charlie V,

Yes but isn’t the whole idea of Christ dying for us as an atonement for sin one of compassion as well? I would say one could not demonstarte such love without compassion.

Yes, the whole idea of Christ dying for all of us as an atonement for all our sin is one of compassion.


ahab said:
Which people suffering in hell? I thought you didn’t believe in hell.

I don't, now. The Holy Spirit guided me to His Truth of universal salvation.

I used to believe in eternal hell, and cried and raged about it. Wasn't your question about how I nearly rejected Christianity? I'm telling you my past beliefs, which created horrific rage and sorrow, until the Holy Spirit revealed to me the truth, years before I knew that there were others who believed what the Holy Spirit already revealed to me.

ahab said:
I think the problem is that you are taking what is described and then reasoning what it should be. I dont think any of us can do that, we can only believe what Jesus tells us or not.

Exactly why I believe in universal salvation.

I prayed to God to reveal to me the truth. Jesus answered me. Should I not believe, if the Holy Spirit reveals to me that God's plan is one of universal salvation, that He has revealed to me the truth?

ahab said:
Ah but once again you are describing how you feel about who you think God is and what you think God’s character is.

No, I am describing what I know that God is -- all-loving and all-powerful, able to end all suffering, and reconcile all mankind to His Love.

ahab said:
Locking up murderers is not hateful but justice and punishment for the crime.

Bad analogy. Locking up murderers isn't the same as tormenting them forever and ever. God's "punishment," better translated "chastising," is not retributive, it is purifying and rehabilitative. God's anger lasts but a moment, but His love and mercy is enduring.

ahab said:
But the murderer can be loved and come to repentacne and acceptance.

Of course! This is universal salvation. The false doctrine of hell claims that, at a certain point, he can no longer be loved, no longer come to repentance, no longer come to acceptance.

ahab said:
I believe you have missed most of the gospel and decided man can judge God.

That's what the naysayers of universal salvation are doing -- judging God, saying, no, He cannot save all mankind. Like the laborors of the vineyard in Matthew 20, they would deny those who come late, begrudging God His love and power of saving all mankind.

ahab said:
In this salvation Jesus has also become for us righteousness and justice. There is no greater love than this. God has shown how much He loves us through Jesus.

Exactly what the universalist believes.



ahab said:
It wouldn’t as I don’t believe such a view is Christian.

peace

And I don't believe such a view as eternal hell is Christian. In fact, I know that it is not. It is a false, man-made doctrine that came centuries after the writing of the gospels, having made its way from pagan religions into the corruptions of Christianity. If there is an eternal hell, evil wins. This is not the message of Christ's salvation of mankind. He is the savior of the world, the ransom for all to be testified in due time.

Announcing His coming, the angel said that Jesus' arrival will be "good news of great joy for all people." If there is a single person who will suffer for eternity in hell, His coming wasn't good news of great joy for that person, and the angel was wrong. I do not believe the angel was wrong.

Peace to you also.

Charlie
 
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loriersea

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Why would the belief in eternal hell drive you away from Christianity?


It would drive me away, too. A God who was going to torture people for all eternity because they didn't believe the right theological precepts would be worthy of nothing but my contempt and rebellion. I'd rather spend eternity in hell than have to be in the presence of that God. I'm guessing I'm probably not allowed to say this, but I see worshipping a God like that as no different from worshipping Hitler because, even though he was murdering so many Jews and gays and gypsies, at least wasn't murdering white Christians, so I may as well fall down on my knees and be grateful for that and turn a blind eye to the destruction of others. That would be immoral, and I believe that worshipping a God who would torture the vast majority of humanity for all eternity because they are not Christian is similarly immoral. If eternal damnation were a true doctrine, I'd believe that Christianity was an immoral religion, and I'd have to reject it. Even if it were true, I'd have no choice but to rebel against a God who would do that. Luckily, I don't have to, since eternal damnation is a very human doctrine, not the truth about God.
 
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Hi Charlie V,



Sorry my friend I am still not with you. You rejected Christianity with its belief of eternal death and eternal life because you didn’t like eternal death and then came back to Christianity without eternal death. What attracted you to Christianity in the first place if it wasn’t Jesus? As to the Holy Spirit I would say the Holy Spirit reminds us of all Jesus said and did and Jesus said that not all will be saved such as John 3:16, Matt. 7:13-14, Matt. 22:14, Luke 13:22-27, Matt 26, Rom. 9:27 etc. I think all other passages can more easily be seen to be that all may be saved. It seems to came to reject something you believed because you felt so badly about it. So we need to be sure that it is the Holy Spirit that we are ‘hearing’ rather than deceiving spirits.
Bad analogy. Locking up murderers isn't the same as tormenting them forever and ever. God's "punishment," better translated "chastising," is not retributive, it is purifying and rehabilitative.
No it isn’t the same, but I referred to justice and punishment for murderers not eternal torment. Nor do I think God’s punishment can actually be translated ‘chastising’ I think God disciplines those He treats as sons. However I would point out that if Jesus has saved all to eternal life then eternal death must have been an alternative at one point, which I believe challenges your understanding that God is not all-loving and hates people even if it were as temporary reality as you said..... or God is not all-powerful (he is completely helpless and unable to save some people, weak in that respect.)you said makes God a hater of people.

Of course! This is universal salvation.
No that isn’t universal salvation, universal salvation is that he will come or has come to repentance and acceptance, not as I said can come. Otherwise we could wilffuly and gladly go on sinning because we will all be saved anyway.
The false doctrine of hell claims that, at a certain point, he can no longer be loved, no longer come to repentance, no longer come to acceptance.
Ah but he can no longer ‘not be loved’ as the love of God for him has already been established.on the cross by Jesus. God so loved the world means He has already shown us how much He loves us, No we are not saying God cannot save all mankind we are saying He can. I don’t think Matthew 20 is referring to universal salvation so much as salvation for all who come to the ‘vineyard’ no matter when. If you read the next chapter Matt 21 you will see what the owner of the vineyard does "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” I would say the same about universalism, but I thought Universalism just believed all would be saved rather than dismissing the idea of hell. I accept and don’t doubt that you don’t believe eternal death is a Christian viewpoint and yet it is clearly no less scriptural and no less the truth and the word of God than salvation itself for if Jesus didn’t warn us about tormant in hell He didn’t tell us about heaven and Abraham and anything else. Read Luke 16. "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
I dont believe the difference of opinion over whether all are saved or some are saved is the focus of the gospel which is that there is salvation and eternal life in Christ Jesus all the same.which happily is what we both seem to believe

peace .
 
