Universalism: pros and cons

Zecryphon · Jan 24, 2008

Crazy Liz said:
I went and asked, and apparently what you posted is a common misconception.

http://christianforums.com/t6771518...-details-about-purgatory-and-indulgences.html

Great, you trust the various Catholics on CF and I'll look into official Catholic sources and let you know.

Zecryphon · Jan 24, 2008

Zaac said:
No complaints here.

Because the judgment of Christians that takes place at the Bema Seat will be a judgment of their works done for Christ. It will NOT be a judgment of salvation.

At the Great White Throne of Judgment, an account is given of everything before they are tossed into the lake of fire.

I think you're confusing your inability to be merciful with God's propensity to show mercy where warranted. Why on earth would the ultimate salvation of all cause you to be more merciful? Shouldn't it have the opposite affect?

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit which is essentially ignoring the truth that the Holy Spirit has delivered that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

If you have not accepted of your own free will the gift of salvation offered by Jesus Christ, then His blood is not covering your sins and you will be thrown into the lake of fire.

So that they may give an account of their lives and know why they are going into the lake of fire. He renders final judgment and they are, as they are not in the Lamb's Book of Life, tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Again this is evidence as to why universalism is a dangerous false teaching. He doesn't have to say anything about there NOT being mercy after this judgment.

He tells you that they are thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity. Does that sound to you like He has extended mercy?

Where's your Biblical proof of this? My Bible says 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:13-15

They are called from the dead, judged and thrown into the lake of fire. Where's the mercy?

Absolutely shameful that yall continue to put this forth. For this to be true would mean that God is not just and that He is a liar. As He is Just and not a man that He should lie, it means that this doctrine of universalism is a lie.

As was said before, it's obvious, by the confusion that is not of GOD that it breeds, that universalism is indeed a lie.

All what ways? Folks have taken one or two Scriptures and twisted the meanings and established this false teaching while ignoring the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE that shows that not all will be saved.

One of the benefits of Christ conquering death is that it would no longer have its sting as those in Christ, those who have been saved, would immediately be in His presence.

Yet yall are attempting to sell this lie that all are saved and the sting of death is back and though you may go to the torment of Hell and the lake of fire for a while, you'll get out after an age. But in the same breath, you're supposedly witnessing the Good News?

And God's people say again, God is NOT a God of confusion. His Word says 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:16 My salvation came after I believed in Him.

Yet you're putting forth this doctrine that goes against what His Word says.

Those who have not believed go to hell. They are called out of hell and judged and tossed into the lake of fire for eternity because they have not believed. Yet yall would have folks believe that He gets them out of what He says is for eternity even thoughthey have not believed?

Either God is a liar or the ones espousing these false teachings of universalism are.

You would have someone base their eternal soul on something you don't know is going to take place and in which God's Word in NO WAY says is going to take place?

Seriously, how do some of yall witness for Christ and His Good News?

Do you tell folks that they will go to hell for a while, then get tossed into a burning lake of sulphur for a while, and then somewhere down the road, even though you have not believed in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, He's gonna pull you out of that eternal fire. His Word doesn't say that He will, but yall want folks to go through hell and a burning lake believing that He's gonna do something contrary to His Word and His Character?

Shameful.

Call it an age or whatever you like. God's Word also doesn't say that there will be a reprieve from the Lake of Fire but yall surely seem to be pushing that COMPLETELY unBIBLICAL statement.

If you have not accepted of your own free will the gift of salvation offered by Jesus Christ, then His blood is not covering your sins and you will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Zaac, where are the scriptures that support we have freewill when it comes to salvation?

Floatingaxe · Jan 24, 2008

chaela said:
Exactly. Therefore, since mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13), and salvation cannot be negated, we cannot assume that salvation does not come at all to those still in need of it.

"Never had" salvation. Not "never will have" it.

__________________________________________________

This is pure twisting of God's word to suit your own sensibilities. Have you ever taken God at His word--in context, ever?

