Universalism: pros and cons

[Joykins]

The other thread is closed.

If you're not sick of the topic, have at it here.

I'm still interested in discussing the benefits or drawbacks of Universalism especially as relates to evangelistic efforts.

Feel free to range a bit off-topic also.

 

[Tkjjc]

A little Backround:

In Christianity Circles:


In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans will be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to a harmony in God's kingdom. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels. Universalism was a fairly commonly held view among theologians in early Christianity: In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.[1]. The two major theologians opposing it were Tertullian and Augustine. In later centuries, Universalism has become very much a minority position in the major branches of Christianity, though it has a long history of prominent adherents.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Please post your thoughts here:

http://christianforums.com/t6715428...ion-threads-be-closed-at-the-ops-request.html

I will ask the Support staff to change the thread title to make it more inclusive.

 

[Joykins]

Isn't conditional immortality more or less the same as annihilationism?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Joykins, do you promise not to ask for this thread to be closed?

 

[Tkjjc]

I am not too sure. It say in Revelations that there will be a 1000 years of peace and then Satan is let loose for a season. I am not too sure that there eventually won't be a permanent purge of ALL evil, including those who still at that point turn away from Father. I would think that would be a conditional immortality of some sorts. He does have the power to destroy the soul, as the word says. But, for those right now in this earth realm, it says that we are clay and He, the Father, is the Potter. This means He hardens who He wishes and calls who He wishes. For that to be the end of it all for those people to whom wasn't called, it would seem almost sadistic in some way to punish those people for eternity when He was the reason they were hardened. You know what I mean? Like the Israelites being hardened, so the Gentiles can come to Christ.

 

[Joykins]

Joykins, do you promise not to ask for this thread to be closed?

Crazy Liz, have I ever at any time in my life asked for moderator intervention for anything less severe than a shock site link?

 

[Joykins]

I am not too sure. It say in Revelations that there will be a 1000 years of peace and then Satan is let loose for a season. I am not too sure that there eventually won't be a permanent purge of ALL evil, including those who still at that point turn away from Father. I would think that would be a conditional immortality of some sorts. He does have the power to destroy the soul, as the word says. But, for those right now in this earth realm, it says that we are clay and He, the Father, is the Potter. This means He hardens who He wishes and calls who He wishes. For that to be the end of it all for those people to whom wasn't called, it would seem almost sadistic in some way to punish those people for eternity when He was the reason they were hardened. You know what I mean? Like the Israelites being hardened, so the Gentiles can come to Christ.

I agree with you about the unfairness-seeming of it all.

The millennium thing confuses me though. It seems so unnecessary and convoluted. Surely Jesus could come and wrap things up with the first second coming? Much more efficient...

 

[Tavita]

Thanks for opening this thread, Joykins.

I've had enough of the other, and tonight I feel too tired to make anymore posts, however I will start contributing in the morning, if I feel led to.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Crazy Liz, have I ever at any time in my life asked for moderator intervention for anything less severe than a shock site link?

No, but I needed to ask "on the record," so to speak, considering the policy memo I received from the Theology Admin. I'm not going to waste my time composing responses to people who close threads on the OP's whim before I can hit the "post" button.

I'm through with posting in threads that are going to be closed on a whim.

BTW, I hope everyone will post their thoughts & feelings in this wiki thread:

http://christianforums.com/t6715428-should-threads-be-closed-at-the-ops-request.html

 

[Crazy Liz]

Here's an interesting argument:

God charges us with a directive. Preach the gospel so that all men might be saved. Saved from what? Death and Hell.

What could happen with the witness of a Universalist is anyone's guess! God will hold you responsible if one person is lured away from meeting Christ in repentance because you or any one of you cause him to defer it until Judgment--which is a fairytale scenario and non-scriptural.

Will God hold those responsible who portray God as cruel and capricious for those who reject God on that basis?

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Are you talking about universal reconcilation?

The main issue with it is that it ignores free will and the fact the soul/spirit exists outside of time and is therefore unchangable after death.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Are you talking about universal reconcilation?

The main issue with it is that it ignores free will and the fact the soul/spirit exists outside of time and is therefore unchangable after death.

That's an interesting metaphysic.

I thought biblical theologians were pretty much all monists for the last century or two. IOW, a human being does not HAVE a soul that is ontologically separate from the body. A human being IS a soul.

There is no eternal soul. There is, as the scriptures and the creeds say, the resurrection of the body.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

That's an interesting metaphysic.

I thought biblical theologians were pretty much all monists for the last century or two. IOW, a human being does not HAVE a soul that is ontologically separate from the body. A human being IS a soul.

There is no eternal soul. There is, as the scriptures and the creeds say, the resurrection of the body.

To clarify- the soul involves both the flesh and the spirit. The spirit, by its nature, exists entirely outside of time.

 

[Crazy Liz]

To clarify- the soul involves both the flesh and the spirit. The spirit, by its nature, exists entirely outside of time.

Are you saying humans consist of 3 separate ontological entities, some or all of which are capable of existence separate from the others?

 

[SpiritDriven]

When we read 1 Timothy 4 we discover that the teaching of the early Church, was that we would strive and suffer reproach, because we rely on God who is the saviour of all mankind especially of believers...these things be charging and teaching.

We have to be aware that God issued this instruction, and that we will suffer reproach from those, who just do not believe.

But those who are meant to hear...do get to hear.
They are the elect, like us....our place is to ensure that we speak or in this instance post, so that the elect get to hear...or in this instance read.

We do not do the revealing to them....God does.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Check out this wonderfull Gospel Teaching...

The Title...A Special Salvation

http://www.gospelfortoday.org/jteachings/special_salvation.htm

Peace

 

[SpiritDriven]

Here's an interesting argument:

Will God hold those responsible who portray God as cruel and capricious for those who reject God on that basis?

Yes very much so.....do you think that it is a mere coincidence that so few people believe Gods great plan of salvation as anounced in the Bible ?

It was only in recent times that the reality of who actualy is on the broad path to destruction has sunk in for me.

We would do anything to keep them from themselves, but they just refuse to listen, even when confronted with the word of God.

It was never our call.....we rejoice in the knowledge instead that their destruction is eonion....and not eternal as they teach......ironic isnt it...

Peace

 

[icedtea]

Isn't there a verse which says hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire?
Would not that annihilate them?
I honestly don't know, do we know everything about what happens?

 

[SpiritDriven]

No... none of us can say that we truly know how God will accomplish his great plan of Salvation, in its entirety.

We only get glimpses....example, Behold I make all things new.

That cannot happen if even 1 person misses out, other wise God would have said, Behold I make all things new except for...

Fortunatly God has promised to make all things new, when you look at the word all...how does the Dictionary define the word all.