Universalism: pros and cons

[SpiritDriven]

Interesting, in how you where called...
My Father pulled our Family out of the Church when I was 5 years of age....so I was lucky I guess that I was never exposed to religion.

When I say religion I mean the Pharisees of this day and age...

God caught up with me later in life....and from your post I can tell you also know truth when it is revealed to you....imagine if you can how wonderfull it was for me... not to have the teachings of religion getting in the way of God revealing.

It knocked my socks off ! literaly!

 

[SpiritDriven]

and yet I am still a human being....and lose patience with those who have been hardened when I should not do so.....

Isnt it wonderfull to know that our right standing with God is because of our faith in his sons obedience and not ours!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, my God is Love. But He does hate sin.

You say that we who know God will punish have hard hearts. Why is that? That is a judgmentally critical thing to say when we all agree that God is love. The thing is, you put Him nicely in a box, but He will not stay there. For God is a jealous God and vengeful on sinners. He tells us that. So, the hearts that are actually hard here are the ones that refuse to see or accept God in all the aspects of His personality...it is grossly unfair to view ANYONE in a one-dimensional way. It is also a gross misrepresentation to classify God as only Love! Didn't Jesus get angry and make a whip and lash the vendore in the temple? Didn't he erupt in anger and turn their tables upside down? God is jealous at our unfaithfulness, and angry at sin--He burns at it, and He tells us that all throught Scripture, so if you read the bible, you ought to know it.

That is a "pie in the sky, by and by" type of faith. It is not complete.

Jesus Christ has beaten the enemy by being nailed to a cross. He has stepped on his head and crushed it. And the full realization of that cosmic event will take place one day before the Great White Throne, where sin and death will be forever cast into the lake of fire and we who follow the Lamb, the King of all Kings will live forever with Him in peace. No more sin, no more Satan, and no more sinners. All will be destroyed forever.

Love will destroy all hate and sin. Love will reign eternally.

 

[Tkjjc]

Yes, my God is Love. But He does hate sin.

But not the sinner, floatingaxe. See, that is WHERE you and I differ. My kids do things all the time, which I don't like. Doesn't mean I hate them.

You say that we who know God will punish have hard hearts. Why is that? That is a judgmentally critical thing to say when we all agree that God is love.

No, you say God is Love and Hate. That isn't a very good descriptive of the Holiest of Holies in the Universe.

The thing is, you put Him nicely in a box, but He will not stay there.

He is actually in Heaven, where NO-ONE has seen Him.

For God is a jealous God and vengeful on sinners. He tells us that.

Yes, God doesn't like for people to worship other god's. Of course not. No more than I don't want my kids calling another man daddy. There is only 1 God, like I am my kid's only daddy. I don't see the relevance here.

So, the hearts that are actually hard here are the ones that refuse to see or accept God in all the aspects of His personality...it is grossly unfair to view ANYONE in a one-dimensional way.

It says God is LOVE. Over and Over. I don't see where it says God is Hate. Show me.

It is also a gross misrepresentation to classify God as only Love!

That is what the my Bible says. What does yours say?

Didn't Jesus get angry and make a whip and lash the vendore in the temple? Didn't he erupt in anger and turn their tables upside down?

Getting angry and murdering people are 2 different things. He was angry at the fact they perverted His Father's House. No more so, than I would if they did it to mine.

God is jealous at our unfaithfulness, and angry at sin--He burns at it, and He tells us that all throught Scripture, so if you read the bible, you ought to know it.

Never said that there won't be punishment for the wicked blasphemous people who profane the name of the Lord. I totally agree with that.

That is a "pie in the sky, by and by" type of faith. It is not complete.

And what makes God complete? The words of man? Or His Word. It says He is Love, not Hate.

Jesus Christ has beaten the enemy by being nailed to a cross. He has stepped on his head and crushed it.

And the enemy is?? I would think, since it says that the devil is the enemy, that would be who He crushed. Not people, as He came to save them.

And the full realization of that cosmic event will take place one day before the Great White Throne, where sin and death will be forever cast into the lake of fire and we who follow the Lamb, the King of all Kings will live forever with Him in peace.

I don't see what this point is here. Death and sin being cast out, is something we ALL want. Do you have a problem with the last being first, and the first last? ALL will be reconciled to Father, as it says.

