Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Whose paraphrase is that? It's sure different from the traditional interpretation.
I think "vessels of dishonor" probably means something more like a chamber pot than a pot for cooking beans - at least that's the way I've heard it interpreted before.
Would you like to study this passage?
Interesting, though, if God doesn't make "vessels of wrath" destined for eternal torment in hell, then I wonder what relevance your interpretation has, either for or against Ultimate Reconciliation. Is that something worth looking into?
Well, that's a novel interpretation. Thanks for explaining it. Perhaps now you understand why your statements made no sense to me, as I had never heard this interpretation before.Those vessels os wrath are believers who are anointed to preach the heavier messages of judgment and God's mercy over suffering and injustice by their lives. It has nothing to do with Universalism...at least nothing to lend to your argument for it.
Well, that's a novel interpretation. Thanks for explaining it. Perhaps now you understand why your statements made no sense to me, as I had never heard this interpretation before.
One thing I have noticed is that Christian Doctrines are acualy in opposition to the word of God....you can take things to extremes ofcourse, but in general you will find that if you do the opposite of what Christian Doctrines teach...you will have right standing with God.
Yeah, this guy apparently doesn't know what a doctrine is and that Christ taught plenty of His own.I got to this sentence:
..and I just can't get past the inanity of it. I won't be reading the remainder. It's just a waste of my time.
Universalism basicly just recognises the Soveriegn power and will of God...
One thing I have noticed is that Christian Doctrines are acualy in opposition to the word of God....you can take things to extremes ofcourse, but in general you will find that if you do the opposite of what Christian Doctrines teach...you will have right standing with God.
Example in another thread I have seen written that it is a Christian Doctrine to have water Baptism before you attain right standing with God....yet scripture says you are saved by Grace through faith and not of yourselves lest any many should boast...
In yet another thread I have seen that it is an alledged Christian Doctrine that you have to choose of your own free will to believe in Jesus or you are not saved...yet scripture says it is not about the man who wills or the man who runs but of God who has mercy.
That nobody should boast before God, that it is by his doing you are in Christ Jesus, that nobody can come to the son unless drawn by the Father who sent him.
Even worse I have seen it suggested that there is one God and one mediator between God and Man the man Christ Jesus who only gave himself as a ransom for only some to be testified in due time.
and it goes on and on....
What Universalists have been made aware of by God...because only God can do that revealing....is what actualy happened at the Cross, and just how big that happening was.
To give you an insight....what actualy happened at the Cross will overwhelm the fate of all human kind....in Gods time not ours...it is his time table.
Not many people truly understand, just what a unique understanding that is to have in todays religiouse world.
We are no more loved by God than any other person, scripture even says the spirit distributes to each individualy just as he wills....so we just accept the fact that we are not special...it was Gods choosing to reveal what we know to us as individuals.
We are not concerned by those who dis agree with us at all....we just explain as best we can.
We know the Good News of The Gospel !
Peace
One thing I have noticed is that Christian Doctrines are acualy in opposition to the word of God....
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 probably gives the clearest forecast:The Bible says 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28 Can a universalist tell me what is gonna happen at this judgment? Why are we still being judged if all are saved or will be saved?
Since mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13), can we really assume that judgment automatically negates salvation in the end?What about the Great White Throne of judgment?
The Bible says 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:11-15 Why is all this judging taking place if everyone is already saved or will be saved? If it is apointed once to man to die, and then the judgment, and then at the final judgment those who have died and gone to hell are tossed into the lake of fire, as Nadiine asked before, when are they getting out? How are those being saved?
Since mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13), can we really assume that judgment automatically negates salvation in the end
Exactly. Therefore, since mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13), and salvation cannot be negated, we cannot assume that salvation does not come at all to those still in need of it.
"Never had" salvation. Not "never will have" it.
Exactly. Therefore, since mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13),
and salvation cannot be negated, we cannot assume that salvation does not come at all to those still in need of it.