Rajni · Jan 24, 2008

Because the judgment of Christians that takes place at the Bema Seat will be a judgment of their works done for Christ. It will NOT be a judgment of salvation. At the Great White Throne of Judgment, an account is given of everything before they are tossed into the lake of fire.

Why on earth would the ultimate salvation of all cause you to be more merciful? Shouldn't it have the opposite affect?

Nope. It caused a pretty amazing attitude adjustment in me in that regard. People tend to behave like the god they worship. Therefore, if God is forgiving enough to forgive everyone, and we are called to be like Him, then we tend to be far more forgiving than if we believed He had a saturation point at which He just threw in the towel on some people.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit which is essentially ignoring the truth that the Holy Spirit has delivered that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

So you're absolutely sure that there is a sin that Christ Himself could not atone for? I don't think I could be so bold as to say that, but that's just me.

If you have not accepted of your own free will the gift of salvation offered by Jesus Christ, then His blood is not covering your sins and you will be thrown into the lake of fire.

A man dead in his transgressions cannot accept anything. Like salvation, faith itself is a gift of God. Therefore, if He bestows that gift on someone, they will receive it. He is not only the Finisher of our faith, He is also the Author of it. If He begins a good work in someone, He will bring it to completion.

So that they may give an account of their lives and know why they are going into the lake of fire. He renders final judgment and they are, as they are not in the Lamb's Book of Life, tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

"For all eternity" is not in the original language God used to convey this message.

Again this is evidence as to why universalism is a dangerous false teaching. He doesn't have to say anything about there NOT being mercy after this judgment.

So I guess we're even there, LOL!

He tells you that they are thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity. Does that sound to you like He has extended mercy?

"For all eternity" is not in the original language God used to convey this message.

Where's your Biblical proof of this? My Bible says 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:13-15

He was thrown in to the Lake of Fire for how long?

Absolutely shameful that yall continue to put this forth. For this to be true would mean that God is not just and that He is a liar. As He is Just and not a man that He should lie, it means that this doctrine of universalism is a lie.

You believe the Scriptures originated in English?? Now, would you please explain why you are calling God a liar? Doesn't He have the right to do what He wants with His own creation?

As was said before, it's obvious, by the confusion that is not of GOD that it breeds, that universalism is indeed a lie.

It's not confusing. Not all confusion is of the debil. Sometimes it's simply an indicator that more research is in order. It would probably be far easier for you to do some research than simply dispute, but that depends on whether one is seeking understanding or simply argument.

Folks have taken one or two Scriptures and twisted the meanings and established this false teaching while ignoring the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE that shows that not all will be saved.

"One or two"? Now I really have to wonder if you have even been listening, lol!

One of the benefits of Christ conquering death is that it would no longer have its sting as those in Christ, those who have been saved, would immediately be in His presence.

Amen!

Yet yall are attempting to sell this lie that all are saved and the sting of death is back and though you may go to the torment of Hell and the lake of fire for a while, you'll get out after an age. But in the same breath, you're supposedly witnessing the Good News?

I'm not sure how constructive it is to accuse someone of selling a lie when it is simply a matter of not understanding what's being said. Listen closely: All ultimately will be saved. Not everyone is "on board" yet. If you are already in Christ, then you will be in His presence (in the happy-happy-joy-joy kind of way that evangelicals have come to understand) when you die. Those who die as unbelievers, however, will have a more uncomfortable situation on their hands at first. They also will be in the presence of Christ, but, because they're not thrilled with Him at that point, it will not be, for them, all happy-happy-joy-joy. That right there could qualify as "hell" in their situation.

However, here's how it seems to play out:

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 says

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Add to this 1 Tim 4:10 where it says that God is the Savior of all men especially (not "exclusively") of those who believe, and it seems that there's a particular order in the way He's going about this.

Those who have not believed go to hell. They are called out of hell and judged and tossed into the lake of fire for eternity because they have not believed. Yet yall would have folks believe that He gets them out of what He says is for eternity even thoughthey have not believed?

Again, it is not "for eternity". It is for an age. No one gets out until they are made alive in Christ (you see that verse that constantly appears in my sig line?).