No more sin, no more Satan, and no more sinners.

Actually, from reading Revelations, it seems that sinners will be present outside the gates. So the lake must be right outside, so the nations can ride beside it on the way in. Like the dump was in Jerusalem.

All will be destroyed forever.

Not a pretty picture here either. It also says God will make ALL things new. That is a pretty picture.

Love will destroy all hate and sin. Love will reign eternally.

As God is Love, this I TOTALLY agree with.

But people do bad things. Why must a person think because they have said a prayer, or performed a ritual, that this gives them salvation? That is a WORKS based salvation. Love is what makes Jesus Christ's Blood work. He Loved US FIRST, remember, and to reconcile Himself and His Father to His Creation, His father sent Him here to accomplish His Will.

Why do people look at us like this is a falsehood? Show me! I believe God is Love, and it isn't enough for some people. I believe in punishment for the sin they commit in this one, and it isn't enough. I do not believe He will forever torment ANYONE, so that is a huge difference between us. The English is actually wrong on that point, and this has already been proven.

People make us sound like we aren't Christians, but I say that our Love that we have for our fellow mankind, shows more about God, than ALL your doctrines. We shall see what God decides, on that dreadful day of His.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Where have I ever said that God hates the sinner? He hates sin. sin is in our very fabric. If we aren't made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ, the provided Redeemer of sin, then we are not viewed as righteous and our sin sends us to hell.

I am sure that God even in His wrath will be utterly heartbroken sending to hell those who rejected His wonderful and perfect Son.

God is nt a liar and He is not a wimp. What He says is true and He never changes.

 

[Floatingaxe]

ALL will be reconciled to Father, as it says.

Chapter and verse and context, please--because that is NOT Scriptural, and is taken out of context, as usual.

 

[Floatingaxe]

You seem to think that God is a parent to all. He isn't. He is only a Father to those who love Him. To whom He has adopted into His family.

Those who reject the Saviour are not of God, nor of His family.

This is where you have gone wrong. You cannot wrap your head around the fact that we have an invitation to come to the Father until our dying breath. After that, the invitation is rescinded and Judgment is due.

God is not the parent of ALL. He divides the wheat from the look-alike tares, and He divides the sheep from the goats. The wheat and the sheep go on to reward and everlasting life, while the tares are burned up with the goats in everlasting fire.

My God isn't hate--Satan is, and he will take with him all those who reject Christ. My God is love and He can be counted on to be the Just Judge and not a poor, wimpy, sappy judge who reneges and relents. Nope.

Regarding preachers...I have hardly heard a word from our pastors on Hell, except to teach it in the basics. We dn't dwell on it, but we don't NEGATE it either! It is part of the full message of God to the WORLD, and no one has the right to delete it from His message, as it adds to the impetus for a convicted person to come to Jesus Christ on repentance.

Do not tamper with the whole truth about who God is. there is nothing terrible about God being a just Judge or a wrathful God. He is HOLY. No one else is but Him. We cannot fathom holiness, but I tell you--this idea of universalism is the inablility to deal with who God is in all His HOLINESS, and the compartmentalizing His attribute of Love away from all the others. Not right at all...

 

[Gwenyfur]

Y'all have heard it too many times to not know it:

Address the TOPIC
NOT each other!!!

This thread is closed for cool down and possible cleaning, since y'all can't play nice with your toys!​

 

[Gwenyfur]

Thread has been cleaned

STOP the personal attacks or it will be closed again....permanently!

 

[Tkjjc]

...

 

[Zecryphon]

Interesting, in how you where called...
My Father pulled our Family out of the Church when I was 5 years of age....so I was lucky I guess that I was never exposed to religion.

When I say religion I mean the Pharisees of this day and age...

God caught up with me later in life....and from your post I can tell you also know truth when it is revealed to you....imagine if you can how wonderfull it was for me... not to have the teachings of religion getting in the way of God revealing.

It knocked my socks off ! literaly!

You know, it's really interesting, oh let's just call it what it really is... pathetic, how you bash the church and all it stands for when you've never really been exposed to it first-hand. You should really learn about something first-hand before you decide that everyone who goes to a church is a modern-day Pharisee. All this post has proven is that when it comes to the church, you don't know what you're talking about, because you've never really been a part of it. You're just throwing stones from far away and carrying on your father's prejudice and bias. I have no doubt your father had his reasons for leaving the church. What are yours?

