Universalism in our Daily Lives

[HSong]

Hi everyone! Here's a thread where you can talk about how Universalism has appeared in your daily lives. It could be at work, at the grocery store or anywhere that you travel about to.

This is a post from the Tentmaker site that I posted on September 3rd, and I believe fits the topic of this thread well.

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Hi. I was just shopping for some clothes with my family. At the store in the mall, I noticed a shirt with a Bible verse on it that reminded me of Universal Reconciliation. It was a white shirt with a pink butterfly in the middle and black text surrounding it with the verse

Psalm 17:8 Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings

It shows how God is watching over every one of us and is willing to protect us all. If He loves us that much, then He will make sure all of us are saved through Jesus Christ.

Almost out of fate, as soon as I typed that verse down on my phone, I saw another Bible verse on clothing. It was a black shirt with white text in a cursive font with the following verse

Psalm 106:3 Blessed are those who act justly, who always do what is right.

If those who act justly are blessed, imagine how much more blessed The Lord is, who acts justly in all things. Considering this, I believe God should have what God desires, that's what a blessing entails after all. And God's desire is to have everyone saved. Even though all of humanity are sinners, we have not done right under the Lord, the Lord himself has done right, He acts justly, and therefore deserves to bless himself so that his desire, to have everyone saved, is fulfilled.
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And to add a more recent experience from this past week, I was out at a public area and saw a group panel in blue advertising to people to "know Jesus". I didn't catch what group they were affiliated, as I was in a hurry to attend an obligation, but I believe with day-to-day evangelism like that, I personally think it's much more convincing to win people over through Universalism, because I believe it's a more accurate portrayal of the Lord's love to all creation. Rather than worrying about the fate of their souls, soulwinners can rest assured that their victory is guaranteed. That no matter what, all people will eventually full trust in Jesus Christ as their savior. And that's the ultimate victory that the Lord has ordained for Himself.

Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced His perfect love. (1 John 4:18)

 

[RileyG]

I would say whenever someone dies, people automatically comment "heaven has gained another angel." OR so and so has entered heaven. No comments about judgment, or hell, or salvation.

 

[Blade]

I would say whenever someone dies, people automatically comment "heaven has gained another angel." OR so and so has entered heaven. No comments about judgment, or hell, or salvation.

It seems some have tossed out the word of God. "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness...............whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord. " 2nd Peter.

The op said this " I personally think it's much more convincing to win people over through Universalism, because I believe it's a more accurate portrayal of the Lord's love to all creation"

I like and never quote what this site says
"
Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved. There are many people today who hold to universal salvation and believe that all people eventually end up in heaven. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment in hell that causes some to reject the teaching of Scripture on this issue. For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God—and the neglect of the righteousness and justice of God—that leads them to believe God will have mercy on every living soul. But the Scriptures do teach that some people will spend eternity in hell.

First of all, the Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

How does one avoid this unquenchable fire? Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf."

 

[Saint Steven]

... There are many people today who hold to universal salvation and believe that all people eventually end up in heaven. ...

Christian Universalism isn't a new idea created as an emotional response to the horror of a loving God behaving like a sadistic cosmic tyrant. It was a commonly held belief in the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

 

[Saint Steven]

... With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. ...

You probably shouldn't make proclamations about UR until you actually understand it. Better to stay quiet and let people assume you are ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Christian Universalism isn't a new idea created as an emotional response to the horror of a loving God behaving like a sadistic cosmic tyrant. It was a commonly held belief in the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."​

This is a regular quote from Schaff-Herzog by proponents of UR. The problem is the authors never provide any historical evidence to support the claims. No, zero, none. What is written above is all the authors' ever say about it. Don't believe me here is a link.
Link: Philip Schaff: Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia Vol. : 0120=96 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.

— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

I don't know about the above information but in the below quote Ramelli out and out lies about what Origen said.

But even the aiónes will come to an end, Origen tells us: “After aiónios life a leap will take place and all will pass from the aeons to the Father, who is beyond aiónios life. For Christ is Life, but the Father, who is ‘greater than Christ,’ is greater than life” (Comm. in Io 13.3; quoted in Ramelli, p. 160).