You would have someone base their eternal soul on something you don't know is going to take place and in which God's Word in NO WAY says is going to take place?

They base their eternal soul on the finished work of Jesus's atonement on the cross. What else is there to save us?

Do you tell folks that they will go to hell for a while, then get tossed into a burning lake of sulphur for a while, and then somewhere down the road, even though you have not believed in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, He's gonna pull you out of that eternal fire. His Word doesn't say that He will, but yall want folks to go through hell and a burning lake believing that He's gonna do something contrary to His Word and His Character? Shameful.

It's shameful that you apparently have not been paying the least bit of attention to what's been said to you on this matter.

It's also shameful that someone who has an apparent heart for the lost and who believes in an eternal hell would, in spite of those convictions, sit and argue online with people whom one has already decided to disagree with, when one could be out there spreading the Good News before someone roasts in Hell forever because one failed to tell them (because one was busy arguing online).

Which touches on a whole other can of worms ... Those who do believe in an eternal hell don't live as if they do.

______________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Zaac · Jan 24, 2008

Zecryphon said:
Zaac, where are the scriptures that support we have freewill when it comes to salvation?

I'm referring to freewill to accept it or reject it when offered. I'm not saying that we can choose or orchestrate in any way to save ourselves.

God would have all to be saved. But not all want to be saved by Him.

How many times have you heard folks say "if that's the God you serve, then I don't want to be saved" because they disagree with His Judgment?

Zaac · Jan 24, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
This is pure twisting of God's word to suit your own sensibilities. Have you ever taken God at His word--in context, ever?

That's exactly what it is. And this is what just really grates at me is that if you're maintaining the integrity of God's Word, it is OBVIOUS that this is twisting the Scripture.

Whenever people have to go to these lengths to make proposed doctrine true, all should beware.

Crazy Liz · Jan 24, 2008

Zaac said:
Because they confessed their sin and repented. That is the exact same thing that He is asking of men now. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and like the Ninevites, you won't be taken to death and destruction.

That's the mercy that Chaela spoke of.

Man today has been extended that same mercy. But once death comes, that is it because judgment is upon you. That's why men have to choose to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior while they are living.

Once you're dead and judgment has come, it's too late.

According to Jonah's announcement, it was already too late for Nineveh. Have you read chapters 3 and 4? Half the book is about Jonah getting mad that God was merciful instead of doing what God said God was going to do. The other half was the background how Jonah got there.

It is in God's nature to be more merciful than the messages God sends through prophets. That is the lesson of Jonah: Don't be mad at God for being merciful, even beyond what God sent you to announce.

If you want to use Jonah as an argument against preaching universalism, I think the argument is God gave Jonah a message to deliever, which Jonah had to deliver, even though he knew God was not going to do what the message said God would do. Jonah was obedient in giving the message God gave, rather than saying what he knew would really happen. What's with that?

How do we wrestle with that aspect of God?

Does God expect us to tell the truth as we know it, or to deliver the message delivered to us, even at the expense of our own reputation, credibility and knowledge about God's nature?

That's a tough question to face on the basis of Jonah, and one that might be worth discussing among the groups who are arguing here.

Crazy Liz · Jan 24, 2008

Zaac said:
I'm referring to freewill to accept it or reject it when offered. I'm not saying that we can choose or orchestrate in any way to save ourselves.

God would have all to be saved. But not all want to be saved by Him.

How many times have you heard folks say "if that's the God you serve, then I don't want to be saved" because they disagree with His Judgment?

See, that question can be asked from another perspective:

Who was Jonah to disagree with God's mercy?

Rajni · Jan 24, 2008

Okay, for the time being let's assume what you say is true and the Lake of Fire is not eternal but lasts only for an age. What is the duration of an age and where are the scriptures supporting that duration?

The duration, though limited, can vary. Many of the things that are said to have lasted "forever" in English did not. For instance:

Jonah was in hell [Hebrew: Sheol] (verse 2:2) in the fish's belly forever [Hebrew olam / Greek aionios], and was brought out of there by God in three days.

