Universal salvation

[cloudyday2]

Why would your dream be more authoritative than the Bible, which has been THE defining source of Christian belief and practice almost from the beginning of Christianity? Why would you place the content of your dream above the established truth of God's Word? If your dream can trump the Bible, why can't anyone else's dream do the same?

Universalism is not taught in Scripture. This is the simple fact of the matter. If you want to adopt a belief contrary to the teaching of the Bible in this matter that is entirely up to you. Just understand that you do not hold a truly Christian belief in doing so. God's truth is not yours to make.

Selah.

Others in this thread have said that they understand those Bible verses differently and don't see a problem with universal salvation. Besides I think the Bible is a mess. I think maybe God and Jesus exist, because it seems like they have interacted with me at times. But I look at Christianity and think "no way ... this is the world's dumbest religion". So I'm trying to figure it out.

 

[ezeric]

Others in this thread have said that they understand those Bible verses differently and don't see a problem with universal salvation. Besides I think the Bible is a mess. I think maybe God and Jesus exist, because it seems like they have interacted with me at times. But I look at Christianity and think "no way ... this is the world's dumbest religion". So I'm trying to figure it out.

There is a HUGE difference between 'Christian Religion' and GRACE.
JESUS warned that they are 'holding on to the traditions of man, and letting go of the commands of GOD'. Mark 7:8

Churchianty is one thing…being 'the Church' is another.
Going to a temple built by human hands is one thing, being the 'temple' is another. Acts 7:48

GRACE and Un-condtional LOVE and Reconciliation of all man is the ONLY thing that will truly resonate in your SPIRIT - everything else leads to burden, fear and bondage (works of the enemy).

Keep on exploring, as true Christianity (if that is the 'right term') really works! (it MUST work).
And it works in power and freedom! If it does NOT bring you that, run away.

-eric

 

[aiki]

Others in this thread have said that they understand those Bible verses differently and don't see a problem with universal salvation.

THis is the problem with asking questions about such things under the circumstances that you are. You have no idea who is right and who is wrong and no way to judge the accuracy or truth of the things they assert. You have a certain bias toward universalism, however, and so you give greater weight to those responses which approve your bias. This is not the way to get at the truth of the matter - especially if your bias is wrong.

Besides I think the Bible is a mess.

THis, it seems, is largely because you aren't particularly familiar with it.

I think maybe God and Jesus exist, because it seems like they have interacted with me at times.

There is much more objective evidence for the existence of both than your "interactions." God may be deduced quite easily from the nature of the universe and Jesus is an established figure of history. THeir existence is not contingent upon your belief in them.

But I look at Christianity and think "no way ... this is the world's dumbest religion". So I'm trying to figure it out.

How does rewriting Christian doctrine to suit your preferences help you to figure it out? You are not coming to an understanding of the faith by doing so, but only to a reflection of your self.

Selah.

 

[cloudyday2]

There is a HUGE difference between 'Christian Religion' and GRACE.
JESUS warned that they are 'holding on to the traditions of man, and letting go of the commands of GOD'. Mark 7:8

Churchianty is one thing…being 'the Church' is another.
Going to a temple built by human hands is one thing, being the 'temple' is another. Acts 7:48

GRACE and Un-condtional LOVE and Reconciliation of all man is the ONLY thing that will truly resonate in your SPIRIT - everything else leads to burden, fear and bondage (works of the enemy).

Keep on exploring, as true Christianity (if that is the 'right term') really works! (it MUST work).
And it works in power and freedom! If it does NOT bring you that, run away.

-eric

thanks.

 

[cloudyday2]

THis is the problem with asking questions about such things under the circumstances that you are. You have no idea who is right and who is wrong and no way to judge the accuracy or truth of the things they assert. You have a certain bias toward universalism, however, and so you give greater weight to those responses which approve your bias. This is not the way to get at the truth of the matter - especially if your bias is wrong.

THis, it seems, is largely because you aren't particularly familiar with it.

There is much more objective evidence for the existence of both than your "interactions." God may be deduced quite easily from the nature of the universe and Jesus is an established figure of history. THeir existence is not contingent upon your belief in them.

