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Raphael777 said:This does not necessary mean they have been 'churched'; rather, it incoperates anyone who has received the fullness of the revelation of God and have rejected it
apenman said:Actually, scripture makes it quite clear that God alone is immortal, and there is no evidence, at all, that any of the people going into the lake of fire were able to eat from the tree of life, and therefore live forever. So, it is far more likely that they are simply destroyed, and that in itself is an eternal punishment. No, there is no heresy here.
Also, which verse 11 are you refering to above??
apenman said:Ya, whatever! There is no real scriptural evidence for what you are saying. Scripture states clearly that God alone is immortal:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time -- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. (NIV)
And the KJ:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (KJV)
The soul is only immortal if God provides eternal life, it comes from God at that point.Raphael777 said:Are you denying the immorality of the soul?
Multi-Elis said:There is one atheist who stayed atheist even though he met God. There are some who turn to Budism. It's really varied. That's what adds to the credibility.
This is a good point--to some extent. I share your understanding that those who go to hell do so out of free-will, because they prefer their selfishness to Love. But it is the eternal character that doesn't match God's goodness. Actually, one can speculate: When you are caught in a trance of selfishness or in a trance of being addicted, (by trance I mean you are so involved you don't notice any thing else) one can really wonder when the person will get out of the trance enough to see that their situation is extremely bad and that they need salvation. But consider this:I often think the issue of universalism is built upon the false notion that an eternal hell contradicts one of God's most important attributes, His goodness
That is part of the testamony of a NDE. It shows that some people reject God for the wrong reasons. In rejecting God, they don't benifit as much from the help God offers, that would otherwise help a person choose to Love. So they are almost in a hopeless state. I cannot accept that God's goodness would send people "eternally" to hell because they made some bad decisions. I can accept that they stay in hell untill they make a right decision, or some other help comes along.For many years, I had no clue who this man Jesus Christ was. Oh, I was raised up to be a Christian alright ... but I never really understood who Christ really was until after my experience. I found too many in Christianity come off as haughty and oppressive ... and because of this ... I wanted to distance myself as far away from the faith as I could! But in the process, I also distanced my self from Jesus, The teacher of Love and that was unfortunate! It was not Jesus' fault that so many who 'said' they subscribed to the Lord of Love's ways ... came off acting like they had a board up their backside! Perhaps if I had had better examples of Christ-Love as a child, I would have understood the Lord when I was first taught to believe in him, but that was not in the cards for me.
So now, I never EVER judge anyone if they are unsure about what they feel when it comes to God, Christ or the Bible.
I think we answerd this. Each according to his(her) personal revelation. Mine is on page 9.What about the Cross? What about the great suffering of the Son of God? Do you believe it was for nought? That Jesus of Nazareth was some sort of cosmic Fool?
Rev. Smith, I realy like your thinking here. I don't know if christians have the truth or a truth. Based on NDE's it seems as if the Son of God does exist and does welcome us home at death. He is Love. Now some may call him Budha or Apollo, but I don't think it has as much to do with His name as with His existance. If we call Him Jesus because we know (by whatever standard) that he walked on earth 2000 years ago, it is hard to see if we have the truth or a truth.Can we as Christians endure if we are "a" truth, instead of "the" truth?
That's fromSchaff's history of the christian church, volume 1 page 512.We must not confound truth with dogma. Truth is the divine substance, doctrine or dogma is the human apprehension and statement of it; truth is a life-giving power, dogma a logical formula; truth is infinite, unchanging and eternal ; dogma is finite changeable and perfetible.
apenman said:It is at the point of transformation that the saying becomes true, not before. The soul is not created immortal, it becomes immortal when God provides that immortality.
Only God is immortal, he gives us eternal life, which is not exactly the same thing. I used the word immortal because I was quoting the verse, nothing more. To be immortal means to have always existed, no beginning, no end, we have a beginning, so in that context we are not immortal.Raphael777 said:But I thought you said only God is immortal, so you have directly contradicted yourself...
It also does not explain why, in Jesus parable, Lazarus' damned soul existed after His death (Luke 16:19-31) and was not annihilated...
To quote St. John Damascene, 'There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death'.
apenman said:Only God is immortal, he gives us eternal life, which is not exactly the same thing. I used the word immortal because I was quoting the verse, nothing more. To be immortal means to have always existed, no beginning, no end, we have a beginning, so in that context we are not immortal.
No! This is simply a reference to God's view from outside of time, in the context that he knows the end from the beginning. From the context of any point inside of time God can also see the end, and he therefore knows his people including the above reference.Raphael777 said:However, in Jeremiah, it states, 'Before i formed you in the womb, i knew you; before you came to birth i consecrated you...' (Jeremiah 1:5) which implies that our souls existed before conception.
