Universal salvation

Status
Not open for further replies.

Called2Grace

My body, my birth my choice!
Site Supporter
Sep 14, 2005
3,410
233
44
Australia
✟49,719.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Labor
I have just been doing some browsing through the net and came accross the term universal salvation. It does appear to be controversion, but I was wondering if anyone here had heard of it and wheather there are any religions which actually accept this doctrine.
 

InTheCloud

Veteran
May 9, 2007
3,784
229
Planet Earth
✟12,597.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
It was a huge controversy in the early christian church and one of the reasons why Origen is a Early Church Father but not a saint.
Basically they said that an all loving, omnipotent and rational God could not send people to hell for eternity. His Mercy enventually would take over. Is like there is not real hell but just a Heaven and a loooonnngg Purgatory. And souls that were not clean to get to Heaven after dead will go to the "Hell-purgatory" to cleanse of their sins. That eventually we all will get to heaven, it just will take most time for the more serious sinners.
Many mystics had a huge trouble with God sending people to Hell for eternity, but few have gone to state universal salvation. Anglican Indian mystic Sandur Singh is one of the few that did.
Universal salvation was made a heresy and the Purgatory doctrine as a place separate from Hell and as lounge for Heaven took off.
 
Upvote 0

david01

Senior Veteran
Jul 6, 2007
3,034
98
72
✟11,221.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
As for current churches which believe this heresy, the most obvious is the Unitarian-Universalist Church, which is a merger of the Unitarian (non-trinitarian) Church and the Universalist Church, both of which emerged in New England at the end of the eighteenth century.

Other denominations teeter on the edge of this belief, including most mainline Protestant churches such as the United Presbyterian Church, the United Methodist Church, the ELCA, and some Episcopal churches. Some of the papal comments regarding non-Catholics as participating in salvation, but not having the fullness of salvation have been interpreted by some as tending toward universalism.
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Do I believe in Hell? Hell no.

From the mouths of socks....

Tell us why, if you would. I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just curious whether you have something m,ore compelling than "how could and all loving, all powerful God even allow a place of eternal torment to exist?" Amd I'm not saying that said argument isn't compelling, because it certainly is. I'm tending to lean towards it myself. I don't think there are very many people in hell. I trust God to be forgiving and, well, nice.
 
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,751
1,265
✟333,311.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
From the mouths of socks....

Tell us why, if you would. I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just curious whether you have something m,ore compelling than "how could and all loving, all powerful God even allow a place of eternal torment to exist?" Amd I'm not saying that said argument isn't compelling, because it certainly is. I'm tending to lean towards it myself. I don't think there are very many people in hell. I trust God to be forgiving and, well, nice.
How can God extend mercy unless someone is willing to accept it? And I've never seen the Catholic viewpoint of hell as being 'eternal torment' except for that which a person brings on themselves by isolating themselves from the love of God by an act of their will.

From JP2:
"Eternal damnation", therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state."

The thought that all people will freely submit themselves to the will of God to be healed and cleansed from sin isn't a very practical one imo as evidenced by the way many choose to live their lives. I don't think the idea that God created a place of eternal torment for those who reject him as punishment is consistent with the nature of God. I think he sadly lets those who refuse his offer of salvation turn away and wander off into the abyss. And I do believe that many will choose this for themselves.
 
Upvote 0

CatholicFlame

The Lord is Risen Indeed
Nov 4, 2007
3,837
256
California
Visit site
✟20,269.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I realize that for anyone to teach that there will be a universal salvation is a heresy, considering the true teachings of our faith,

But... Our faith does not teach that anyone is in hell per se... and we pray at every mass that all will be saved.

Now don't get me wrong I would never as a faithful catholic teach that no one goes to hell... but I would teach that we hope that no one goes to hell.

Pope John Paul II was asked in his book "On the Threshold of Hope" if he believed anyone ws in hell. He only make a light reference that God is a merciful God but our wise pope did not answer the question.

Read that book, it's short and it really shows the personality of JPII.

He is interviewed by a non-believing reporter (a nice one though) ;)
 
Upvote 0

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟68,185.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Universalism is part of what brought me to Christianity, and the implausibility of universalism of it is part of what led me to stop being an active church-goer. Hell was one of the biggest issues I had with faith and religion, and Christianity in particular. When I realized there were Christians out there who didn't believe in hell, that is one of the things that made me reconsider an atheism I'd held since early childhood (It wasn't quite atheism, in some respects -- my view was that God probably didn't exist and if he did I'd disagree with him anyhow). I eventually became Episcopalian, where I held either a universalist or a semi-universalist (very few people are in hell) position for a couple years.