How does rewriting Christian doctrine to suit your preferences help you to figure it out? You are not coming to an understanding of the faith by doing so, but only to a reflection of your self.

Selah.

I guess we have to agree to disagree for now.

 

[aiki]

You can lead a horse to water...

Selah.

 

[pyramid33]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

God is already all things. The universe is good, with God. Apart from God, it fails. The universe is not to be praised apart from God. And it certainly isn't to take credit for good. All credit is due God alone.

 

[pyramid33]

There is a HUGE difference between 'Christian Religion' and GRACE.

-eric

Not really. Christians are the work of God. God is grace.

Many are called

 

[Flyboy1818]

So I'm trying to figure it out.

My friend just your final sentence alone points out you haven't quite figured it out yet and I'm guessing you're new to the faith? Let's start with simple stuff, Proverbs 3:5-6.

The wisdom of men including your own wisdom will never unlock the secrets of the Kingdom. I see quite a few people who do their thinking for themselves when all they have to do ask the Father, faithfully in prayer, for wisdom and understanding. Wasn't the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit, whom the bible also calls our teacher?

Wouldn't God honor the request of the faithful who long for wisdom pertaining to the Gospel of Christ?

If you have questions, ask the one who inspired the words in the bible.

But here's the key....be faithful and never doubting, believing He has already heard your prayer and has sent you the answer.

I truely hope you take this route because it's the only way you can ever have your questions answered.

It's all about renewing our mind, thinking as the Holy Spirit does and being one with Him. This all starts at the foot of the cross, where we die to our carnal mind (yes and self to be more general) and let the wisdom of God flood our mind, all through faith. Trust me it takes the breaking down of a persons pride for that person to seek God's wisdom and rely on it.

 

[ezeric]

Not really. Christians are the work of God. God is grace.

Many are called

Christians may be the work of GOD

BUT

Christian religion is the work of man.
(most of what we have on a given sunday service is 'traditions of men'.)

-eric

 

[aiki]

Christian religion is the work of man.
(most of what we have on a given sunday service is 'traditions of men'.)

Christian tradition and Christianity the religion are not exactly the same thing. Christianity the religion is properly constituted of biblical doctrine and theology. It would be impossible to define what Christianity is and to live as a Christian without the biblical truths, spiritual principles, and divine wisdom that constitute the faith. Yes, Christianity is more than doctrine and theology; it is a relationship with God through Christ, but the relational aspect of the faith does not exist without the doctrine and theology that gives it structure and/or definition.

Human traditions that have grown up around the faith have, in some corners, overtaken the teachings of God's Word. Rituals, and procedures, and personal preferences have been set on par, and even above, divinely-inspired Scripture. Of course, not all traditions are necessarily destructive to the faith, but some certainly are. Many traditions tend to obscure or replace the relational heart of the Christian life. Insofar as they do, they ought to be criticized and abandoned.

Selah.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

The point of salvation has nothing to do with "something worth saving in everybody", those whom God saves are not a somehow more worthwhile, preferable, special bunch. They're ornery, stubborn, selfish sinners the same as everyone else on the planet.

God doesn't save the good men of the world. God saves the men of the world so that they might live into His goodness in the good world He is preparing. A substandard physician might go into a hospital and heal only the mostly well, a pill here and a pill there for headaches and the common cold. But it is a great physician who takes the terminally ill and dying and restores them to full and perfect health.

Jesus says He did not come to call the righteous, but to call sinners; He did not come for the healthy, but the sick.

I feel this cannot be stressed enough. Salvation in Christianity is never about good people getting their just reward, or God fixing people of their minor foibles so they can live better; it is about the just and holy God condescending in the form of weak human flesh, suffering cross and death for the sake of a sinful, dead, dying world in order to take that world into Himself and restore it back to life in and through His resurrection, and ultimately the resurrection of all the dead on the last day, and the renewal of the heavens and the earth.

Jesus is not calling good men to become better, or bad men to become good men. Jesus is calling dead men to get up and walk. And He is making that happen.