Three days isn't forever. It was for a limited duration. It may have felt like "forever," though!

Other examples are:

Christs reign will end once death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

Sodom's fiery judgment is said to be "eternal" (Jude 7) until God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).

Ammon is to become a wasteland "forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27) --until the Lord restores the Ammonites' fortunes. (Jer. 49:6).

Ammonites and Moabites were not permitted to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"... until the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk mentions "everlasting" mountains that were ultimately shattered. (Habakkuk 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was going to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), until it got O.B.E.'d by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting" covenant (Leviticus 24:8), only to be done away with and abolished (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), when God made the first one obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) was never to be extinguished until Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.

Israel's judgment lasts "forever" ... until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

These are some examples of how such English words as "forever", "everlasting", and "eternal" were put where the original language meant no such thing.

______________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Crazy Liz · Jan 24, 2008

Zaac said:
Ungh ungh. Faith is based in those things that God has told us to be true. As God has not said anything about there being a reprieve from the Lake of Fire, yall just guessing. That ain't got nothing to do with no faith.

Actually, it does. The same kind of faith Jonah had. His confidence that God is merciful, and will show mercy when people repent, even when God has given a prophet an unconditional message of destruction.

I think you are more interested in faithfulness to the message given to the prophets, and that is also a legitimate point, according to Jonah.

But Jonah is pretty clear they are not both the same thing.

Rajni · Jan 24, 2008

Zecryphon said:
"You WILL get out down the road somewhere."

Great. Where's the scriptural support for this statement?

Here are just a few Scriptures. This is just Part I, since it goes beyond the character-limit for posts. I'll put Part II in a separate post:

Gen 12:3 And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Gen 22:18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. [This promise is repeated over and over throughout scripture.]

Num 14:20 So the Lord said [speaking to Moses, who is a foretype of Christ as our intercessor], "I have pardoned them according to your word; but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord."

II Sam14:14 For we shall surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one may not be cast out from him.

I Kings 8:43 Hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to Thee, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as do Thy people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I [Solomon] have built is called by Thy name.

I Kings 8:60 So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else.

II Kings19:19 That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, O Lord, art God.

I Chron 16:34 O give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; For His mercy (lovingkindness, NAS) endureth forever.

II Chron 20;21 Give thanks to the Lord, for His mercy endureth forever.

Ps 9:7-8 But the Lord abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment, and He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute (minister, KJ) judgment for [not against] the peoples with equity.

Ps 22:27-30 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. For the kingdom is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations. All the proud [literally, "fat ones"] of the earth will eat and worship, even he who cannot keep his soul alive. Posterity will serve Him.

Ps 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning.

Ps 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

Ps 46:10 Cease striving [be still] and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations; I will be exalted in the earth.

Ps 65:2,5 To Thee all men [lit. all flesh] come...Thou who art the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea.

Ps 66:1,4 Shout joyfully to God, all the earth...All the earth will worship Thee, and will sing praises to Thee; they will sing praises to Thy name.

Ps 67:1-7 God be gracious to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that Thy way may be known on the earth, Thy salvation among all nations...Let all the peoples praise Thee. Let the nations be glad...for Thou wilt judge the peoples with uprightness, and guide the nations on the earth...that all the ends of the earth may fear Him.

Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captive Thy captives; Thou hast given gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there.

Ps 69:34 Let heaven and earth praise Him, the seas and everything that moves in them.

Ps 72:8-19 May He also rule from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth...and let all kings bow down before Him, all nations serve Him...Let all nations call Him blessed...And may the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen and Amen.

Ps 86:9 All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify Thy name.

Ps 96:1-12 Sing to the Lord, all the earth...His wonderful deeds among all the peoples...Tremble before Him, all the earth...Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy before the Lord, for He is coming...

Ps 98:3,4 All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth; break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.

Ps 145:9-10 The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works. All Thy works shall give thanks to Thee, O Lord, and Thy godly ones shall bless Thee.

Ps 145:14-16 The Lord sustains all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to Thee, and Thou dost give them their food in due time. Thou dost open Thy hand, and dost satisfy the desire of every living thing.