Never had" salvation. Not "never will have" it.
It sounds alot to me like the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, with the main difference being that Catholics know how long each sin they've committed will keep them in Purgatory. Universalists don't have this knowledge nor do they claim to. It's all very vague and that is not reassuring in the least.You keep mentioning James 2:13. The Scripture says 12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
It again speaks to being judged by the law. If all are saved, there is no need to judge. And it speaks to reaping what you have sown. If you have been merciful, YOU will be judged mercifully.
But there cannot be mercy for that which is unforgiveable. If there were mercy for the unforgiveable, then God would not be JUST.
We don't have to assume anything. Does God's Word tell us that He is extending mercy to those who are in hell? NO. Rather His Word shows that He gives JUSTICE.
It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment.
His Word says nothing about mercy after this judgment. If there were mercy extended after this judgment, they wouldn't have been in hell in the first place.
From hell they are taken before the Great White Throne of Judgment and tossed into the lake of fire for eternity.
If there were going to be mercy somewhere in between judgment and hell and judgment and the lake of fire, don't you think God's Word would have said so?
On eof the principles of God's Word that runs from start to finish is the principle of Hope brought about by Jesus Christ and how trusting in Him would bring eternal life.
Again, it is appointed once unto a man to die and then the JUDGMENT. Not an extension of mercy, but judgment based upon what was done in LIFE.
The mercy that triumphed over judgment is that He gave His Son so that we may STILL have everlasting life when we deserved to be destroyed because of our sin.
Then let me ask again. At what point of being tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity will they have the opportunity for this salvation?
And exactly how do universalist witness to folks about this? I can see it now, "Well, you're gonna have to go to hell for a while, and then you're gonna be taken out of the torment of hell and brought before the Great White Throne of Judgment where you will then be thrown into the lake of fire where there will be gnashing of teeth and a worm that NEVER dies, and then somewhere down the line of eternity( I don't know when), you'll be extended mercy and let out of the lake of fire that God's Word says is for eternity."
So Floating Axe....your Church does teach that God made peace through the blood of the Cross reconciling all things to himself ?
All things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
It was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Christ, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven (Colossians 1:19-20).
Okay, for the time being let's assume what you say is true and the Lake of Fire is not eternal but lasts only for an age. What is the duration of an age and where are the scriptures supporting that duration?
Judged by the law "that gives Freedom". Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Freedom. I see this as saying that just as mercy was shown the believer, the believer should show this same mercy toward others, as mercy is more powerful (it triumphs over judgment).
What makes you say that? Judgment takes place with believers as well.
I agree we reap what we sow, and God treats us the way we treat others. So imagine how He must treat those of us who sincerely desire -- as He does -- the salvation of all. Believing in the ultimate salvation of everyone around me has dramatically increased my desire to treat them mercifully. Previously, one of the less admirable reasons I couldn't wait for the rapture was so that we could get the hell outta here and watch the unbelievers get their butts kicked from a safe distance. Not so merciful, that, lol!
What sin was Christ's death not powerful enough to atone for?
He empties them out of it, doesn't He?
His word says nothing about there not being mercy after this judgment.
Hell is simply the grave. Of course there's mercy after that!
They are tossed into the Lake of Fire for an age. Not endlessly. The Scriptures did not originate in King James English.
With all the ways Scripture already indicates that everyone sees salvation, what more are you looking for?
When God's ready to give it to them, just as He does with anyone. Could anyone say, just by looking at you, at what point God would grant you His salvation? No. Does one's inability to predict when that moment would occur mean that He wasn't ever going to do it? No. Would someone who was relying on that question's being answered to their satisfaction use it's very unanswerability as an excuse not to believe it would ever happen? You bet.
Well, first off, we don't know who is and who isn't going to die unsaved. So telling them what you've outlined above is moot.
God's word doesn't say that the LOF is for eternity. It says it is for an age. Remember, God didn't have the Scriptures penned in King James English.
__________________________________________________"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." ~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?