Universalism VS. Scripture

Lilly of the Valley · Oct 8, 2005

Okay, a point just to throw up in the air.....

If everyone would go to heaven anyway, then why would God die for us, why would God want obedience, why would God warn of the consequences of sin and why would the devil work so hard to try to make you fall, because if all go to heaven anyway, then it would be vain for satan to even attempt anything since even if you fall you get heaven. Doesn't work or make sense.

ballfan · Oct 8, 2005

carl unger said:
The millennial eon is the eon to come.

That presents you with a problem. If they can't be forgiven during the "eon to come" and its the 1000 year MK and the judgement is at the end of the 1000 years then you've run out of time for them to be forgiven. How can they then escape the judgement and being found guilty?

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

MoodyBlue · Oct 8, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
Okay, a point just to throw up in the air.....

If everyone would go to heaven anyway, then why would God die for us, why would God want obedience, why would God warn of the consequences of sin and why would the devil work so hard to try to make you fall, because if all go to heaven anyway, then it would be vain for satan to even attempt anything since even if you fall you get heaven. Doesn't work or make sense.

As for making sense, I have never understood this game supposedly going on between God and Satan. God allows this fellow to mess with his creations. For what purpose? To weed out the weak from the strong?

Lilly of the Valley · Oct 8, 2005

MoodyBlue said:
As for making sense, I have never understood this game supposedly going on between God and Satan. God allows this fellow to mess with his creations. For what purpose? To weed out the weak from the strong?

He just does. It's up to us to choose right. It's not like most people are blind.

Scholar in training · Oct 8, 2005

MoodyBlue said:
As for making sense, I have never understood this game supposedly going on between God and Satan. God allows this fellow to mess with his creations. For what purpose? To weed out the weak from the strong?

Can a person grow without conflict or adversity?

MoodyBlue · Oct 8, 2005

Scholar in training said:
Can a person grow without conflict or adversity?

I don't know, but I do wonder if there could be other ways to foster spiritual growth without involving an evil advisary and/or threats of swimming in a lake of fire for all of eternity.

Scholar in training · Oct 8, 2005

MoodyBlue said:
I don't know, but I do wonder if there could be other ways to foster spiritual growth without involving an evil advisary and/or threats of swimming in a lake of fire for all of eternity.

I wonder if it's possible for you to tear down something other than your own strawman.

Rev. Smith · Oct 8, 2005

Scholar in training said:
Can a person grow without conflict or adversity?

The entire Zen method is based on the principal of Wisdom being attained through meditation, prayer and study.

(before our conservative friends get too upset by the referance to Zen, please note that Zen is a method not a religion (hence Zen Buddhists, Zen Shinto and Zen Christians)

stumpjumper · Oct 8, 2005

Scholar in training said:
Can a person grow without conflict or adversity?

I think its possible to grow without conflict for some. But, even if adversity was neccessary (and I do believe in redemptive suffering) you do not need to posit an adversarial being such as the devil. Now, I tend to believe that it is certainly possible that supernatural evil exists but even if it did not you could still have adversity such as the freedom that we find within creation. We are free to follow God or to turn from God and we don't need a devil influencing our actions to realize that fact.

stumpjumper · Oct 8, 2005

Rev. Smith said:
The entire Zen method is based on the principal of Wisdom being attained through meditation, prayer and study.

Would you consider contemplative prayer such as described by St. Teresa de Avila to be a Zen method? I can't remember where I read her but she compared our soul to a butterfly. We are in a cocoon (this life) and we enjoy the shelter of the tree (God presence) for building our strength and wisdom. When we have been strengthened to a point we emerge as butterflies and leave the cocoon behind and fly up towards God. Or something like that I can't remember the whole thing.

When I read that though, I instantly thought about Eastern meditative practices.

Mailman Dan · Oct 8, 2005

If everyone would go to heaven anyway, then why would God die for us, why would God want obedience, why would God warn of the consequences of sin

Good point.

It even goes against universalism to say someone can "earn" heaven by suffering for 1000 years. (or less)

BTW...for ever and ever in scripture isn't nearly the same as Eon, yet still exist. (different greek word?)

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations,You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever.

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

Dan~~~>can see the translation arguement of "eternal" doesn't matter in most verses

PastorJason · Oct 8, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
Okay, a point just to throw up in the air.....

If everyone would go to heaven anyway, then why would God die for us, why would God want obedience, why would God warn of the consequences of sin and why would the devil work so hard to try to make you fall, because if all go to heaven anyway, then it would be vain for satan to even attempt anything since even if you fall you get heaven. Doesn't work or make sense.

You may be right ... what you're saying doesn't make sense. So let's look at it from another angle:

Maybe the presuppositions you list are flawed. Maybe our image of the "atonement" is incorrect (God dying for us). Maybe our conception of what God wants (obedience) is flawed. Maybe the concept of the "devil" or "Satan" working to "make us fall" is also not correct. Maybe this traditional "orthodoxy" that folks keep tossing around, without properly understanding its actual historical development within church doctrine, is the problem. Maybe the answer is right ... what folks might consider as the "basis" that disproves it is totally in error, and there are other points of view that make just as much sense that actually do work. Maybe there's a bigger picture here that we're not seeing because we're so darned sure of the rectitude of our own beliefs, that we instantly dismiss any view that challenges it.

Scholar in training · Oct 8, 2005

PastorJason said:
You may be right ... what you're saying doesn't make sense. So let's look at it from another angle:

Maybe the presuppositions you list are flawed. Maybe our image of the "atonement" is incorrect (God dying for us).

What are you suggesting, exactly?

Hello There · Oct 9, 2005

That presents you with a problem. If they can't be forgiven during the "eon to come" and its the 1000 year MK and the judgement is at the end of the 1000 years then you've run out of time for them to be forgiven. How can they then escape the judgement and being found guilty?

The 4th eon is not the last eon, the 5th eon is the last eon.
This chart might give you a better idea than what I'm giving you.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 9, 2005

If everyone would go to heaven anyway, then why would God die for us, why would God want obedience, why would God warn of the consequences of sin

because god is more interested in improving our lives, not our deaths!

PastorJason · Oct 9, 2005

Scholar in training said:
What are you suggesting, exactly?

Not all Christians buy into blood atonement. It is certainly not the only standing theology of the crucifixion and resurrection.

Mailman Dan · Oct 9, 2005

because god is more interested in improving our lives, not our deaths!

Riiiiiiight.....

Just like the disciples, who followed Jesus teachings to the letter. I heard they all had happy, long life with no suffering or pain.

O wait... they all got beaten, jailed, and killed.

BTW....they still do in some places. Our church had 1 missionary killed over seas.

Looks like you need a new theory.....

Dan~~~>doesn't believe in "eartly wealth" gospel

Chrysalis Kat · Oct 9, 2005

Mailman Dan said:
Just like the disciples, who followed Jesus teachings to the letter. I heard they all had happy, long life with no suffering or pain.
O wait... they all got beaten, jailed, and killed.

Where did you get that???

This is one another one of those myths that if repeated enough folks will believe it and repeat it without even bothering to substaniate it.

Scholar in training · Oct 9, 2005

PastorJason said:
Not all Christians buy into blood atonement. It is certainly not the only standing theology of the crucifixion and resurrection.

Which theological structure do you "buy into" regarding the crucifixion and resurrection?

chokmah · Oct 9, 2005

Chrysalis Kat said:
Where did you get that???

This is one another one of those myths that if repeated enough folks will believe it and repeat it without even bothering to substaniate it.

Emotionalism breeds belief in some instances.

Universalism VS. Scripture

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