Ps 145:21 And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

Ps 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!

Is 19:21 Thus the Lord will make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the Lord and perform it.

Is 19:22 And the Lord will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

Is 25:6-8 And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain [Mount Zion]...and on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations. He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces.

Is 26:9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Is 40:5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Is 45:22-23 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Is 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

Is 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.

Is 66:23 All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord.

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

Micah 4:6-7 "In that day," declares the Lord, "I will assemble the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcasts a strong nation, and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.

Micah 7:18-19 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.

To Be Continued ....

______________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Zaac · Jan 24, 2008

chaela said:
Nope. It caused a pretty amazing attitude adjustment in me in that regard. People tend to behave like the god they worship. Therefore, if God is forgiving enough to forgive everyone, and we are called to be like Him, then we tend to be far more forgiving than if we believed He had a saturation point at which He just threw in the towel on some people.

But He does throw in the towel. If after time and time again folks hearts have hardened and they will not accept Him, He will do as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah. He will do as He did with the people in Noah's day. And He does the same with does who die in their trespasses.

If the hearts of some are soo hardened that they do not want to be in relationship with Him, He is not going to force them to be.

So you're absolutely sure that there is a sin that Christ Himself could not atone for? I don't think I could be so bold as to say that, but that's just me.

I'm so bold as to say because I'm repeating what the Word of God says.

The WOrd of God says in Matthew 12:31 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men

You blaspheme against the Holy SPirit by rejecting the truth of Jesus Christ delivered by the Holy Spirit. If you do not accept Him as Lord and Savior, there is no forgiveness of your sin because you have not asked to be forgiven and shown a hearts desire for forgiveness by accepting the One Who is the Truth.

A man dead in his transgressions cannot accept anything. Like salvation, faith itself is a gift of God. Therefore, if He bestows that gift on someone, they will receive it. He is not only the Finisher of our faith, He is also the Author of it. If He begins a good work in someone, He will bring it to completion.

If a man has repented and been forgiven of his transgressions, he may.

He doesn't bestow the gift on anyone who has not made the decision to accept it. God does not go around forcing people to love Him.

For all eternity" is not in the original language God used to convey this message. So I guess we're even there, LOL!

Umm, no. All eternity /all ages. he doesn't say anything about there being a reprieve.

For all eternity" is not in the original language God used to convey this message.
He was thrown in to the Lake of Fire for how long?

Doesn't matter. God's Word doesn't show God offering a reprieve from the lake of fire.

You believe the Scriptures originated in English?? Now, would you please explain why you are calling God a liar? Doesn't He have the right to do what He wants with His own creation?

I'm calling that which contradicts His Word, universal redemption, a lie.

Do you read all of the Word in Hebrew/Aramaic/ Greek? If not, your exegesis of one word means nothing because you have taken it out of the context of the FULL COUNSEL of the Word.

It's not confusing. Not all confusion is of the debil. Sometimes it's simply an indicator that more research is in order. It would probably be far easier for you to do some research than simply dispute, but that depends on whether one is seeking understanding or simply argument.

If its not of God it is indeed of the debbil. And confusion is of the debbil. There's no need to research any more when the Holy Spirit has delivered the truth that a doctrine is not of God.

"One or two"? Now I really have to wonder if you have even been listening, lol

Of course I have been.

I'm not sure how constructive it is to accuse someone of selling a lie when it is simply a matter of not understanding what's being said. Listen closely: All ultimately will be saved. Not everyone is "on board" yet. If you are already in Christ, then you will be in His presence (in the happy-happy-joy-joy kind of way that evangelicals have come to understand) when you die. Those who die as unbelievers, however, will have a more uncomfortable situation on their hands at first. They also will be in the presence of Christ, but, because they're not thrilled with Him at that point, it will not be, for them, all happy-happy-joy-joy. That right there could qualify as "hell" in their situation

Now see. You need to straight stop. The Word of God says they are in hell so how you suddenly gonna put them in the presence of Christ? How do you continue to undo Scripture?