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loriersea

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Otherwise we could wilffuly and gladly go on sinning because we will all be saved anyway.


People do not reject Christianity because they want to keep sinning. There is absolutely no evidence of that. People reject Christianity because they do not believe it is true. I mean, do you honestly believe that Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists and Jews (all of whom belong to religions that have stricter codes of moral conduct that Christianity does) reject Christianity because they just love to sin so much? Obviously not. They reject it, as do others who reject Christianity, because they do not believe it is true, for any number of reasons.

And, how many Christians accept Jesus as "fire insurance" and then spend the rest of their lives being greedy and selfish, lying, cheating, and acting in innumerable other sinful ways?

Do you see any evidence that universalists are more sinful than those who believe in eternal damnation?

We reject sin because, when we come to understand how loving and gracious God is, we do not want to do anything that would impede our relationship with him in this life. We reject sin because, when we acknowledge the amazing love that God has for all people, our own sinfulness becomes painfully obvious to us and we wish to instead share some of God's love in this world. We do not reject sin because we are afraid of going to hell if we don't.
 
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Hi Loriersea,



It would drive me away, too. A God who was going to torture people for all eternity because they didn't believe the right theological precepts would be worthy of nothing but my contempt and rebellion.
Alas such a view is also a theological precept. The problem is it doesn’t matter whether we are in contempt or rebellion if God is going to do it God might do it regardless of and despite our contempt and rebellion. And I think that is crucial because the OT and NT scriptures reveal to me that such contempt and rebellion against what God has done through Jesus is what leads to eternal death.



I think you are quite entitled to say that if you feel that way, but I think the gospel is that God so loved people that He sent His only Son as a Jew so that whoever believed in Him would not perish but receive eternal life despite what Hitler would do to anyone. I think the other point I would make is that I don’t see anywhere exactly that people who have not heard the truth of Christ Jesus are going to hell. I think you will find the issue of hell and eternal death is more for those who know about Christ and reject Him than those who don’t know about Him.

peace
 
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Charlie V

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ahab said:
Hi Charlie V,

Sorry my friend I am still not with you. You rejected Christianity

I did not "reject Christianity," and I take great issue with this statement. Please do not insult me in this manner.

ahab said:
with its belief of eternal death and eternal life because you didn’t like eternal death

This is not the true message of Christianity.

ahab said:
and then came back to Christianity without eternal death.

The Holy Spirit guided me to the Truth.

ahab said:
What attracted you to Christianity in the first place if it wasn’t Jesus?

Like most Christians, I was brought to church and Sunday School as a child. My first knowledge of Christianity goes back to my earliest memories.

ahab said:
As to the Holy Spirit I would say the Holy Spirit reminds us of all Jesus said and did

Yes.

ahab said:
and Jesus said that not all will be saved

No, He said quite the contrary, as in John 12:32.

ahab said:
such as John 3:16,

John 3:16 does not contradict His promise of universal salvation. All will believe in Him (Isaiah 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phl 2:10-11) Further, this ignores the rest of the context, John 3:17, which states He came to save the world, not the few.

ahab said:
Matt. 7:13-14,

The parable of the straight gate does not refer to a literal gate, not to the idea of eternity in torments, but to the passage to finding the path to righteousness during our lifetimes, to have the abundant and fulfilled life while here on Earth.

I wrote a brief exegesis on this a few years ago:

Further and more detailed exegesis is also available if you are interested.

ahab said:
Matt. 22:14,

"Many are called but few are chosen" says nothing about hell or eternal damnation. It takes a great stretch to suggest it does, and ignores the context of the passage. It is the conclusion of the parable of the wedding garment.

Here is a portion of an exegesis I wrote many years ago on this topic:





Further and more detailed exegesis is also available if you are interested.

ahab said:
Luke 13:22-27,

I've already discussed the straight gate, but notice in the context, Jesus was warning of Earthly sufferings and death, of "blood mingled by Pilate" v1-3, of a tower felled in Siloam v4-5. Warning of such Earthly sufferings, He told the parable of the fig tree v6-9, and when He healed a woman v10-13, He was warned not to heal on the Sabbath v14. He pointed out their hypocricy v15-16, and His adversaries were ashamed v17. The kingdom of God (which is a state of heart and mind within us, Luke 17:21) was compared to leaven hidden in meal, until all is leavened. He was then asked if many would be saved -- not from hell, but from the tribulations to come, as He had been preaching of warnings of impending doom. He answered with the parable of the straight gate, already explained, and the weeping and gnashing of teeth describing the suffering the Phariees will have at the end of the age in 70 AD as already explained.

ahab said:

I will post an exegesis on this chapter, since you weren't verse-specific, and continue. More exegesis is also available.

Continued..

Charlie
 
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Charlie V

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Jesus told the disciples that in two days the Passover will come, and He will be delivered up and crucified. The chief priests, scribes and elders gathered at the palace of the high priest and planned to capture Jesus by trickery and kill Him. They decided not to take Him during the Passover feast to avoid a riot.

Mat 26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus finished all these words, he said to his disciples,[1]
Mat 26:2 `Ye have known that after two days the passover cometh, and the Son of Man is delivered up to be crucified.'
Mat 26:3 Then were gathered together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, to the court of the chief priest who was called Caiaphas;
Mat 26:4 and they consulted together that they might take Jesus by guile, and kill [him],
Mat 26:5 and they said, `Not in the feast, that there may not be a tumult among the people.'

The feast of the Passover, or the paschal feast, was the celebration of the Jews deliverance from Egypt. It was traditionally recognized by the sacrifice and eating of the paschal lamb. Strong’s Concordance tells us that the Passover was celebrated:

“in memory of the day on which their fathers, preparing to depart from Egypt, were bidden by God to slay and eat a lamb, and to sprinkle their door posts with its blood, that the destroying angel, seeing the blood, might pass over their dwellings; Christ crucified is likened to the slain paschal lamb”

Christ was likened to the slain paschal lamb by the Apostle Paul, who wrote:

1 Corinthians 5:7 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[2]

The account of the woman with the ointment is told in all four canonical gospels, but only John identified the woman as Mary Magdalene. In the house of Simon the leper in Bethany, a woman brought precious ointment[3] to Jesus and poured it on His head as He sat at the table. The disciples scolded her waste, saying she could have sold the ointment and given to the poor. Jesus told them not to bother her, for she has done a good deed for Him. The poor will always be with them, but they will not always have Him, for she put ointment on Him for His burial. Wherever the good news is proclaimed in the world, what she did will be spoken of in her memory.

