Universalism VS. Scripture

Charlie V said:

All will eventually accept Jesus, and be reconcilled. Jesus said He would "draw all men to me."

It isn't our work of acceptance anyway, which saves us, but it is a matter of grace.

Charlie

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So your position is that all will eventually be saved. All will be forgiven and salvation given to everyone.


Is that your view?

ballfan said:

So your position is that all will eventually be saved. All will be forgiven and salvation given to everyone.


Is that your view?

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That isn't just "my view."

The is the good news of the gospel, the promise of God's covenants, the doctrine stated explicately in a long list of Biblical scriptures, and was the prevailing doctrine of the Christian religion for the first 500 years of its existance. http://christianspiritualism.org/download/Prevailing-Universalism.html

There are others who claim other scriptures refute God's promise of salvation for mankind -- but my faith is in God's promise and not other man's errors. The scriptures used for that refutation are poorly understood and taken out of context by those who make such allegations, and in a few cases, the words have been distorted over the centuries, rendering the translations of the original Greek and Hebrew in error.

For sound exegesis on such scriptures, try:

www.tentmaker.org
www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

I also recommend Thomas Talbotts "The Inescapable Love of God."

Charlie

Not everyone will be saved and that is biblical. It's clearly stated in the Bible that the path is narrow and few will find it, thus, few make it.

Lilly of the Valley said:

Not everyone will be saved and that is biblical. It's clearly stated in the Bible that the path is narrow and few will find it, thus, few make it.

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But of course, you are one of the ones who make it? Why are you all so into others not making it. People seem to take some form of perverse pleasure in telling people they will be damned. Kind of twisted if you ask me.

Yes, before I believed in Universal Salvation it made me feel oh so righteouss that I was one of the "few" people to make into heaven.

Lilly of the Valley said:

Not everyone will be saved and that is biblical. It's clearly stated in the Bible that the path is narrow and few will find it, thus, few make it.

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Thanks for asking about this passage, I know it must seem confusing to you that the Bible clearly states that all are saved (for example, Christ is the savior of the world, the ransom for all, the reconcilliation of the world, Christ gave himself for the sin of the world, Christ will draw all men to him) and then appears not to, such as the narrow gate, you must think the Bible is contradictory, but I assure you, such passages as you mention can be explained, let me provide you with some sound exegesis.

Here's something I wrote some time ago regarding that passage:

Jesus then said to go through the straight gate, because “wide is the gate that leads to destruction.” “Destruction” is from the Greek “apoleia,” meaning utter ruin, death, desolation, perdition. The “straight gate” is not a literal gate through which one physically enters; as is consistent with Jesus' style of teaching; He uses a metaphor to illustrate the way of the righteous in contrast with the way of the sinful.

Mat 7:13 `Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;[1]

Mat 7:14 how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!



“Life” is from the Greek “zoe,” which refers not only to physical life, but, as Strong’s Concordance states, “of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God,” and “life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed.”

Few people follow the path of Christ, the active, vigorous life, devoted to God, which is the straight gate, the gate we should strive for. Most people fall short of that path, acting in ways that lead to destruction and ruin in their lives.


Another author, Charles Slagle wrote this:

In Luke 13:23-30, Jesus was asked if only a few would be saved. He said to strive to enter into the narrow gate, for many would try and not be able.[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Christ came, not to the gentiles (the world population in general), but to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 15:24). These were already God’s chosen covenant people—all of whom will finally be saved, according to Paul (Romans 11:26). Bear in mind that these covenant people are the ones Christ is talking to on this occasion.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So, the Lord is not here contradicting promises He has made elsewhere by saying that only a few will ever be saved. Otherwise John 12:32 would have quoted Him as saying, “If I be lifted up, I will draw only a few people to Myself.” Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 15:22 would say, “In Adam all die; in Christ only a few will be made alive.” So Luke 13:23-30 is not about whether Christ will eventually reap the full harvest of human souls He paid for with His own blood—that is, how many will finally be saved (Gen. 22:17-19, Romans 4:13, also note carefully Romans 11:15-16,32,36).[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Here He is talking about being saved during this dispensation to occupy a rulership role in His love-kingdom—to act as co-laborers, co-restorers with Him in His world-harvest field (John 4:34-38). Only those who enter the narrow gate of self-denial, allowing Christ to perfect them in love and holiness can qualify to minister to the world in this era as well as the Kingdom Millennial Age to come. These will shine as lights set on a hill (Matt. 5:14; Ps. 48). They will serve as kings and priests—a holy nation, a royal priesthood—to reflect God’s character to the world (1 Pet. 2:9-12). Many are called to this high privilege, but few respond. Such as refuse will find themselves in a place of outer darkness—not “forever,” but for a season (Matt. 25:14-30). This describes exactly what happened to many Jews when Jerusalem was crushed under Rome’s armies in 70 AD—which Christ prophesied in Matthew 24 and 25.[/font]



continued.