Again, it is not "for eternity". It is for an age. No one gets out until they are made alive in Christ (you see that verse that constantly appears in my sig line?).

Again, show me in God's Word where He tells you that there is a reprieve from His final judgment.

They base their eternal soul on the finished work of Jesus's atonement on the cross. What else is there to save us?

THEY have been through final judgment and tossed into the lake of fire. Apparently they DID NOT base their eternal soul on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.

At what point did they supposedly do this? They died and went to hell so it wasn't before that. They are called from hell into judgment before the Great White Throne of Judgment, so they obviously didn't trust in Christ while in hell.

At the Great White Throne of Judgment they are tossed into the lake of fire so they obviously don't make a declaration for Christ during final judgment.

So at what point do you have Biblical reason to say that they get another opportunity after God has passed final judgment?

It's shameful that you apparently have not been paying the least bit of attention to what's been said to you on this matter.

Oh I have. And the more yall tlk about it , the more it starts to sound like a cult belief.

It's also shameful that someone who has an apparent heart for the lost and who believes in an eternal hell would, in spite of those convictions, sit and argue online with people whom one has already decided to disagree with, when one could be out there spreading the Good News before someone roasts in Hell forever because one failed to tell them (because one was busy arguing online).

Whose arguing with you? I've flat out told you that universal redemption is a lie. And exposing this false doctrine for what it is will serve God's purpose as His Word does not return void.

Which touches on a whole other can of worms ... Those who do believe in an eternal hell don't live as if they do.

Come follow me around at work some day and listen to what is being said. follow me from forum to forum on here and see what is being said.

I preach and teach the saving grace of Jesus Christ. And I cannot preach of His love without preaching of His Judgment. And He will indeed righteously judge those who have not accepted His Son as Lord and Savior, and in accordance with what His Word DOES say, they will be tossed into the lake of fire with death, satan and the false prophet for all eternity.

Rajni · Jan 24, 2008

Zecryphon said:
"You WILL get out down the road somewhere."

Great. Where's the scriptural support for this statement?

Here are more Scriptures supporting it:

Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Zeph 2:11 The Lord will be terrifying to them, for He will starve all the gods of the earth; and all the coastlands of the nations will bow down to Him, every one from his own place.

Zeph 3:8-9 Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

Hag 2:6-9 For thus says the Lord of hosts, "Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. And I will shake all the nations; and they will come [or, the Desire of all nations will come] with the wealth of the nations; and I will fill this house with glory," says the Lord of hosts. "The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine," declares the Lord of hosts. "The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former," says the Lord of hosts, "and in this place I shall give peace," declares the Lord of hosts.

Zech 2:10-11 Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, declares the Lord. And many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.

Zech 9:10 And He will speak peace to the nations; and His dominion will be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts.

Mal 2:10 Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us?

Mt 18:12,14 What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Lk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

Lk 15:4-7 What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing... I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Lk 23:34 Jesus said, "Father forgive them; they know not what they do."

Jn 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Jn 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.

Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

Acts 3;20-21 And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Rom 5:18-20 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more!

Rom 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.

Rom 11:32,33 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Rom 11;36 For from Him [Christ] and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:11 For as it is written, "As I live", says the Lord, "every knee shall bow to me [ie. repentance], and every tongue shall give praise to God". [ie. worship]

I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]

I Cor 13:8 Love never fails.

I Cor 15:22,28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."

To Be Continued ...

______________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Rajni · Jan 24, 2008

Zecryphon said:
"You WILL get out down the road somewhere."

Great. Where's the scriptural support for this statement?

This should just about cover it:

I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

Col 3:11 Christ is all, and in all.

I Tim 1:13 Even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor, yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief.

I Tim 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I [Paul] am foremost.

I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.

I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Heb 1:2 In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.

Heb 9:26 But now once at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah...

I Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that even though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (see I Cor 5:5)

II Pet 3:8,9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [literally "not purposing", from the Greek: boulema, "predetermined purpose"] that any should perish but for all to come to repentance.