Mat 26:6 And Jesus having been in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,[4]
Mat 26:7 there came to him a woman having an alabaster box of ointment, very precious, and she poured on his head as he is reclining (at meat).
Mat 26:8 And having seen [it], his disciples were much displeased, saying, `To what purpose [is] this waste?
Mat 26:9 for this ointment could have been sold for much, and given to the poor.'
Mat 26:10 And Jesus having known, said to them, `Why do ye give trouble to the woman? for a good work she wrought for me;
Mat 26:11 for the poor always ye have with you, and me ye have not always;
Mat 26:12 for she having put this ointment on my body -- for my burial she did [it].
Mat 26:13 Verily I say to you, Wherever this good news may be proclaimed in the whole world, what this [one] did shall also be spoken of -- for a memorial of her.'

The Greek apoleia, translated waste in verse 8, is translated in other verses as destruction, perdition, perish and damnation. A few examples:

Matthew 7:13 RSV “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction (apoleia), and those who enter by it are many.

2 Peter 2:3 KJV And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation (apoleia) slumbereth not.

The waste of precious oil illustrates the error in interpreting apoleia as a reference to eternal torment—certainly none would suggest that the oil is tortured forever in hell. This Greek noun refers to waste, loss and spoilage, physical Earthly loss but not eternal torments. The same is true of its verb form apollumi, which is similarly translated in various verses. Both are used in John 17:12 in reference to Judas.

John 17:12 NKJV While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost (apollumi) except the son of perdition (apoleia), that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The “son of perdition”is translated “son of destruction” in YLT. None of the twelve but Judas had been lost as a disciple. They were not wasted—they would continue the good work of His ministry, many of them sacrificing their lives for this cause.

This is not to say that words such as “destruction” and “condemnation” are mistranslations, but that subtle shades of meaning are lost in interpretation. Even in modern English, these words do not imply eternal torment. We can condemn a person to death. We can destroy objects and even our own lives. This may suggest waste in each case, but certainly not eternal torment. The reference to the ointment here highlights the meaning of apoleia as waste —and the absurdity of the suggestion that the word apoleia itself implies eternal torture in an unlimited hell.

Jesus reaction to the woman’s kind act reinforced the importance of being generous in serving others and truly giving our all, as with the repeated theme, Whoever wishes to be great must be a servant. The woman humbled herself and gave her precious ointment freely to anoint Him before His burial. The disciples sharply criticized what they saw as waste, but Jesus praised her loving act and assured that her kindness would be spoken of in her memory wherever in the world the good news is proclaimed.

Judas Iscariot went to the chief priests who gave him thirty pieces of silver or turning over Christ. From then on Judas sought an opportunity to betray Him.

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said,[5]
Mat 26:15 `What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him up to you?' and they weighed out to him thirty silverlings,
Mat 26:16 and from that time he was seeking a convenient season to deliver him up.

Thirty pieces of silver was not a large sum of money. If greed was Judas’ primary motivation, it is strange that he did not bargain for a larger fee. Exodus 21:32 quotes this as the price paid to a slave owner if his slave is injured by an ox.

If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

The thirty pieces of silver will be discussed further in the next chapter.

The disciples prepared for the Passover. As evening came and they sat down to eat, Jesus told the twelve that one of them will betray Him. They all were deeply saddened, and each began to ask, “Is it I?”
Jesus told them that he who dipped the hand in the dish with Him will deliver Him up. “The Son of man will go as it is written, but woe to the man who will deliver Him up! It is better for him if he were never born!”
Judas asked, “Is it I, Rabbi?”
Jesus replied, “You have said it.”

Mat 26:17 And on the first [day] of the unleavened food came the disciples near to Jesus, saying to him, `Where wilt thou [that] we may prepare for thee to eat the passover?'[6]
Mat 26:18 and he said, `Go away to the city, unto such a one, and say to him, The Teacher saith, My time is nigh; near thee I keep the passover, with my disciples;'
Mat 26:19 and the disciples did as Jesus appointed them, and prepared the passover.
Mat 26:20 And evening having come, he was reclining (at meat) with the twelve,[7]
Mat 26:21 and while they are eating, he said, `Verily I say to you, that one of you shall deliver me up.'
Mat 26:22 And being grieved exceedingly, they began to say to him, each of them, `Is it I, Sir?'
Mat 26:23 And he answering said, `He who did dip with me the hand in the dish, he will deliver me up;
Mat 26:24 the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him, but wo to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! good it were for him if that man had not been born.'

Mat 26:25 And Judas -- he who delivered him up -- answering said, `Is it I, Rabbi?' He saith to him, `Thou hast said.'

The fate of Judas has been used as an argument against universal salvation. After all, Jesus said that it would have been better for him if he were never born. At least, so it appears in many translations, including the KJV. In other translations, “him” is ambiguous, or appears to say that it would have been better for Jesus if Judas was never born. In An Analytical Study of Words,Louis Abbott wrote:

Advocates of everlasting punishment quote the KJV, Mark 14:21, "The Son of Man indeed goeth, as it is written of him : but woe to that man by whom the son of Man is betrayed! Good were it for that man if he had never been born." The first question which must be settled is whether Jesus uttered these words as translated in the KJV. As the last clause in this verse is used in opposition to Universal Reconciliation, let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas. The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born." Notice how the following versions translates this clause: The ASV, 1901 margin, "Good were it for him if that man had not been born;" Rotherham's version, "Well for him if that man had not been born;" Murphy's edition of the Douay Version and the New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate, 1898, "It were better for him, if that man had not been born;" (the following three versions are quoted in the original spelling) Wiclif, 1380, "It were good to hym if thilke man hadde not been borun;" Tyndale, 1534, "Good were it for him if that man had never bene borne;" Rheims, 1582, "it vvere good for him, if that man had not been borne." Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas. John Albert Bengel in his New Testament Word Studies, vol. 1, p. 290, says about this clause, "This phrase does not necessarily imply the interminable eternal of perdition." Dr. Bengal was a German Lutheran theologian.[8]

There are other considerations besides the translation issue. Even if we were to accept the King James rendition of this verse, the verse does not necessarily imply that Judas is destined to face eternal suffering in hell. Jesus may easily have been using a figure of speech to illustrate the great, though temporal, anguish Judas would feel, that he would wish he were never born. It may have been similar to these passages.

Job 3:3 "Cursed be the day of my birth, and cursed be the night when I was conceived.