Another author, and Doctor of Divinity, JW Hansen wrote:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THE STRAIT GATE[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Strait Gate" and the "Few saved" are thought by many to indicate the final salvation of only a portion of the human family. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The question was asked by some one (Luke xiii:23 and Matt. vii:13,14): "Lord, are there few that be saved? and he answered: "Strive to enter in at the strait gate; for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open unto us, and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are; then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No intelligent reader suposes this language literal--that there is a gate at which men knock, after death, for admission into heaven. The Kingdom of God is Christ's reign on earth, and its gate signifies entrance into it. "The Kingdom of God," "Kingdom of Heaven," etc., is always in this world.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And every careful reader will see that the language is entirely confined to the present.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Lord, are there few that be 'saved'?" The literal rendering is: "Are those being saved few?" The question relates entirely to the number then accepting Christianity. But inasmuch as all partialist Christians believe that the great mass--all but a small minority of mankind--will be finally saved, it is very inconsistent for any one thus believing to apply this language to man's final condition. "Are there few that are now being saved?" is the literal rendering of the question From what? Not from endless torment, but from certain evil consequences in this world.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And the answer to Jesus shows that the application was confined to those to whom he was speaking.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Lord" (they say) "we have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The words apply entirely to those who had heard him speak in their streets, namely the Jews, whose advantages were about to be taken away, and given to the Gentiles, who were to enter the kingdom by faith, with faithful Abraham, while they were thrust out. The weeping and gnashing of teeth represents their chagrin and rage at their lot, despising the Gentiles as they did.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This same subject is thus treated in Matt. vii:13,14.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because, strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As we just said, it is entirely inconsistent for any advocate of endless punishment to quote this language in support of that doctrine, inasmuch as all such believers now teach that the great majority of souls will be finally saved, while only the small minority will be forever lost. The Savior referred, by the Strait Gate, to the exacting nature of his religion. The road was narrow, and difficult to follow, and but few then followed it, while the many avoided it, and pursued the broad road of error and sin. The words have the same application today, well expressed by good Dr. Watts:[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Broad is the road that leads to death,[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And thousands walk together there,[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But wisdom shows a narrow path,[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]With here and there a traveller.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The language teaches that only the few then walked in the narrow way marked out by Christ while the many chose the broader way of wrong. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If we refer the passage to the future world, we cannot excape the conclusion that heaven will only contain a few souls, while the great majority will be damned. It has no reference to the future world whatever, but denotes the few who in our Savior's day went right, while the great multitude went wrong. Dr. A. Clarke says: "Enter in through this strait gate--i.e., of doing to every one as you would he should do unto you; for this alone seems to be the strait gate."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The language in Luke has a more special application to the Jews than that in Matthew, which may be applied to every age since Christ, and to the present. It is as true now as at the time Jesus spoke, that the path of Christian goodness is a difficult one, followed by a comparative few, while the way of wickedness is broad and much travelled. But it will not always be so.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whoever refers the language to the final condition of the human race must admit that only a few will ever be holy and happy, while the great multitude will be lost. It has no such application, but teaches that at the time Jesus spoke the many went wrong, while only the few chose the way of life.[/font]


And Louis Abbot in "An Analytical Study of Works," wrote:


Matthew 7:13,14. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be with go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (King James Version)
This passage must be interpreted according to its context. The context of the Gospels is the kingdom in which Jesus will be reigning on this earth. Matthew 7:13,14 is in the context of the Sermon on the Mount. This sermon presents the principles and the rule of Jesus in His Kingdom on this earth. "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." (Matt. 5:5) This passage tells us the real nature of this sermon, for the meek have never inherited the earth nor have they ever reigned. It is important that we do not confuse events which will happen here in earth in future ages with what happens in eternity. Generally, revelation about events far into the future are not revealed by God until it is time.



