Universalism: pros and cons

[Rajni]

A little detail I picked up on in reading the Slick link.


First, he says,




"... most universalists who claim the title 'Christian universalists' do not accept the standard doctrine of the Trinity..."


Further down, he says,

"...But to be fair, many universalists affirm the Holy Spirit as the third person in the Godhead."



Initially, he claims that most universalists deny the Trinity, but then he says that they affirm the Holy Spirit as the 3rd person in the Godhead, which essentially means they're acknowledging the Trinity. Which is it, I wonder?

I have no problem with believing in the Trinity, myself. That's the way I've always understood the Godhead.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

 

[Tavita]

So what? All we have in these threads are people's opinions. Should that article be disregarded because it's your opinion that that article is one man's opinion?

So what, Z!! lol... the article is just what others have been saying in this and other threads anyways... it's nothing no-one has heard before... and I can say it's someone's else's opinion, just as you can... lol..

 

[Tavita]

A little detail I picked up on in reading the Slick link.


First, he says,




"... most universalists who claim the title 'Christian universalists' do not accept the standard doctrine of the Trinity..."


Further down, he says,

"...But to be fair, many universalists affirm the Holy Spirit as the third person in the Godhead."



Initially, he claims that most universalists deny the Trinity, but then he says that they affirm the Holy Spirit as the 3rd person in the Godhead, which essentially means they're acknowledging the Trinity. Which is it, I wonder?

I have no problem with believing in the Trinity, myself. That's the way I've always understood the Godhead.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

Too true, chaela. I've never had a problem with the Nicene Creed. This is just one tiny example of how they misrepresent and make wild claims against Christian Universalism because they don't understand it or what we really believe.

 

[Floatingaxe]

For just one example, check out my signature...

Scripture would make more of an impact.

 

[Floatingaxe]

.. it's one man's opinion...

It is a good, solid, bible-based opinion, that I totally agree with, and I am sure millions of other Christians do as well.

 

[Floatingaxe]

A little detail I picked up on in reading the Slick link.
First, he says,

"... most universalists who claim the title 'Christian universalists' do not accept the standard doctrine of the Trinity..."
Further down, he says,

"...But to be fair, many universalists affirm the Holy Spirit as the third person in the Godhead."
Initially, he claims that most universalists deny the Trinity, but then he says that they affirm the Holy Spirit as the 3rd person in the Godhead, which essentially means they're acknowledging the Trinity. Which is it, I wonder?

I have no problem with believing in the Trinity, myself. That's the way I've always understood the Godhead.

Understand the meaning of "most" and then "many", and you've got yourself an understanding of the author...

 

[mont974x4]

Universalism is a lie, a false teaching that teaches a false secuirty.

Clearly not everyone will be saved:


nasb
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Tit 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
Tit 2:15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.


No where does it say that all men will accept the salvation that God provides.


nasb
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

This is a list of the type of people who will not be saved.

Want more?

nasb
Mat 5:20"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:15"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it atall."

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.




Clearly not everyone will be saved, although God does offer it to all.



People who preach this different gospel must repent or suffer the consequences.

NASB
Jud 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Jud 1:10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Jud 1:12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Jud 1:13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.


2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Pe 2:2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2Pe 2:3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

 

[Tavita]

It is a good, solid, bible-based opinion, that I totally agree with, and I am sure millions of other Christians do as well.

It's not a good solid basis because he misrepresents what we believe. He says we don't hold to the Trinity as in the Nicene Creed, and that we don't believe in hell, etc..

From what I read I think he's confusing Christian Universalism with Unitarian Universalism. It's just a hodgepodge of beliefs all thrown together.

 

[Floatingaxe]

It's not a good solid basis because he misrepresents what we believe. He says we don't hold to the Trinity as in the Nicene Creed, and that we don't believe in hell, etc..

From what I read I think he's confusing Christian Universalism with Unitarian Universalism. It's just a hodgepodge of beliefs all thrown together.