Ecclesiastes 6:3 A man might have a hundred children and live to be very old. But if he finds no satisfaction in life and in the end does not even get a decent burial, I say he would have been better off born dead.

According to the commentator Kenrick:

"'It had been good for him, if he had never been born,' is a proverbial phrase, and not to be understood literally; for it is not consistent with our ideas of the divine goodness to make the existence of any being a curse to him, or to cause him to suffer more, upon the whole, than he enjoys happiness. Rather than do this, God would not have created him at all. But as it is usual to say of men who are to endure some grievous punishment or dreadful calamity, that it would have been better for them never to have been born, Christ, foreseeing what Judas would bring upon himself, by delivering up his Master into the hands of his enemies, applies this language to him."[9]

While they were eating, Jesus took the bread, blessed and broke it, giving it to His disciples and saying, “Take, eat, this is my body,”

He took the cup, and gave thanks, giving it to them said, “Drink all of it, this is the blood of the new covenant, poured out for many for the remission of sins. I will not drink the wine again until I drink it with you in God’s kingdom.”

Mat 26:26 And while they were eating, Jesus having taken the bread, and having blessed, did brake, and was giving to the disciples, and said, `Take, eat, this is my body;'[10]
Mat 26:27 and having taken the cup, and having given thanks, he gave to them, saying, `Drink ye of it -- all;
Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out -- to remission of sins;
Mat 26:29 and I say to you, that I may not drink henceforth on this produce of the vine, till that day when I may drink it with you new in the reign of my Father.'

continued
 
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Charlie V

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Jesus pronouncement that His blood was “poured out for many” should dismiss the notion that very few are saved. But does this rule out universal salvation, because Christ said “many” and not “all”?

As noted in a previous chapter, “many” is not a limiting term, but an expansive term, often used to describe multitudes of people. This usage may be similar to the use of “many” in Romans 5:15-19, which clearly in context (Romans 5:12, 18) refers to all mankind, the “many” are all those who died after Adam’s transgression.

The many for whom Jesus blood was poured out might also be all those who would not otherwise be saved. Jesus stated earlier, in Matthew 9:12-13:

9:12 But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.

9:13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus and the disciples sang a hymn, and then went to the Mount of Olives. Jesus told them that they will all fall away from Him that very night, for it is written, “I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered abroad,” but after having risen, He will go before them to Galilee.

Peter said that he will never fall away, but Jesus told him, “Tonight, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows, you will deny me three times.”

Peter said, “Even if I must die, I will not deny you,” and so said all the disciples.


Mat 26:30 And having sung a hymn, they went forth to the mount of the Olives;[11]
Mat 26:31 then saith Jesus to them, `All ye shall be stumbled at me this night; for it hath been written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad;
Mat 26:32 but, after my having risen, I will go before you to Galilee.'
Mat 26:33 And Peter answering said to him, `Even if all shall be stumbled at thee, I will never be stumbled.'
Mat 26:34 Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, that, this night, before [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-crowing, thrice thou wilt deny me.'
Mat 26:35 Peter saith to him, `Even if it may be necessary for me to die with thee, I will not deny thee;' in like manner also said all the disciples.

Jesus refers to Zechariah 13:7, “smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered” suggesting that the falling away of the disciples will fulfill prophecy.

Christ was often compared to a shepherd. In John 13 He is called the Good Shepherd. In Matthew 18:12-14, Jesus pointed out that a man with a hundred sheep who loses one will leave the hundred to save the one. It is not His will that even one of the little ones remain lost, and the Good Shepherd will not rest until He has brought every one of them home to Him.

One claim of those who deny universal salvation is that we are only saved by our own faith, and without faith, we are destined for eternal torment. If so, then our salvation is on shaky grounds. Even Jesus’ closest and most beloved disciples, such as Peter, destined to deny Christ three times on the eve of His death, can lose faith in dire times. Even after having been at Jesus side, heard His teachings first hand and seen His works, Peter and the disciples lost faith. How much more lacking in faith are we likely to be, then those who were among His twelve disciples, walked by Jesus side, and who many Christians revere as Saints?

It is true that faith can bring great and wondrous things into our lives, indeed, scripture tells us we can move mountains with our faith.[12] Note this passage in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (RSV)

2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--
2:9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

To defend the faith requirement, the suggestion will be made that faith is not itself a work, or that faith is not something of which a person might boast . Certainly, if the passage were suggesting that faith is a requirement for salvation, one must wonder about the phrase, “and this is not your own doing.” Either Paul was referring to Christ’s faith, or he was saying that our own faith is itself as much a gift as salvation—that nothing we do or think or feel can cause us to have faith.

Note Paul’s writings to the Thessalonians, in both his first and second letters:

1 Thessalonians 1:3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power,

If our own faith is not a work, it is certainly of ourselves and something of which we may boast. This is precisely what Peter is doing here, in v.33,

“Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away,”

and again in verse 35,

“Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you.”

Peter is certain of his faith, certain that he will never deny Jesus. But Jesus knows better. He knows Peter is destined to fail in faith, but it is Christ’s faith, and His grace, which has elected mankind to salvation.

Jesus went to Gethsemane, and went away to pray, bringing Peter, James and John. Jesus was filled with deep sorrow. He asked the three disciples to watch over Him while he went ahead to pray, and He fell down and prayed, “Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, but let not my will but let your will be done.”

He returned to the disciples and found them sleeping. “So, you cannot watch over me for even one hour,” He said to them. “Watch and pray that you do not fall into temptation, for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.”

A second time He went away and prayed, “Father, if this cup cannot pass from me unless I drink of it, let your will be done,” and a second time He found the disciples sleeping.

He went away a third time and prayed the same prayer, and returning, He said, “Are you still sleeping? The hour has come and the Son of Man is to be delivered up into the hands of the sinners.”

Mat 26:36 Then come with them doth Jesus to a place called Gethsemane, and he saith to the disciples, `Sit ye here, till having gone away, I shall pray yonder.'[13]
Mat 26:37 And having taken Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful, and to be very heavy;
Mat 26:38 then saith he to them, `Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul -- unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.'
Mat 26:39 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them sleeping, and he saith to Peter, `So! ye were not able one hour to watch with me!
Mat 26:41 watch, and pray, that ye may not enter into temptation: the spirit indeed is forward, but the flesh weak.'
Mat 26:42 Again, a second time, having gone away, he prayed, saying, `My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from me except I drink it, Thy will be done;'
Mat 26:43 and having come, he findeth them again sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.
Mat 26:44 And having left them, having gone away again, he prayed a third time, saying the same word;
Mat 26:45 then cometh he unto his disciples, and saith to them, `Sleep on henceforth, and rest! lo, the hour hath come nigh, and the Son of Man is delivered up to the hands of sinners.
Mat 26:46 Rise, let us go; lo, he hath come nigh who is delivering me up.'