Unfortunately, I know longer believe universalism is consistent with the Christian faith. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine Christians out there who are universalists, but they're wrong about their religion, as best I can tell. Obviously, I could be mistaken. Everything points towards heaven and hell, though, scripture, tradition, history, and, in Roman Catholicism, the magesterium, and so forth. And everything points to both heaven and hell being populated.

One thing that's always kind of hard to handle, but I think is so true that it ought to be the starting point for any catechesis is: "God isn't whomever we want him to be, God is who he is". If there really is a God up there who is an objective reality, he can't just be a reflection of our individual mindsets. If everyone can invent their own god with attributes they completely agree with; they aren't worshiping a true god, they're worshiping themselves, or an imaginary god they've created in their minds. If God exists, we should absolutely expect that we'll at least initially disagree with a lot of his reasoning, and that it'll be challenging. If we automatically agree wholly and fully, isn't that a bit suspicious? "Oh look, by remarkably coincidence, God, presumably a perfect being with unlimited capacity for thought, is exactly like me, a random flawed human being with relatively limited capacity for thought, in terms of His reasoning and morality". Think about how implausible that is for a minute.

I'm not saying people should automatically worship this God because he is there. I'm not saying they shouldn't. But I do think it makes sense to search out who God is, to discover as much about Him as possible, and to make an informed judgment based on the objective reality of the situation to the extent one can determine it. If we just seek out or invent a version of God we can always easily agree with, that's not really God, in my view.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WarriorAngel
Upvote 0

Called2Grace

My body, my birth my choice!
Site Supporter
Sep 14, 2005
3,410
233
44
Australia
✟49,719.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Labor
I don't think I've ever heard of the Liberal Catholic Church. I just thought there were some Catholics who were liberal.

What made you choose this particular church? Were you originally a Roman Catholic and converted??

I mean no disrespect, I am very interested in people's faith journeys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WarriorAngel
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ms.Babylon

Woman Who Rides the Beast
Jun 5, 2002
113
9
Visit site
✟317.00
Faith
Catholic
From the mouths of socks....

My sock (which I never planned on using except Miss Shelby started that totally cool sockpuppet thread and I couln't resist) has the same opinions and beliefs as my regular username.
Nothing different, I'm the same freaking person.

Tell us why, if you would. I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just curious whether you have something m,ore compelling than "how could and all loving, all powerful God even allow a place of eternal torment to exist?" Amd I'm not saying that said argument isn't compelling, because it certainly is. I'm tending to lean towards it myself. I don't think there are very many people in hell. I trust God to be forgiving and, well, nice.

Besides all the answers that you are not permitting me to use, basically Hell makes no sense. It's a primitive and nonsensical imaginary place.

Here's one good reason. If there is a place of eternal torment created by God for the purpose of torturing human souls, then that would give God the qualities of a demon.
The entity would not be God.

If there is a place of eternal torment and God is not able to save human souls from the horrible fate of non ending torture, that being is then not all powerful.
And that entity would not be God.

So either way, the existance of Hell means that there is NO GOD.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Does it even need to be said at this point that Hell is a De Fide concept in Catholic Theology and is not up for question in a serious theological sense.

The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell. (De fide. )

The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity. (De fide.)

These are dogmatic truths of the Catholic Faith. I understand people can have a problem with it but Universalism and Catholicism are mutually exclusive.

Of course as already pointed out the Church does not declare that anyone specific is in hell. But it does teach Hell as a dogmatic fact beyond dispute.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
If there is a place of eternal torment and God is not able to save human souls from the horrible fate of non ending torture, that being is then not all powerful.
And that entity would not be God.

So either way, the existance of Hell means that there is NO GOD.

No. There is free will. God does not force salvation and we are free to reject it.

It is not a question of God not being God. But of people not being mind-wiped robots force to accept God.

Hell is the absence of God. The natural consequence of rejection of God. In fact...hell proves God more strongly than it disproves Him. God gives us every chance to accept or reject Him. it is not a question of His mercy, it is a question of our stubbornness.

We can not walk blindly into hell.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.