Link:
Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope
Here is what Origen really said.

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20 Pg. 23
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, p. 81). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

 

[Der Alte]

Hi everyone! ***
Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced His perfect love. (1 John 4:18)

The Greek word translated "punishment" above is "kolasis." Concerning the word "kolasis".

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” Sorry, that is impossible both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[FineLinen]

It seems some have tossed out the word of God. "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness...............whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord. " 2nd Peter.

The op said this " I personally think it's much more convincing to win people over through Universalism, because I believe it's a more accurate portrayal of the Lord's love to all creation"

I like and never quote what this site says
"
Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved. There are many people today who hold to universal salvation and believe that all people eventually end up in heaven. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment in hell that causes some to reject the teaching of Scripture on this issue. For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God—and the neglect of the righteousness and justice of God—that leads them to believe God will have mercy on every living soul. But the Scriptures do teach that some people will spend eternity in hell.

First of all, the Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

How does one avoid this unquenchable fire? Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf."

 

[FineLinen]

"For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God."

It is possible to underestimate the exceedingly great and wonderful Father ABBA who reaches to the lowest hell to pursue every one of us!

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.

 

[FineLinen]

"For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God."

It is possible to underestimate the exceedingly great and wonderful Father ABBA who reaches to the lowest hell to pursue every one of us!

Underestimate =

1. To make too low an estimate of the quantity, degree, or worth.
2. To consider (someone) to be less capable or effective than is actually the case.
3. To set too low a value on; to estimate below the truth.

 

[Der Alte]

...

"For some it is an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God."
It is possible to underestimate the exceedingly great and wonderful Father ABBA who reaches to the lowest hell to pursue every one of us!
The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.

While it is true "The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases." There is not one verse which states that "ABBA...reaches to the lowest hell to pursue every one of us!"
ETA: I suddenly laughed out loud, thinking about this post. Many UR-ites don't believe that hell even exists. And those that do, believe it is only temporary. If it does not exist how can God go there? If it is temporary, why would God have to go to the deepest hell and pursue anyone?

 

[FineLinen]

 

[Der Alte]

...

Very inspiring meme which only applies in this life. I know because Jesus, Himself, said so.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Note, Jesus did not say "Everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus said, "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." Then He said many, not a few, would brag about all the good things they claim that they had done. But Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." When Jesus says "never" He means "never," not "someday by and by."

 

[HSong]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone, I appreciate the conversation so far. I am interested in hearing more of stories of people on this forum.

Hmm... speaking of life stories. It reminds me of this verse.

Romans 14:8 “For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.”

I think, no matter what your life is, the Lord can use it in a way that serves His will. Just within this week, I met with a person I knew a long time ago who attends a Mennonite church while shopping at the mall with my family. It was just after we had gotten our doctor appointment and had gotten our blood checked.

The last time I met him, even though I was Christian, was when I hadn't discovered Universalism before. So, it's been many years, a long time for sure.

As for me personally, I'm not so denomination specific anymore. It's hard to tell if someone in a specific denomination believes in the salvation of everyone or not, so I try not to judge someone immediately on what they label themselves as. The most important things are if they a) believe in Jesus through faith alone to be saved and b) if they believe everyone will be saved.

Now the conversation of religion did not appear when I talked to them. It was mostly a quick "Hey, I remember you", while we passed by, so not much time for any sort of conversation. I was tempted to sneak in a little "by the way did you know everyone goes to heaven?", but as I mentioned before, we really just walked by each other. In reality, I don't even know if they believe in Universal Salvation or not. But I believe that, even meetings like that, no matter how small, can still be used as a benefit to the Lord.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Hmm... speaking of life stories. It reminds me of this verse.

Romans 14:8 “For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.”​

I think, no matter what your life is, the Lord can use it in a way that serves His will....

This is true ONLY if you are the Lord's already.