In profound sorrow, Jesus wrestled with the events He knew were to come. “If it is your will,” Christ prayed three times, “Let this cup pass from me.” This was the cup of His blood to be shed for the sin of mankind. The cup is sometimes used as a metaphor for the divine appointments, whether favorable or unfavorable,[14] as in this case.

Each time, Christ added, “but let Your will be done,” even as He had taught us to pray, “thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven[15]

In John 4:34, Jesus told the disciples, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work

It is God’s will which must prevail, and it is Christ’s mission to accomplish His work. He gave His life to have victory over death, and for the sins of mankind. God’s will is for the salvation of all mankind, as stated in 1 Timothy 2:4, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

God is of one mind and one will, and His will cannot be denied. God is ultimately sovereign. We see this through out scripture, for example:

Job 23:13 But he is unchangeable and who can turn him? What he desires, that he does.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established.

Christ came to fulfill the will of God for the salvation of mankind. None of us could have done it—though our spirits may be willing, our flesh is weak. So often, like the apostles who went to pray with Him, we “fall asleep” on the job. Christ told us to pray, that we will not be lead into temptation. So Christ faced temptation in Gethsemane, that His cup may pass from Him, and that He may avoid the unpleasant task ahead. But the will of God must be fulfilled, to the salvation of mankind.

continued
 
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Judas came with a multitude carrying swords and sticks, sent by the chief priests and elders. Judas told them, “Whoever I kiss, take hold of him.”

He went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi,” and kissed Him on the cheek.

Jesus asked him, “Friend, why are you here,” and immediately the men arrested Jesus.

Mat 26:47 And while he is yet speaking, lo, Judas, one of the twelve did come, and with him a great multitude, with swords and sticks, from the chief priests and elders of the people.[16]
Mat 26:48 And he who did deliver him up did give them a sign, saying, `Whomsoever I will kiss, it is he: lay hold on him;'
Mat 26:49 and immediately, having come to Jesus, he said, `Hail, Rabbi,' and kissed him;
Mat 26:50 and Jesus said to him, `Comrade, for what art thou present?' Then having come near, they laid hands on Jesus, and took hold on him.

Only the three Synoptic Gospels contain the account of the kiss of Judas. In John, when Judas came with the multitudes seeking Jesus, Jesus came forward and identified Himself. There was no mention of a kiss. Most believe that that Judas’ kiss was needed to identify Jesus so that someone else was not mistakenly arrested.

The Greek word for kiss, phileo is also one of the words for love in the sense of affection and brotherly love. As we will see, Judas behavior after Christ’s arrest suggests a great remorse over what he had done. Christians often focus on the deceit and betrayal of Judas. Rarely do they consider his remorse.

Jesus statement “Friend, why are you here?” is translated, perhaps more logically, as “My friend, go ahead and do what you have come for” in the NLT and “Friend, {do} what you have come for” in the NASB.

Note that Jesus referred to Judas as “Friend.” He had forgiveness for the betrayal of Judas, just as He would forgive His killers in Luke 23:34, saying, “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

It seems strange to see Jesus refer to Judas as friend, starkly contrasting His statement about Judas in John 6:70, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 13:2 states that the devil had “put it into” Judas heart to betray Christ.

Judas is not the only disciple that Christ compared to a devil. When Peter tried to deny that Christ would be crucified, He answered, “Get behind me, Satan!” The Greek word for Satan means adversary; the Greek word for devil means slanderer. Neither suggests a final or permanent state for a person.

In this chapter, Jesus stated repeatedly that all these things, including Judas’ betrayal, were to fulfill scriptural prophecy. Judas, therefore, was acting in accordance with God’s plan. Jesus prayed in the previous passages that, if the cup may not be taken from Him, then may God’s will be done.

Judas’ actions, though they were the actions of a betrayer and an adversary, were necessary to fulfill God’s plan for the redemption of mankind. He would later feel great and heartfelt sorrow for the betrayal of his Beloved Master who to the very end called him friend.

One of Jesus disciples[17] drew his sword and struck the servant of the chief priest, taking off his ear. Jesus said to him,

“Put away your sword, for all who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Don’t you know that I could call upon my Father, and He will send me more than twelve legions of angels? How, then, would the scriptures be fulfilled? ”

Jesus then addressed the multitudes. “Am I a robber? You came with swords and sticks to take me! I sat with you daily in the temple and you did not take me! But all this has happened that the scriptures may be fulfilled.”

Then the disciples left Him and fled.

Mat 26:51 And lo, one of those with Jesus, having stretched forth the hand, drew his sword, and having struck the servant of the chief priest, he took off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then saith Jesus to him, `Turn back thy sword to its place; for all who did take the sword, by the sword shall perish;
Mat 26:53 dost thou think that I am not able now to call upon my Father, and He will place beside me more than twelve legions of messengers?
Mat 26:54 how then may the Writings be fulfilled, that thus it behoveth to happen?'
Mat 26:55 In that hour said Jesus to the multitudes, `As against a robber ye did come forth, with swords and sticks, to take me! daily with you I was sitting teaching in the temple, and ye did not lay hold on me;
Mat 26:56 but all this hath come to pass, that the Writings of the prophets may be fulfilled;' then all the disciples, having left him, fled.

Jesus’ words point emphatically to the karmic effects of our actions. “Put your sword in its place, for all who take up the sword will die by the sword.” It was clear from the beginning of His ministry that Jesus was a pacifist who opposed violence. In His sermon on the mount, for example, He said, “Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39)

The Greek apollumi, meaning perish or destroy, is used here regarding the effects of the sword. In other passages, some have suggested apollumi to mean annihilation, or worse, eternal torment in an unlimited hell. The word suggests destruction and loss, but never ultimate annihilation or permanent loss which cannot be redeemed through Christ. Perhaps the most powerful use of apollumi, and proof of this statement, is in Luke 19:10, “For the Son of man came to seek and to save the lost.”

The pacifism in the statement, however is clear. Jesus did not come as a sword-bearing conqueror but as a merciful and humble Servant whose purpose was the salvation of mankind, and the time had come for that purpose to be fulfilled. Christ pointed out that His Father would send “twelve legions of angels” if He asked. But He did not want even a single sword drawn in His defense. This must be so, Jesus told them, for the scriptures to be fulfilled.