No, we disagree because what you are saying is not correct, or at least there is no real basis for this in scripture. In a similar example, it is believed by many Christians that angels do not have souls or freewill, yet the evidence in scripture is entirely the opposite, so people believing a certain thing means little to me.Raphael777 said:Moreover, Christianity understands the immortality of the soul to be 'that quality or attribute of the soul by reason of which it cannot die', not 'to have always existed'. Maybe our different of the interpretation of the term is partially why we are disagreeing.
The lake of fire, which is second death, occurs after final judgment, the lazarus story is pre final judgment. All the dead who will be condemned, the goats, are kept until final judgment, they have a right to be judged. Then, after that judgment comes the lake of fire.Raphael777 said:Also, I need an answer to my Lazarus enquiry...
Furthermore, there are many who reject Christ only because he is misrepesented by religion, especially the Christian religion, and they too will be judged under the law of Christ the same as everyone, and if their faith fulfills that law then they are fine.
You are again ignoring a plethora of scripture in making this statement. Yes, Jesus died for the whole world, but scripture is clear that it is by FAITH we are saved. Whosoever BELIEVES on Him shall not perish, etc., etc., etc.apenman said:OK, let's go back to square one here:
1 John 2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)
The sacrifice of Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. If one does not understand this, then one does not understand the sacrifice of Christ. It is not "potentially applicable" to everyone, but only applied to those who believe, this is completely inaccurate.
Now you seem to be contradicting yourself.When Christ died on the cross, and rose from the dead, he paid the price for all sin, without exception, and that sacrifice was applicable to all, right then and there, for all time. Now, this does not mean that all are saved, instead it means that all will answer to Christ. In fact, it is this sacrifice, and the fact that it is applicable to all, that makes him "Lord of all", and judge of all, and he is the only judge.
What do you mean by "lived by faith"? At its very root and essence, faith is believing (Greek: pistis=faith; pisteuo=believe same root meaning).Now, all things are placed under him, which includes every single human being, from beginning to end, and Satan and all his followers, Christ in fact judges them all. The issue for all people then is, who has lived by faith, because it is a righteousness that is by faith "from first to last" which means the same standard will be applied to all people.
If you know someone who has lived a life of perfect love. I would like to meet them. On the one hand you say that Jesus' sacrifice saves all men; on the other hand you say that only those who love will be saved. Which is it?This is why we don't see any judgment in scripture in which people are judged by what they believed, because the same standard will be applied to all, and this includes those who lived before Christ. Furthermore, there are many who reject Christ only because he is misrepesented by religion, especially the Christian religion, and they too will be judged under the law of Christ the same as everyone, and if their faith fulfills that law then they are fine.
This is not true. Faith is believing and trusting. Love is a fruit of faith produced only by the Holy Spirit. There is a difference.Faith is expressed as love
The problem with your assertion is that people don't love naturally, not truly love. They may do humanitarian or seemingly compassionate things, but all humanly motivated acts are tainted with sin and selfish motivations. Only the Holy Spirit can motivate us to true love. The Bible does not say that we are saved by loving. It says we are justified, forgiven, and saved by believing on Christ. This is what grace is all about. You have a very strange belief.love is the fullfillment of the law, that being the law of Christ, and all are judged the same under that law becuase the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to all. If one does not understand this, then one cannot possibly understand salvation.
No, I am not ignoring them, I simply understand what they mean.mortsmune said:You are again ignoring a plethora of scripture in making this statement. Yes, Jesus died for the whole world, but scripture is clear that it is by FAITH we are saved. Whosoever BELIEVES on Him shall not perish, etc., etc., etc.
I have been entirely consistant, I am not a universalist and never said that everyone is saved. Instead, I said the the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to all, which makes everyone answerable to Christ.mortsmune said:Now you seem to be contradicting yourself.
I will explain below where you disagree that faith is expressed through love, which it is.mortsmune said:What do you mean by "lived by faith"? At its very root and essence, faith is believing (Greek: pistis=faith; pisteuo=believe same root meaning).
It is only the law of Moses that demands perfection, the law of Christ does not, so no one has to live a perfect life of love.mortsmune said:If you know someone who has lived a life of perfect love. I would like to meet them.
I never said that the sacrifice of Christ saves all men.mortsmune said:On the one hand you say that Jesus' sacrifice saves all men; on the other hand you say that only those who love will be saved. Which is it?
OK, so I said that faith is expressed as love and above you say that this is not true, so let's consider the following scripture:mortsmune said:This is not true. Faith is believing and trusting. Love is a fruit of faith produced only by the Holy Spirit. There is a difference. The problem with your assertion is that people don't love naturally, not truly love. They may do humanitarian or seemingly compassionate things, but all humanly motivated acts are tainted with sin and selfish motivations. Only the Holy Spirit can motivate us to true love. The Bible does not say that we are saved by loving. It says we are justified, forgiven, and saved by believing on Christ. This is what grace is all about. You have a very strange belief.
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