Romans 14:1-2
(1) But him that is weak in faith receive ye, yet not for decision of scruples.
(2) One man hath faith to eat all things: but he that is weak eateth herbs.
Romans 14:4
(4) Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.
Romans 14:8
(8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; or whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Romans 14:9
(9) For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:14
(14) I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself: save that to him who accounteth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:18
(18) For he that herein serveth Christ is well-pleasing to God, and approved of men.
Romans 14:22
(22) The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth.​

 

[David's Harp]

I try not to judge someone immediately on what they label themselves as. The most important things are if they a) believe in Jesus through faith alone to be saved and b) if they believe everyone will be saved.

Why is (b) one of the most important things? Did Jesus say "Ye must believe everyone will be saved"...?

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone, I appreciate the conversation so far. I am interested in hearing more of stories of people on this forum.

I learned about UR on this forum. I approached it with the usual narrow caricature, like most, at first.

Just prior to my introduction to UR, I had a sister-in-law who had made a statement that she couldn't believe in a God who would send people to hell. I didn't hear her say it, I only heard about it. The family was troubled by her declaration. I supplied the usual apologetics as a defense of hell.

It was troubling. How do you convince someone of the "reality" of hell without pushing them even further away? I put it on the back burner to give it more consideration. But honestly, every idea I had only sugar-coated the issue. Hell was like a blemish on the story of redemption.

Except for a few fire and brimstone preachers, the church had softened the issue by referring to it as "eternal separation from God". Letting the hearer define it however they liked.

Then a forum buddy wrote, "I don't believe in a forever burning hell." This was someone I had a lot of respect for. We had many beliefs in common and he knew his stuff. So I pressed him to tell me more.

He directed me to a topic on the forum about it. I had seen the topic title before but wasn't interested in it. I "knew" Universalism was wrong, so I dismissed it.

But at the prompting of my forum buddy I checked it out. Supposedly this was a Christian belief that didn't include a forever burning hell.

I entered the discussion and promptly made myself a real nuisance. If this was for real, I needed to have my questions answered. My buddy that sent me to the topic pulled me up short. He asked me to stop arguing, read a chapter from The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1 and then come back with some questions instead of rebuttals.

So I hit the books. This really helped me to begin to understand bit by bit. I also poured over the biblical support. When I read 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:10. "not only for ours", "especially of those who believe" ??? I had never noticed those phrases before, even though I had read the Bible cover-to-cover.

As I continued my studies, I began to see the holes in the rebuttals against UR. Armed with this wee bit of knowledge, I started answering the forum rebuttals against UR, which was surprising to anyone who was paying attention to me, even myself. The more I read, the more I knew. Before long I was happy to abandon the hell doctrine and embrace UR. I kept a notebook of useful info and rallied with other supporters of UR. Others appeared as I went along. We were all supportive of one another. Not the petty infighting we saw with others.

Soon after, I came to agree with the statement: "I'd rather be a Universalist and be wrong, than a Damnationist and be right."
cc: @Hillsage @FineLinen

 

[Saint Steven]

Why is (b) one of the most important things? Did Jesus say "Ye must believe everyone will be saved"...?

That's actually a good question. Thanks.
I'll let @HSong answer, but here's my two pence worth.

I was "saved" (evangelical term) before I embraced UR. So, I feel the same way about those who have not been led to understand it yet. When I meet them, I think, that was me five years ago. I embrace them as fellow believers until they convince me otherwise. UR makes good frosting, but it's not the cake.

HSong said: ↑
I try not to judge someone immediately on what they label themselves as. The most important things are if they a) believe in Jesus through faith alone to be saved and b) if they believe everyone will be saved.

 

[FineLinen]

Why is (b) one of the most important things? Did Jesus say "Ye must believe everyone will be saved"...?

The Lord Jesus Christ declares He will draw ALL mankind unto Himself. The word thelo means draw, drag off in power, and drag off in power.

Every passage of Scripture using this word came!

 

[Der Alte]

...

The Lord Jesus Christ declares He will draw ALL mankind unto Himself. The word thelo means draw, drag off in power, and drag off in power.
Every passage of Scripture using this word came!

Is that the same Jesus who said the following?

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
(22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
(23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’​

Note well; Jesus did NOT say everyone will be saved. Jesus said, "Not everyone ... will enter the kingdom of heaven." And when the pseudo-Christians come to Him bragging about all the "good" works they claim to have done Jesus will say "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by.