 

[Tkjjc]

You know, it's really interesting, oh let's just call it what it really is... pathetic, how you bash the church and all it stands for when you've never really been exposed to it first-hand. You should really learn about something first-hand before you decide that everyone who goes to a church is a modern-day Pharisee. All this post has proven is that when it comes to the church, you don't know what you're talking about, because you've never really been a part of it. You're just throwing stones from far away and carrying on your father's prejudice and bias. I have no doubt your father had his reasons for leaving the church. What are yours?

Easy with the insults!!

All he said was that there are Pharisees in the church today. Are you one of these? If not, then why the need to defend them? You have to admit, there are a lot of hypocritical people in these bodies of believers, as there was in Jesus's time. But people like Nicodemus wasn't one of these, as he was also a Pharisee and a ruler, but instead of just bashing Jesus, he was truly interested in Jesus, and wanted to learn His teachings. So before we go off half cocked knocking a person's beliefs, understand the meaning behind them.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Who is bashing Jesus here?

As a matter of fact, many of the pharisaical people today are found outside the churches, pointing at those inside. They are those who have taken on a different "religion"....Lone Rangerism.

 

[Zecryphon]

Easy with the insults!!

All he said was that there are Pharisees in the church today. Are you one of these? If not, then why the need to defend them? You have to admit, there are a lot of hypocritical people in these bodies of believers, as there was in Jesus's time. But people like Nicodemus wasn't one of these, as he was also a Pharisee and a ruler, but instead of just bashing Jesus, he was truly interested in Jesus, and wanted to learn His teachings. So before we go off half cocked knocking a person's beliefs, understand the meaning behind them.

"Easy with the insults!!"

Show me one insult. Everything I said is based upon what he's revealed about himself here and in other threads.

"All he said was that there are Pharisees in the church today."

Which he could not possibly know unless he's been in church and heard Pharisaical comments or unless he was relying upon the word of men who have said there are Pharisees in the modern church. Anyone who's read SD's comments on this forum knows that he detests the word of men, so that can't be his source. When was the last time he was in a church, by his own admission? When he was 5. Do you think a 5 year old is educated enough in the doctrines of scripture to be able to identify a Pharisee on their own? Or are they just repeating what they've heard others say, like say, their father?

"Are you one of these? If not, then why the need to defend them?"

Who says I'm defending them other than you?

"You have to admit, there are a lot of hypocritical people in these bodies of believers, as there was in Jesus's time."

Every Christian is a hyporcite. It's not something that's limited to those we'd like to call Pharisees.

"But people like Nicodemus wasn't one of these, as he was also a Pharisee and a ruler, but instead of just bashing Jesus, he was truly interested in Jesus, and wanted to learn His teachings. So before we go off half cocked knocking a person's beliefs, understand the meaning behind them."

I understand what SD has said, the last time he was in chruch is when he was 5 and the church today is full of Pharisees. He is not qualified to comment on the current state of the church if he is not a part of it. It's clear that you'll just turn the other cheek when he says such things, and paints people who go to church as Pharisees. And that' you'll just call me on my comments to him. Biased much?

 

[Phinehas2]

I would like to address post #2. I personally have not seen any evidence that the early church fathers and schools believed or taught universalism.
From the sayings of Origen and company all they seem to say is salvation for all, not salvation of all.
I would never want to say Jesus died for the salvation of some, Jesus died for the salvation of all, that doesnt mean all will be saved.

 

[Floatingaxe]

http://www.carm.org/uni/christianbeuni.htm

 

[Floatingaxe]

http://www.carm.org/uni/christianunie.htm

 

[Tavita]

http://www.carm.org/uni/christianbeuni.htm

.. it's one man's opinion...

 

[Tavita]

I would like to address post #2. I personally have not seen any evidence that the early church fathers and schools believed or taught universalism.
From the sayings of Origen and company all they seem to say is salvation for all, not salvation of all.
I would never want to say Jesus died for the salvation of some, Jesus died for the salvation of all, that doesnt mean all will be saved.

For just one example, check out my signature...

 

[Zecryphon]

.. it's one man's opinion...

So what? All we have in these threads are people's opinions. Should that article be disregarded because it's your opinion that that article is one man's opinion?