Universal reconciliation

[Der Alte]

Right chaela, and also I don't know if anyone has thought of this but, in order for someone to be tormented for eternity,.....
Wouldn't they have to have a body that would not die......and if so then your talking about an incorruptable body.....which in turn blows that theory all to pieces too....because corruption does not inherit incorruption, it must be put on.

So now God is not capable of providing some kind of presence to punish if He chooses to punish the wicked?

 

[Der Alte]

I don't think you will recieve this as an answer, but here goes....

You read those passages and see God destroying the people...
I read them and see Him destroying, the Imaginations of their hearts, their other gods, their worship of them...
Because "They refuse To Hear His Words" and be cleansed.

Adding words and twisting scriptures. Do you think that God was incapable of saying "destroy, the Imaginations of their hearts, their other gods, their worship of them...Because "They refuse To Hear My Words" and be cleansed" if that is what He meant? Please explain to me how God might have had mercy, pity and spare "imaginations of the heart" and "worship of other gods?"
.
Here is a maxim for interpreting the Bible, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." We don't desperately try to find figurative meanings just because the literal sense doesn't support our assumptions/presuppositions.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

These are the same enemies that we have in us that must be destroyed also, in order for us to be a praise and a Glory to Him.

Remember Jesus said.....your enemies would be of your own household, (that means within us).
The same as it was with Isreal and Judah.

More twisting of scripture to make it prop up false doctrines. If Jesus had meant imaginations of the heart, etc. that is what He would have said not "your own household!" The problem with these figurative interpretations is that there are many unorthodox theology groups around finding their own figurative languages hidden in the scripture which wonder of wonders just happens to support their false teachings. And of course they think they are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[brixken7]

Here is a maxim for interpreting the Bible, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." We don't desperately try to find figurative meanings just because the literal sense doesn't support our assumptions/presuppositions.

Mmm. O.K.
Then why is it that you don't accept that the "wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), but instead believe "death" means ETERNAL LIFE in hell ?
Obviously, the literal sense doesn't support YOUR ASSUMPTIONS and presuppositions.

 

[Der Alte]

Mmm. O.K.
Then why is it that you don't accept that the "wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), but instead believe "death" means ETERNAL LIFE in hell ?
Obviously, the literal sense doesn't support YOUR ASSUMPTIONS and presuppositions.

I can't prevent you from twisting scripture but don't even think about twisting my words or misrepresenting what I say. I suggest you confine your responses to what I actually say not what you think I believe. I know and believe that Rom 6:23 says "The wages of sin is death." I also know that "all have sinned" every person, 100% of mankind, who ever lived or will live has or will sin.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: ​

I also know that it is appointed that all, 100% of, mankind will die after that the judgment.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
​

None of these verses say that the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then death again.

 

[brixken7]

I can't prevent you from twisting scripture..."

I can't prevent YOU from "twisting scripture."

 

[2KnowHim]

So now God is not capable of providing some kind of presence to punish if He chooses to punish the wicked?

I never said He was not capable of providing some kind of presence, you did.
I said an incorruptable body as most descibe, when taking about ET.

 

[2KnowHim]

Adding words and twisting scriptures. Do you think that God was incapable of saying "destroy, the Imaginations of their hearts, their other gods, their worship of them...Because "They refuse To Hear My Words" and be cleansed" if that is what He meant? Please explain to me how God might have had mercy, pity and spare "imaginations of the heart" and "worship of other gods?"

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[Der Alte]

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Please tell me when the words "I never knew you" will change?

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity​

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Joh 3:16-19
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
​

The words of Paul and the other NT writers must be interpreted to agree with the words of Jesus. Not the other way round.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

The word ελεηση/eleese translated "might have mercy" is a Verb-Aorist Active Subjunctive-3d person Singular. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and probability. The verse does not say "will have mercy!"

 

[Rajni]

Only if one ignores the other 31,171 verses in the Bible

Well yes, but then again the bible does tend to contradict
itself. This is why I focus on verses that suggest the sort
of behavior one might expect from a truly Divine being
as opposed to what reads as though the writer is
projecting his own biases against those he dislikes onto
paper. The exclusivistic, tribalistic language therein is
most likely the latter as far as I'm concerned. It's
too ... human? ... to be anything else.
-

 

[jugghead]

For me it is as simple as this .... which is better ....

to save only some of mankind?
...............or.................
to save all of mankind?

I believe it is better to save all of mankind and that God is wise enough and has figured out a way to do it, therefore what is impossible for men is possible with God

 

[Gregory Thompson]

well it's easy to twist one's interpretation of the bible. But to characterize one's interpretation of the bible as "scripture" appears to be crossing a line of some sort.

 

[2KnowHim]

For me it is as simple as this .... which is better ....

to save only some of mankind?
...............or.................
to save all of mankind?