It's a great summary that represents what we know to be true as told by universalists themselves--even on this board. The trinity is misunderstood.

No confusion. However, as it appears many universalists really don't attend a church, per se, then how would each universalist even know what the entire body of universalists hold to?

 

[Tavita]

I'm still waiting to see if a formal theology debate takes place on the subject. We have a couple of people who are willing to take the Christian Universalist side but none have come forward for the opposing side.

Here is a post of one Universalist who would love to take it on....

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42987858#post42987858

I'm in agreement with him that these threads of throwing scripture back and forwards on both sides is just plain frustrating, nobody is getting anywhere. Whenever a scripture is pulled out, we know it's been gone over before somewhere back in other threads.

Is there anyone who believes in eternal neverending suffering out there who will take on a formal debate?

 

[Tavita]

It's a great summary that represents what we know to be true as told by universalists themselves--even on this board. The trinity is misunderstood.

No confusion. However, as it appears many universalists really don't attend a church, per se, then how would each universalist even know what the entire body of universalists hold to?

Well, if that's the case... that how would each universalist even know what the entire body of universalists hold to... then WHAT do you consider to be a heresy?? I know for a good fact that I don't believe what some other universalists believe. So where do YOU draw the line and tell someone what they believe is heresy (and by the way false teachings are not regarded theologically as 'heresies').

This is the reason why it can't be debated in these types of threads, because there are no clear cut lines to deal with. You could be responding to someone with a preconceived idea of what they believe in, when in fact they don't believe it at all... and so it gets to confusion and chaos.

 

[Zecryphon]

A little detail I picked up on in reading the Slick link.


First, he says,




"... most universalists who claim the title 'Christian universalists' do not accept the standard doctrine of the Trinity..."


Further down, he says,

"...But to be fair, many universalists affirm the Holy Spirit as the third person in the Godhead."



Initially, he claims that most universalists deny the Trinity, but then he says that they affirm the Holy Spirit as the 3rd person in the Godhead, which essentially means they're acknowledging the Trinity. Which is it, I wonder?

I have no problem with believing in the Trinity, myself. That's the way I've always understood the Godhead.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

I understand what he's saying. He said first that most, not all, don't accept the trinity, so there's a group of people left that do accept the trinity. This group would be the many he goes on to talk about.

 

[Rajni]

No where does it say that all men will accept the salvation that God provides.

If we were to understand the verses teaching ultimate reconciliation from a partial-reconcilation perspective, the following Scriptures would read as follows (words in blue represent a partial-reconciliation impact on the verse):

• Luke 2:10 ...for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to some people.
• I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall some be made alive.
• I Corinthians 15:28 And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put some things under him, that God may be all in some.
• I Timothy 2:3,4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who will have some men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Who gave himself a ransom for SOME, to be testified in due time.
• Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one (the First Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation even so by the righteousness of one (the Last Adam) the free gift came upon some men unto justification of life.
• John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw some men unto me.
• Mark 9:49 For some shall be salted with fire, and some sacrifice(s) shall be salted with salt.
• Phillipians 2:10,11 That at the name of Jesus some knee(s) should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth. And that some tongue(s) should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
• Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall some of the families of the earth be blessed.
• Psalm 22:27 some of the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and some of the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
• Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one some things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth even in him:
• Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile some things unto himself by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
• Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make some things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
• Acts 3:20,21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of some things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
• Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put some things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put some things in subjection under him, he left something that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
• II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling some of the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them and hath committed unto us the word of partial reconciliation.
• John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of part of the world.
• John 3:16 For God so loved the part of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the some of the world.
• Revelation 5:13 And some creatures which is (are) in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and some that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

 

[Zecryphon]

So what, Z!! lol... the article is just what others have been saying in this and other threads anyways... it's nothing no-one has heard before... and I can say it's someone's else's opinion, just as you can... lol..