I John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation [ie., satisfaction or appeasement] for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Rev 15:3,4 And they sang the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the Nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

______________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Zaac · Jan 24, 2008

Crazy Liz said:
According to Jonah's announcement, it was already too late for Nineveh. Have you read chapters 3 and 4? Half the book is about Jonah getting mad that God was merciful instead of doing what God said God was going to do. The other half was the background how Jonah got there.

It is in God's nature to be more merciful than the messages God sends through prophets. That is the lesson of Jonah: Don't be mad at God for being merciful, even beyond what God sent you to announce.

If you want to use Jonah as an argument against preaching universalism, I think the argument is God gave Jonah a message to deliever, which Jonah had to deliver, even though he knew God was not going to do what the message said God would do. Jonah was obedient in giving the message God gave, rather than saying what he knew would really happen. What's with that?

How do we wrestle with that aspect of God?

Does God expect us to tell the truth as we know it, or to deliver the message delivered to us, even at the expense of our own reputation, credibility and knowledge about God's nature?

That's a tough question to face on the basis of Jonah, and one that might be worth discussing among the groups who are arguing here.

Jonah knew of God's compassion and His mercy. It was not his place as a prophet of God to deliver anything that God had not said to deliver. If he had, he would not have been a prophet.

Likewise from the same perspective we don't have any right to deliver that other than what God has given. ANd God's Word doesn't say anything about there being a reprieve from the lake of fire after FINAL judgment.

The Ninevites were still breathing and could repent. Once dead, judgment takes place because God's Word says so. The time for repentance has passed. If you die in your trespasses, you will spend an eternity dead in thoese trespasses.

Zaac · Jan 24, 2008

Crazy Liz said:
Actually, it does. The same kind of faith Jonah had. His confidence that God is merciful, and will show mercy when people repent, even when God has given a prophet an unconditional message of destruction.

Because that is consistent with God's character and what He has done in the past. At no point in His Word does God give any indication that there is repentance after death. Why? Because judgment has already occurred at this point and if there is not repentace before death, it's too late after death.

He offered the same opportunity to Sodom. yet there was not a single righteous person there who would call upon the name of the Lord in repentance. Sodom was duly destroyed.

God is merciful up unto the point where it goes against His Word to be merciful.

And rendering mercy after death for those who have chosen to reject Him goes against His Word. The judgment occurs at death and there is no reprieve from it.

I think you are more interested in faithfulness to the message given to the prophets, and that is also a legitimate point, according to Jonah.

Absolutely. We are to deliver the message that God has delivered. And He has not delivered a message that there is a reprieve from the lake of fire.

Again, the Ninevites were extended the same arm of mercy as were the Sodomites while they were alive. The Ninevites availed themselves of God's mercy while they were alive and could. The Sodomites did not and now they are all in hell. And they will unfortunately spend an eternity in the lake of fire because they did not do what they needed to do while they were alive and given the chance.

Rajni · Jan 24, 2008

If the hearts of some are soo hardened that they do not want to be in relationship with Him, He is not going to force them to be.

See, what I don't get with such statements is that it's made to sound like God is doing people a favor by sending them to Hell. What's up with that?

Do you read all of the Word in Hebrew/Aramaic/ Greek? If not, your exegesis of one word means nothing because you have taken it out of the context of the FULL COUNSEL of the Word.

How do you imagine the Hebrew/Greek of one word affects the rest of Scripture in Hebrew/Greek?

If its not of God it is indeed of the debbil. And confusion is of the debbil. There's no need to research any more when the Holy Spirit has delivered the truth that a doctrine is not of God.

Then perhaps there should be a resident exorcist at each and every Algebra class, because that's confusing!

The Word of God says they are in hell so how you suddenly gonna put them in the presence of Christ? How do you continue to undo Scripture?

Where can a person go where the Lord isn't? Doesn't Psalms deal with that whole thing?

Again, show me in God's Word where He tells you that there is a reprieve from His final judgment.

I just posted 3 posts full of verses, so be sure to check them out.

And the more yall talk about it , the more it starts to sound like a cult belief.