I believe it is better to save all of mankind and that God is wise enough and has figured out a way to do it, therefore what is impossible for men is possible with God

And not only that but, think about this...if one person is ET forever and not Reconciled back to God....Then they would remain in a Death state/not made alive in Christ that is....and therefore this could not be Truth.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Der Alte]

And not only that but, think about this...if one person is ET forever and not Reconciled back to God....Then they would remain in a Death state/not made alive in Christ that is....and therefore this could not be Truth.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Lot of this going around. Quote a few verses out-of-context to "prove" a false doctrine. Only four verses after this proof text eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. Note this is future from vs. 8 "shall have their part..."

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ​

 

[Der Alte]

Well yes, but then again the bible does tend to contradict
itself. This is why I focus on verses that suggest the sort
of behavior one might expect from a truly Divine being
as opposed to what reads as though the writer is
projecting his own biases against those he dislikes onto
paper. The exclusivistic, tribalistic language therein is
most likely the latter as far as I'm concerned. It's
too ... human? ... to be anything else.
-

Assume that the Bible contradicts itself. So anything you don't like just toss it out. Pick and choose verses which support your fallible, finite human assumptions/presupposition what "a truly Divine being" should be like. Assume that the Bible writers interjected their own biases onto the text, therefore you can throw anything that you think is biased. Throw out anything you think is exclusivistic, tribalistic too human language. Too bad God couldn't do what He said He would and someone must sort through all this stuff to find His true word.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.​

 

[Der Alte]

And not only that but, think about this...if one person is ET forever and not Reconciled back to God....Then they would remain in a Death state/not made alive in Christ that is....and therefore this could not be Truth.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Yet four verses after this proof text eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. Note this is future from vs. 8, "shall have their part."

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ​

 

[Gregory Thompson]

After the judgment and resurrection the Bride is revealed, and it is said that the Spirit and the Bride say come to all who will drink of the water of life freely. Even after the resurrection, the bride continues to invite people with the Spirit of God who invites people now.

 

[jugghead]

It is hard for anyone to tell another what they have come to understand when the person they are speaking to is both the prosecuting attorney and the judge

This is not an accusation towards anyone, it is just a statement of truth

When the Father appoints you as a judge of His Word you have to hear both sides of the case, man's interpretation and God's interpretation .....

 

[2KnowHim]

Please tell me when the words "I never knew you" will change?

I have told you but you will not hear,.....When they face The Holy One and KNOW that all they have done "in His Name" was of their "own works" and not His, then their heart will melt and they will come to KNOW the difference.
They will bow willingly and confess That He is Lord, to The Glory of Father. I can't even imagine the shame and the loss that they will come to experience in that moment, a life time of works but never a Relationship with Him.

But Praise God there is always Hope.....

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I know where you're at Der Alter, I was there once too. You're so precise in your keeping of the Letter of The Word, and the tense, and the proper languages, That you miss The Spirit of The Word, your so busy in your own works and your own understanding, it's blocking you from hearing The Spirit teach you the meaning beneath those words.

That's why you are so afraid to even think of the possibility that UR might be true....because of "Your own Works", you can't even imagine that God would have Mercy on someone who has NO works.
But you know something, ......God's Mercy indures FOREVER! It does'nt stop just because a person dies never having known Him while in a physical body, because it's got nothing to do with the flesh anyhow.

God can and will save to the Uttermost, it is written...His hand is not to short, He will disannul their covenant with Death and their agreement with Hell...Isa. 28

The word ελεηση/eleese translated "might have mercy" is a Verb-Aorist Active Subjunctive-3d person Singular. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and probability. The verse does not say "will have mercy!"

If you would just let yourself see what this is saying and have a willing heart to hear "What the Spirit" is saying, then He would show you the same things He's shown us. It is possible and a probability that He will have all men to be saved and come to the Knowledge of the Truth.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God will destroy all things that oppose Him, so that the man will be saved....why can't you let yourself see this.
Would you rather see God as Vengefull, destroyer, Mercyless, without Compassion, and see His Enemies lifted up Higher than Him? Because that's what your doing ya know. You might as well be saying that God won't win, or He doesn't have the power to overcome all things that keep us from following Him or that man's will is stronger than God's.....

 

[jugghead]

Hi Michael, don't know if that is your real name but something came to mind a little bit ago ..... it is a picture of your identity in Christ ...... Michael Call Them

And also would like to note your caption ..... compassion is the basis of the teachings .... boy can I identify with that ... on 12/12/05 that is when I had my first experience and I later come to understand that "IT WAS" the basis of the teachings of Christ

Amen brother

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hi Michael, don't know if that is your real name but something came to mind a little bit ago ..... it is a picture of your identity in Christ ...... Michael Call Them

And also would like to note your caption ..... compassion is the basis of the teachings .... boy can I identify with that ... on 12/12/05 that is when I had my first experience and I later come to understand that "IT WAS" the basis of the teachings of Christ

Amen brother

Bless