Yeah, and my point is that it shouldn't be disregarded just because it's someone else's opinion. Is there something wrong with what he wrote in the article? If there was, that's what you should have used to discredit the validity of the article, not that it was just one man's opinion.

 

[Tavita]

It's a great summary that represents what we know to be true as told by universalists themselves--even on this board. The trinity is misunderstood.

No confusion. However, as it appears many universalists really don't attend a church, per se, then how would each universalist even know what the entire body of universalists hold to?

BTW... it's easy to tell that most of you have the two mixed up.

Unitarian Universalism is much different to Christian Universalism, they are far more liberal (I mean way out there liberal) in most areas of beliefs and don't in fact believe in some of most basic tenants of the Christian faith.

And I've told you before, there may be lots of CU who don't go to a regular church but there are plenty who do... and I'm one of them.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well, if that's the case... that how would each universalist even know what the entire body of universalists hold to... then WHAT do you consider to be a heresy?? I know for a good fact that I don't believe what some other universalists believe. So where do YOU draw the line and tell someone what they believe is heresy (and by the way false teachings are not regarded theologically as 'heresies').

This is the reason why it can't be debated in these types of threads, because there are no clear cut lines to deal with. You could be responding to someone with a preconceived idea of what they believe in, when in fact they don't believe it at all... and so it gets to confusion and chaos.

In Christ I am able to judge on each contact what is heretical. This exactly true, then that you are saying that there is a disunity of belief among those who claim "Universalist" as their doctrine.

Yes, Universalism lends to confusion and chaos. The devil's doing, of course. He influences the minds of men by introducing revelations of false "light". Be aware.

 

[Zecryphon]

Too true, chaela. I've never had a problem with the Nicene Creed. This is just one tiny example of how they misrepresent and make wild claims against Christian Universalism because they don't understand it or what we really believe.

I don't doubt there are universalists who accept the Nicene Creed. I have personally talked to universalists who don't accept that creed. So to say that you all accept that creed is just not true.

 

[Tavita]

Yeah, and my point is that it shouldn't be disregarded just because it's someone else's opinion. Is there something wrong with what he wrote in the article? If there was, that's what you should have used to discredit the validity of the article, not that it was just one man's opinion.

We get this thrown at us all the time, Z.. that what we believe is just our opinions... now you're saying I have no right to say the same thing regarding the opposing belief. Who said it was disregarded anyway? I read the articles.. and I've read them before. But I'm not going to BOTHER disputing them because it's just a waste of time... how many threads has there been so far?? How much understanding has been gained on either side? I'm still waiting for the formal debate, pity there are no takers yet for the eternal torment side.

 

[Floatingaxe]

BTW... it's easy to tell that most of you have the two mixed up.

Unitarian Universalism is much different to Christian Universalism, they are far more liberal (I mean way out there liberal) in most areas of beliefs and don't in fact believe in some of most basic tenants of the Christian faith.

And I've told you before, there may be lots of CU who don't go to a regular church but there are plenty who do... and I'm one of them.

I am aware of the differences. I am not mixed up. Both are heresies. One moreso than the other.

 

[Zecryphon]

Well, if that's the case... that how would each universalist even know what the entire body of universalists hold to... then WHAT do you consider to be a heresy?? I know for a good fact that I don't believe what some other universalists believe. So where do YOU draw the line and tell someone what they believe is heresy (and by the way false teachings are not regarded theologically as 'heresies').

This is the reason why it can't be debated in these types of threads, because there are no clear cut lines to deal with. You could be responding to someone with a preconceived idea of what they believe in, when in fact they don't believe it at all... and so it gets to confusion and chaos.

Right, this is why you need a formal debate with a premise in place that will be supported by one side and examined by the other side. At the end of such a debate it is very likely that Universalism as a theology will not be proven to be true, just that the premise put forth about Universalism, whatever that premise is, is what will be decided to be true or false.