Calling it a cult does make it easier to simply write off without further investigation.

And I cannot preach of His love without preaching of His Judgment.

Scripture says that we love Him because He first loved us. Suggesting that it is Love -- not threats -- which is the motivating factor behind one's relationship with the Lord. Threats are the Pagan gods' area of expertise, and where the doctrine of Hell came from.

______________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Crazy Liz · Jan 24, 2008

Zaac said:
Because that is consistent with God's character and what He has done in the past.

I agree.

At no point in His Word does God give any indication that there is repentance after death.

I agree.

Why?

I don't know.

For the same reason God never gave Nineveh any indication that there was repentance?

Because judgment has already occurred at this point and if there is not repentace before death, it's too late after death.

Now you are speculating.

He offered the same opportunity to Sodom.

Really? How do you know?

I think you are speculating again. I don't recall anything in the Bible saying the people of Sodom had any warning.

yet there was not a single righteous person there who would call upon the name of the Lord in repentance. Sodom was duly destroyed.

God is merciful up unto the point where it goes against His Word to be merciful.

It went against God's word to be merciful to the Ninevites.

And rendering mercy after death for those who have chosen to reject Him goes against His Word.

As did rendering mercy to the Ninevites.

The judgment occurs at death and there is no reprieve from it.

As far as the Bible tells us.

Well, not exactly AT death, but AFTER. There are some intervening events, including their resurrection, and apparently some worship where every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

Absolutely. We are to deliver the message that God has delivered. And He has not delivered a message that there is a reprieve from the lake of fire.

And there is, for the universalists, the dilemma of the prophet Jonah.

Again, the Ninevites were extended the same arm of mercy as were the Sodomites while they were alive.

Can you tell me where the Sodomites were extended an arm of mercy?

If such an opportunity is necessary to your argument, I think you can only argue from silence, as you have roundly criticized the universalists for doing.

The Ninevites availed themselves of God's mercy while they were alive and could. The Sodomites did not and now they are all in hell. And they will unfortunately spend an eternity in the lake of fire because they did not do what they needed to do while they were alive and given the chance.

I think you are speculating here, again.

Zaac · Jan 24, 2008

chaela said:
See, what I don't get with such statements is that it's made to sound like God is doing people a favor by sending them to Hell. What's up with that?

On the contrary. He's sending them to a place that He has set aside for those who do not want to be in relationship with Him.

God wants to walk with His Children as He did with Adam and Eve in the Garden. In order to do so, sin and those still mired in their sin must have a place of eternal separation from Him and those washed in the blood of the Lamb.

A Holy God does not dwell with that which is UNHOLY.

How do you imagine the Hebrew/Greek of one word affects the rest of Scripture in Hebrew/Greek?

My focus in seminary was Biblical Languages. I know how translating one word while not translating the rest the same way distorts what the Word says.

So unless you are giving me the accompanying Hebrew/Greek for the Scripture so that the context can be seen in that language, it is poor theology to present varied meanings and word studies.

I say again, word studies and exegesis are for better understanding what God says, not proving that HE says something else.

Doesn't Psalms deal with that whole thing?

He's not in the grave and he's not gonna be in the lake of fire. Again, a HOLY GOD doesn't dwell with unHOLINESS.

I just posted 3 posts full of verses, so be sure to check them out.

I tell you what. I'll read it all if you tell me why every verse is pertinent.

Calling it a cult does make it easier to simply write off without further investigation.

Hey it just sounds a lot like the way the JWs and the Mormons change doctrine and created their own lil thang.

Scripture says that we love Him because He first loved us. Suggesting that it is Love -- not threats -- which is the motivating factor behind one's relationship with the Lord. Threats are the Pagan gods' area of expertise, and where the doctrine of Hell came from.

Jesus Christ spoke of hell plenty of times. Is He a pagan God?

Floatingaxe · Jan 24, 2008

chaela said:
He was thrown in to the Lake of Fire for how long?

What right has anyone to ask such a question, expecting an answer other than forever? The important thing is to make sure you aen't going there, and bring others with you.

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