Regarding Jesus crucifixion as foretold by prophecy and an integral part of God’s plan for the redemption of mankind, a moralistic problem may emerge in some minds that I’d like to discuss briefly. Some challenging the Christian viewpoint have suggested that Christ’s sacrifice, then, suggests a vindictive God who cannot be satisfied except by the shedding of blood. Thomas Talbott addressed the matter this way.

“As George MacDonald was so fond of pointing out, not one word in the New Testament implies that vindictiveness and wrath are ultimate facts about God, or that Christ's sacrifice was required in order to appease a vindictive God. A more accurate understanding would be that Christ's death and resurrection was God's sacrifice to us, the means whereby God changes our attitudes and reconciles us to himself (see, for example, II Corinthians 5:19); it is not a means whereby God's attitude towards us is changed. God's attitude remains the same yesterday, today and forever. For God is love; that is the rock-bottom fact about God.” [18]

As Talbott explained, God is love, and His attitude towards us is forever unchanged. It was God’s plan to reconcile us to Him, to change our attitudes and bring us to an understanding of His truth. The death and resurrection of Jesus was necessary for this to come about, not to appease an angry and vengeful God through blood sacrifice, bringing about a change in God’s attitude towards us, but rather, to reconcile us to Him, as 2 Corinthians 5:19 states, “in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.”

The multitude led Jesus away to Caiaphas, the chief priest. Peter followed from afar and sat with the officers watching. The council was trying to find false testimony against Jesus so they could put Him to death. Finally, two witnesses came forward, one said, “He said, ‘I am able to throw down the sanctuary of God, and after three days build it.’”

Caiaphas demanded that Jesus respond to the charges, but He remained silent. Caiaphas then demanded that Jesus tell him if He is the Christ, the Son of God.

Jesus replied, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Caiaphas angrily tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy! Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy! What is your judgment?
The crowd called for His death, and several people spat in His face and hit Him. They mocked Him, demanding that He prophecy who hit Him.

continued
 
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Mat 26:57 And those laying hold on Jesus led [him] away unto Caiaphas the chief priest, where the scribes and the elders were gathered together,[19]
Mat 26:58 and Peter was following him afar off, unto the court of the chief priest, and having gone in within, he was sitting with the officers, to see the end.
Mat 26:59 And the chief priests, and the elders, and all the council, were seeking false witness against Jesus, that they might put him to death,
Mat 26:60 and they did not find; and many false witnesses having come near, they did not find; and at last two false witnesses having come near,
Mat 26:61 said, `This one said, I am able to throw down the sanctuary of God, and after three days to build it.'[20]
Mat 26:62 And the chief priest having stood up, said to him, `Nothing thou dost answer! what do these witness against thee?
Mat 26:63 and Jesus was silent. And the chief priest answering said to him, `I adjure thee, by the living God, that thou mayest say to us, if thou art the Christ -- the Son of God.'
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith to him, `Thou hast said; nevertheless I say to you, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming upon the clouds, of the heaven.'
Mat 26:65 Then the chief priest rent his garments, saying, -- `He hath spoken evil; what need have we yet of witnesses? lo, now ye heard his evil speaking;
Mat 26:66 what think ye?' and they answering said, `He is worthy of death.'
Mat 26:67 Then did they spit in his face and buffet him, and others did slap,
Mat 26:68 saying, `Declare to us, O Christ, who he is that struck thee?'

Jesus faced trial, and was accused of making the statement, “I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.” No where in any of the Synoptic Gospels did Jesus speak these words, although He did speak of the future destruction of the temple which would actually come to pass in 70 AD. For example, in Matthew 24:2, He pointed to the stones of the temple saying, “Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

John’s Gospel does contain such a quote, which may have been misinterpreted by the witnesses here into the false accusation used against Jesus in His trial, even as it was misunderstood by the Jews to whom He said it.

John 2:18 The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:20 The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
John 2:21 But he spoke of the temple of his body.

Jesus, of course, did not say that He would destroy the temple, but that they would destroy “the temple,” His body, but He will rise again in three days. They had failed to understand His words, even as often, today, people fail to understand His words.

To this accusation, Jesus remained silent. When asked if He was the Son of God, Jesus replied, “So you say,” and then harkened to the prophecies in Psalms and Daniel. His statement, “Hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven,” refers to Psalms 110:1 and Daniel 7:13.

Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Origin wrote regarding Psalms 110, relating it to Paul’s teachings that “For Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet,” and ultimately, to the salvation of all mankind.

We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through his Christ, may recall all his creatures to one end, even his enemies being conquered and subdued. For thus says Holy Scripture, 'The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' And if the meaning of the prophet be less clear, we may ascertain it from the apostle Paul, who speaks more openly, thus: 'For Christ must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet.' But even if that unreserved declaration of the apostle do not sufficiently inform us what is meant by 'enemies being placed under his feet,' listen to what he says in the following words: "For all things must be put under him.' What, then, is this 'putting under' by which all things must be made subject to Christ? I am of opinion that it is this very subjection by which we also which to be subject to him, by which the apostles also were subject, and all the saints who have been followers of Christ. For the word 'subjection,' by which we are subject to Christ, indicates that the salvation which proceeds from him belongs to his subjects, agreeably to the declaration of David, 'Shall not my soul be subject unto God? From him cometh my salvation.'" * * * "Seeing, then, that such is the end, when all enemies will be subdued to Christ, when death--the last enemy--shall be destroyed, and when the kingdom shall be delivered up by Christ (to whom all things are subject) to God the Father; let us, I say, from such an end as this, contemplate the beginnings of things." * * * "The apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, beings destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this."[21]

The other verse Jesus alludes to, Daniel 7, also relates to the subjugation of all things in Christ, and ultimately to universal salvation. The next verse refers to His “dominion and glory, a kingdom that all people, nations and languages should serve Him.”

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

The language of Jesus’ prophecy here is sometimes misunderstood to refer to a future second coming, but clearly, He said that they themselves, Caiaphas and those prosecuting Him, would see Him at the right hand of power, coming in the clouds of heaven. This may again be taken as a reference to the fall of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Some authors and theologians have suggested that “coming in the clouds of heaven” is symbolic language, not referring to a literal return but a spiritual one. Such is the view of David P. Crews in his book, “Prophecy Fulfilled.”