Now in this, is it possible, and can we hope, that at the end of all things everyone is saved, that all will be restored to God in and through Jesus Christ? That is certainly my own hope and prayer. But we can't be dogmatic about it, we simply don't and cannot know such things. But we can point to the One who is the salvation of the whole world, Jesus Christ. In Him is life and life eternal, without Him there is nothing but me descending further and deeper into myself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cloudyday2]

The point of salvation has nothing to do with "something worth saving in everybody", those whom God saves are not a somehow more worthwhile, preferable, special bunch. They're ornery, stubborn, selfish sinners the same as everyone else on the planet.

God doesn't save the good men of the world. God saves the men of the world so that they might live into His goodness in the good world He is preparing. A substandard physician might go into a hospital and heal only the mostly well, a pill here and a pill there for headaches and the common cold. But it is a great physician who takes the terminally ill and dying and restores them to full and perfect health.

Jesus says He did not come to call the righteous, but to call sinners; He did not come for the healthy, but the sick.

I feel this cannot be stressed enough. Salvation in Christianity is never about good people getting their just reward, or God fixing people of their minor foibles so they can live better; it is about the just and holy God condescending in the form of weak human flesh, suffering cross and death for the sake of a sinful, dead, dying world in order to take that world into Himself and restore it back to life in and through His resurrection, and ultimately the resurrection of all the dead on the last day, and the renewal of the heavens and the earth.

Jesus is not calling good men to become better, or bad men to become good men. Jesus is calling dead men to get up and walk. And He is making that happen.

Now in this, is it possible, and can we hope, that at the end of all things everyone is saved, that all will be restored to God in and through Jesus Christ? That is certainly my own hope and prayer. But we can't be dogmatic about it, we simply don't and cannot know such things. But we can point to the One who is the salvation of the whole world, Jesus Christ. In Him is life and life eternal, without Him there is nothing but me descending further and deeper into myself.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks, that is a good point. My original question was not clear about that. This is all based on what I saw in a dream. I feel Jesus gave me a tour of death and salvation because I was so extremely depressed before I went to sleep that night. Yesterday I was reading a little about NDEs and many of the concepts match. That gives me more confidence that the dream may have been more than my imagination.

I won't cover the whole dream, but I think there is something in every human that Jesus would never ever destroy even though he has the right to destroy it. It's not the same as saying somebody's "not all bad". It's like a buried treasure or a dormant seed or something. It's so important that everything about who we think we are and how we have lived our lives is dwarfed by the significance of this hidden thing.

I think that matches some of the parables of Jesus like the man who finds treasure buried in a field and sells everything to buy that field. That's how Jesus feels about us IMO.

 

[theophilus777]

When I believe in Christianity it is universal salvation in the following way:
(1) Being Christian doesn't mean "being saved"; it only means knowing enough about Jesus to follow his teachings more and to hope in him
(2) The more a Christian knows Jesus the more he/she trusts and hopes in Jesus and the less that person fears death - not because that person is confidence in "being saved" but because that person is confident that Jesus loves them in spite of sinfulness.
(3) As a person has confidence that Jesus loves him/her for no apparent reason, then that person will have confidence that Jesus loves everybody for no apparent reason.

So universal salvation seems to be a natural thing for Christians to believe. The salvation is universal not because it is more fair that way but because Jesus love is universal and it's Jesus love that saves as opposed to anything people can do such as rituals, beliefs, prayers, good behavior.

Are there Christians that agree with that?

You quoted an EC F (early Church Father) who did. Perhaps it was the same one that also believed that even satan would be redeemed in the end? One of them did, anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that our Faith certainly makes more sense in this light as compared to Dante's inferno, but I will express it this way: clearly it is to the glory of God, for each and every soul that is around His throne at the end, as depicted in Rev., and also for hell to be 100% devoid of humanity. It is also Divine Justice for the One who gets to make this determination in each and every case to be the very same One who bought our redemption with His own shed blood.

How these things will play out is not known to us, and Jesus Himself makes it clear in Scripture that He wants us focusing on HIM.

 

[theophilus777]

Jesus is not calling good men to become better, or bad men to become good men. Jesus is calling dead men to get up and walk. And He is making that happen.

 

[aiki]

Jesus said:

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Selah.