(Editor's note): Unfortunately, the doomsday preachers of all generations have made this mistake over and over again. Tertullian, a leading third century theologian who, unfortunately gave us many of our theological words that we never seem to be able to understand, was certain Jesus was going to come in his life-time and set up his kingdom. They were even certain where it would begin and it was not Jerusalem. He and the rest of the Montanist sect were obviously wrong. Martin Luther stated he was certain the world would end within 50 years. Martin Luther was wrong. There are dozens of denominations of Christianity that were founded by people who were certain enough of when Jesus would return that they set exact dates. They were wrong, but many of the denominations which were formed based on their false dates are still with us.

The entrance way into the fullness of the Life Jesus Christ desires for us to have is certainly strait and narrow. There is room for only one person to pass through and that is Jesus Christ Himself. No one apart from being crucified with Him an becoming one with Him will enter into this realm. Our pastors, elders, Popes cannot stand besides us. There is room for only one. Our traditions, creeds, "correct" doctrines cannot come with us. There is only One Word. There is room for only Him. Our prejudices, anger, bitterness, self-righteousness, self-pity etc., cannot come with us. There is only room for Love.

Charlie

ottaia said:

But of course, you are one of the ones who make it? Why are you all so into others not making it. People seem to take some form of perverse pleasure in telling people they will be damned. Kind of twisted if you ask me.

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It has to do w/ truth. If you actually believe truth, you can make it. It's not that complex.

carl unger said:

Yes, before I believed in Universal Salvation it made me feel oh so righteouss that I was one of the "few" people to make into heaven.

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I don't feel that. I feel it's the grace of God, nothing of me, since I still have a ways to go. It has to do w/ truth vs. error.

Charlie V said:

That isn't just "my view."

The is the good news of the gospel, the promise of God's covenants, the doctrine stated explicately in a long list of Biblical scriptures, and was the prevailing doctrine of the Christian religion for the first 500 years of its existance. http://christianspiritualism.org/download/Prevailing-Universalism.html

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Except everyone isn't simply forgiven. Some never will be.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So right off we're able to find an error in your view.

ballfan said:

Except everyone isn't simply forgiven. Some never will be.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So right off we're able to find an error in your view.

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then i guess according to your interpretation of that verse, Christ can't truly conquer all of sin you ought to check out an interpretation of those verses that your used. it's nice seeing an interpretation that fits the entirity of scriptures. go to http://www.tentmaker.org/ and take the time to find the article about this verse, and take the time to browse through things that may not agree with all your personal views. happy reading (i'll post no more here in this thread, so you don't need to bother responding to my post. check out something else that may not be like yours, and fully explains itself with scripture reference and Christian doctrine, and if you don't check it out, why are you debating? )

Jesus tells a parable in which there is no doubt universalism will not fit.



Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

tattedsaint said:

then i guess according to your interpretation of that verse, Christ can't truly conquer all of sin you ought to check out an interpretation of those verses that your used. it's nice seeing an interpretation that fits the entirity of scriptures. go to http://www.tentmaker.org/ and take the time to find the article about this verse, and take the time to browse through things that may not agree with all your personal views. happy reading (i'll post no more here in this thread, so you don't need to bother responding to my post. check out something else that may not be like yours, and fully explains itself with scripture reference and Christian doctrine, and if you don't check it out, why are you debating? )

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I have checked out the verses. The verses are not in code. They mean what they say. There is a sin which will not be forgiven. Are you really argueing that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven? God through his word states directly that it won't ever be forgiven.

There is a sin which will not be forgiven. Are you really argueing that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven? God through his word states directly that it won't ever be forgiven.

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incorrect, Jesus didn't say it would NEVER be forgiven.
the correct translation is "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age/eon, or in the age/eon to come." (Matt.12:32).

How long do you believe and "age/eon" is?

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1000 years, it could even be less because Jonah claims to be in the whale's belly "for ever" when actually he came out after 3 days, The same kind of situation occurs with Sodom.

What Greek word exist for "Eternal?"

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carl unger said:

incorrect, Jesus didn't say it would NEVER be forgiven.
the correct translation is "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age/eon, or in the age/eon to come." (Matt.12:32).

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Seems definite to me. It won't be forgiven.

What age/eon is to come?

carl unger said:

1000 years, it could even be less because Jonah claims to be in the whale's belly "for ever" when actually he came out after 3 days, The same kind of situation occurs with Sodom.

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An Aion is not 1,000 years, but an indefinite amount of time, the amount of time it takes for something to come to pass.

Many references to the Aion specifically referred to the end of the age of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Charlie

sorry I was most likely thinking of the millenian eon (4th eon) and that lasts 1000 years.

Now I'm assuming you are a preterist right?

Seems definite to me. It won't be forgiven.
What age/eon is to come?

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The millennial eon is the eon to come.