Jesus also characterizes his coming to them as coming “in the clouds of heaven.” This shows that he did not mean to come against them in a personal, physical manner like an earthly king coming to overthrow them. He would use other pagan armies to accomplish that, but the Son of Man would be present in these actions spiritually. Again, Jesus was prophesying and was using symbolic language and figures that these erudite Jews would readily understand. Coming “in the clouds of heaven” is a symbol often used in the Old Testament scriptures to indicate a spiritual event, and these Jews knew that Jesus was promising a spiritual overthrow of their authority and power.

As Peter was sitting in the court, a maid recognized him, saying he was with Jesus. Peter denied knowing Him and went to the porch, where another woman recognized him. He again denied knowing Jesus. After a little while, some bystanders came and again accused him of knowing Jesus, saying his accent gives him away. He invoked a curse on himself, swearing that he didn’t know Jesus. Immediately, a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed. Peter remembered that Jesus had predicted that he would deny Him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed, and he went out and wept bitterly.


Mat 26:69 And Peter without was sitting in the court, and there came near to him a certain maid, saying, `And thou wast with Jesus of Galilee!'
Mat 26:70 And he denied before all, saying, `I have not known what thou sayest.'
Mat 26:71 And he having gone forth to the porch, another female saw him, and saith to those there, `And this one was with Jesus of Nazareth;'
Mat 26:72 and again did he deny with an oath -- `I have not known the man.'
Mat 26:73 And after a little those standing near having come, said to Peter, `Truly thou also art of them, for even thy speech doth make thee manifest.'
Mat 26:74 Then began he to anathematise, and to swear -- `I have not known the man;' and immediately did a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow,
Mat 26:75 and Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, he having said to him -- `Before [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-crowing, thrice thou wilt deny me;' and having gone without, he did weep bitterly.

With Peter’s denial, the prophecy had been fulfilled and the stage was set for Christ’s crucifixion. Peter had boasted of his faith in Christ, but was now humbled. It was up to Christ, through His grace and His saving power, to reconcile humanity.

[1] For parallel passages on the conspiracy against Jesus, see Mark 14:1-2, Luke 22:1-2.
[2] New King James Version. “Passover” is translated “paschal lamb” in the Revised Standard Version and “Passover Lamb” in the New Living Translation.
[3] Perfume: NASB, NLT. Fragrant oil: NKJV.
[4] For parallel passages on the woman with the ointment, see Mark 14:3-9, Luke 7:36-50, John 12:1-7.
[5] For parallel passages on Judas arranging to hand Jesus over, see Mark 14:10-11, Luke 22:3-4.
[6] For parallel passages on preparation for the passover, see Mark 14:12-16, Luke 22:7-14.
[7] For parallel passages on the one who hands Jesus over, see Mark 14:17-21, Luke 22:21-23, John 13:21-30.
[8] An Analytical Study of Words byLouis Abbott
[9] Bible Threatenings Explained by JW Hansen DD
[10] For parallel passages on the last supper, see Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:15-20. See also 1 Corinthians 11.24.
[11] For parallel passages on Peter's denial predicted, see Mark 14:26-31, Luke 22:31-39, John 13:21.
[12] Matthew 17:20, 21:21, Mark 11:23.
[13] For parallel passages on Jesus in Gethsemane Mark 14:32-42, Luke 22:40-46, John 18:1.
[14] Strong’s Concordance 4221 “poterion,” or “cup.”
[15] Matthew 6:10, Luke 11:2.
[16] For parallel passages on the arrest of Jesus, see Mark 14:43-52, Luke 22:47-53, John 18:2-12.
[17] The disciple was identified in John 18:10 as Simon Peter.
[18] “The Inescapable Love of God” by Thomas Talbott, p 37.
[19] For parallel passages on Jesus before the Sanhedrin and Peter's denial, see Mark 14:53-72, Luke 22:54-71, John 18:13-27.
[20] For parallel passages on destroying the house, see Mark 14:58, Thomas 71.
[21] De Principiis I, VI: 1, 2. as quoted in Universalism, The Prevailing Doctrine by J.W. Hansen.
 
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ahab said:
Rom. 9:27 etc.


Romans 9:27 And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, `If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;

The remnant--all those remaining to be saved. His work is the salvation of all mankind, and

Romans 9:28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth."

If you're suggesting that "the remnant" means that Paul is saying that not all Israel will be saved, note that he said only a few chapters later:

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

So the remnant is those remaining to be saved who were not already saved -- for all Israel will be saved, says the Lord!

ahab said:
I think all other passages can more easily be seen to be that all may be saved.


Yet you seem to be claiming that it's impossible for all to be saved.

The passages

ahab said:
It seems to came to reject something you believed because you felt so badly about it.


I cannot imagine how one who is loving in Christ and in the Holy Spirit cannot feel this way.

ahab said:
So we need to be sure that it is the Holy Spirit that we are ‘hearing’ rather than deceiving spirits.


I am absolutely sure, not only that it is the Holy Spirit who has guided me to His Truth, but also that the "deceiving spirits" created the false and horrific doctrine of hell.


ahab said:
No it isn’t the same, but I referred to justice and punishment for murderers not eternal torment.


Then why did you bring it up as a comparison to eternal torment?

ahab said:
Nor do I think God’s punishment can actually be translated ‘chastising’


Then may I suggest that you study the Greek word kolasis, translated in various translations as "punishment" or "chastising," or "correction," a word which was originally a word referring to the pruning of trees, a word which is corrective and cleansing, not retributive.

ahab said:
I think God disciplines those He treats as sons. However I would point out that if Jesus has saved all to eternal life then eternal death must have been an alternative at one point,


May I suggest you re-evaluate the meaning of salvation?
The following sermon is a good place to start.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Hope.html




I've said quite clearly that God is both all-powerful and all-loving.

ahab said:
No that isn’t universal salvation, universal salvation is that he will come or has come to repentance and acceptance, not as I said can come.


It is by grace, and not our works, that salvation comes. If it is our works of repentance and acceptance which saves us, we may boast.

God guides us all to repentance and acceptance, but it is of Him, and not of ourselves.


ahab said:
Otherwise we could wilffuly and gladly go on sinning because we will all be saved anyway.


Absolutely not! Universalists are outspoken among Christians as encouraging a kind, loving, and righteous way of life, not for fear of some fictional place of fire, but rather, to bring the glory of God into the here and now, in our hearts!

Some links to this regard:
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/IfEveryoneWillBeSavedWhyServeChrist.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/WhyLiveAGoodLife.html


ahab said:
Ah but he can no longer ‘not be loved’ as the love of God for him has already been established.on the cross by Jesus. God so loved the world means He has already shown us how much He loves us,


Yes, God loves the world, not the acceptors or the believers, but all the world!

ahab said:
No we are not saying God cannot save all mankind we are saying He can.


He not only can (all-powerful) but He will (all-loving.)


ahab said:
I don’t think Matthew 20 is referring to universal salvation so much as salvation for all who come to the ‘vineyard’ no matter when.


Neither, actually. Matthew 20 is about the naysayers of universal salvation, the begrudging of some of the desire of God to save all men. Some are greedy and want their reward first, proudly proclaiming that they were with God from the start. These are the first, who shall be the last.


ahab said:
If you read the next chapter Matt 21 you will see what the owner of the vineyard does "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.”


Yes, but ultimately, we are saved by grace. This refers to our not finding the kingdom of God, here and now, in our hearts, and we know the kingdom of God is within us.


ahab said:
I would say the same about universalism, but I thought Universalism just believed all would be saved rather than dismissing the idea of hell.


If all are saved, as the Holy Spirit and scripture reveals, how can there be "hell" as defined as eternal torment?




Age-during chastening, not eternal death, is what's scriptural. "Aionios" means "age-during."


ahab said:
Read Luke 16. "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "


I've not only read it, I've studied it. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man contradicts most of the hell-claims. The rich man was punished, not because he disbelieved, but because of his works. There's nothing in the parable suggesting that the rich man will suffer forever, nor that the chasm will never close between Abraham and the rich man.

Detailed exegesis on this parable can be found here:


http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellArticles/RichManParable.htm

and here

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html

and here

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html

There are more, if you're interested.

ahab said:
I dont believe the difference of opinion over whether all are saved or some are saved is the focus of the gospel which is that there is salvation and eternal life in Christ Jesus all the same.which happily is what we both seem to believe

peace .


The gospel is literally the good news, the promise of the salvation of mankind.

Salvation and eternal life in Jesus is promised to all mankind. Christ is the savior of the world, the ransom for all mankind.

Peace,
Charlie
 
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loriersea

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ahab said:
Alas such a view is also a theological precept. The problem is it doesn’t matter whether we are in contempt or rebellion if God is going to do it God might do it regardless of and despite our contempt and rebellion.


I agree it is a precept, but there is nothing wrong with theological precepts per se, only when they are required for salvation. The fact that eternal damnation would be unchangeable if true would make it no less immoral, and would not negate our responsiblity to rebel against it. Just because we can't change something doesn't mean we no longer have a moral duty to speak out against it and stand in opposition to it.

I think you will find the issue of hell and eternal death is more for those who know about Christ and reject Him than those who don’t know about Him.

I would say that there is an enormous difference between knowing about Christ, and actually knowing Christ. I was 26 years old before I had an experience after which I could say I knew Jesus. Before that, I only knew about him. I don't see how God could punish anyone for rejecting what fallible, sinful Christians (as we all are) tell them about Jesus. I mean, as an example, if you go to some of the threads on this board, there are Christians saying some pretty hateful, upsetting things. If I hadn't experienced Jesus, I would probably reject Christianity because of things like that.

But, I also understand that my experience of Jesus is culturally conditioned, and to people in other cultures, it might not be experienced like that. I remember hearing the story of the missionary who went to speak to Buddhist monks, and when he told them about Jesus, one of the monks started to cry. The missionary assumed it was because he was so moved hearing about Jesus for the first time, but the monk said, no, he was crying because he had always known Jesus, even though he had never knew about Jesus before.

I do believe that after death, we will all experience God in a way we were never able to on earth. And, faced with that, I don't think that anyone would be able to reject God. And, even if they did, I don't believe that would stop God from seeking them out. If there was one person left unreconciled to God, I believe that God would not stop until he had reached that one. How could God punish people for all eternity for not responding to the message of Christians who are just as fallible, sinful, and prideful as anyone else? There is no mercy or justice in that.

I've never gotten the courtroom analogy of salvation, that we stand condemned before God, then Jesus comes to pay our penalty. The doctrine of eternal damnation, in my eyes, is more like a courtroom where there are two men accused of crimes that would give them the death penalty. The judge doesn't look at any evidence, doesn't call any witnesses, but just asks each man, "Do you go to my church? Do you share the beliefs of my church?" One man says yes, and he is let go. The other man says no, and he is sentenced to an eternity of torture. We would consider such a judge unjust if not outright insane, and I cannot believe that God is anything like that judge.
 
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loriersea

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Charlie V said:
The gospel is literally the good news, the promise of the salvation of mankind.

I just want to agree with that. There is no gospel if the vast majority of humanity is going to be tortured for eternity. That is the worst possible news, even if *I* would be saved. It can only be good news if we will all share in God's salvation.
 
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The good news is that all have the opp. to serve God and get eternal life w/ Him, but it is clearly shown that not all will get that. God is holy and just and sin won't just get to run rampant w/o any judgement.
 
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Scholar in training

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ottaia said:
Scholar, "disgrace and everlasting contempt" that sounds so much more loving than eternal torture. Thanks for clearing that up.
Cute post, but it doesn't seem to have any substance as it did not actually address the argument. As I mentioned, any shame that one will experience is self-inflicted. You already know that I am not the type to say that only "Joe Christian" has been granted salvation.

ahab said:
scholar in waiting
That's Scholar in training.

I am not sure quite what why you are trying to pick out just shame that we are saved and set free from or try and replace the idea of eternal life and death with it. Our guilt and shame John 16, Hebrews 10, 1 Peter 2:6, Rom 9 & 10.
I believe there has been a misunderstanding. I am not trying to replace anything - I even said that I believe in hell, one of eternal shame, not eternal pain - however, I assume you realize that "guilt" as we understand it in an individualistic society is not how a diadic society would understand it.
 
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Charlie V

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Lilly of the Valley said:
The good news is that all have the opp. to serve God and get eternal life w/ Him, but it is clearly shown that not all will get that. God is holy and just and sin won't just get to run rampant w/o any judgement.

No universalist claims there isn't any judgment.

Charlie.
 
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Charlie V

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Lilly of the Valley said:
Judgment is final and a final thing. If someone does a judgement on you in a court, it isn't to change the verdict at a later time.

No universalist claims the "verdict" has changed, or that judgment "isn't final" either.

What we disagree on is the sentencing. There is no crime, in man's law or in God's law, for which the sentence is, "We will set you on fire, and you will remain on fire for all eternity."

Charlie
 
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Then how come the Lord clearly stated that, that was the sentence?
 
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