fatherjimparker
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PS Just reread. Maybe I missed your question. This was for 'font color' and not 'background'. I don't even know the answer to that one.
He also gives man his choice as to where he will spend that eternity; alive and united to Him as the Bride of Christ or separated from Him in the hell that we fabricate for ourselves. Those who strive to imitate God in His love and mercy are united to Him. Those who are self-willed, self-centered and self-loving suffer the loss of that relationship with Life and Love by their own choice.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If we had "NO" choice of becoming sinners because of Adam's disobedience.....
Then what makes you think that we have a "choice" to become Saints by Christ obedience?
Including orthodoxy's concept IMO.God does not act toward mankind according to our concept of justice.
Your right there, HE GIVES man his choice.He also gives man his choice as to where he will spend that eternity;
You are speaking about the church right? Though I agree the purpose of the hell fire of God is the SAME for all. Purgative and not punitive.alive and united to Him as the Bride of Christ or separated from Him in the hell that we fabricate for ourselves.
Oh yeah, I forgot a few scriptures above on 'choosing' but they fit here;So God does not punish sin by sending people to hell. He allows sinners, those who choose not to imitate Him, to choose hell rather than being united to Him.
Yes arent' WE lucky, and all those poor people who were just as "disabled and falling short" as we got ET.How great is His love that He does not deal with us according to justice but according to His mercy.
Falsely defined as a length of time by most, and as a 'QUALITY of life IN TIME' by scripture.Whoever believes has eternal life.
Including orthodoxy's concept IMO.
Your right there, HE GIVES man his choice.
Concerning being "called/chosen/predestined/ordained to believe"...GOD chooses!
Concerning FREE WILL;
1TI 2:3,4 ...God our Saviour... who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Concerning grace through faith;
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
Concerning repentance;
2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,
And at the end of all this many 'dumb sheep' still say "I was LOST...but I FOUND the SHEPHERD."
You are speaking about the church right? Though I agree the purpose of the hell fire of God is the SAME for all. Purgative and not punitive.
1PE 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire,
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1CO 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Oh yeah, I forgot a few scriptures above on 'choosing' but they fit here;
JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Good I see you added more CONTEXT in ROMANS than I did last time. Now let's add more.
~God's Righteous Judgment My bible's heading for this section of Romans, which really should read ~God's judgment OF THE Righteous..In context. Since it is talking TO the Church in Rome.
ROM 2:1 Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man - every one who is judging - for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,
Shame on US, judging unsaved sinners while still being sinners who were supposedly saved by God's grace.
2 and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things.
3 And dost thou think this, O man, who art judging those who such things are practising, and art doing them, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Apparently most of the church still thinks they're going to escape.
4 or the riches of His goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, dost thou despise? - not knowing that the goodness of God doth lead thee to reformation!
When does that "goodness of God" appear to those never "drawn/called/chosen/predestined/fore-ordained to believe" in THIS AGE?
5 but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who shall render to each according to his works;
7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility - life age-during;
Yes, I Know BAD translations say "eternal life".
8 and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness - indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man that is working the evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek;
10 and glory, and honour, and peace, to every one who is working the good, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
11 For there is no acceptance of faces with God, I think the concept here is TWO FACED Christians who dismiss their own sins and want eternal torture for those God never dealt with in this age.
But what of His saving GRACE in the AGES TO COME????
EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
Yes arent' WE lucky, and all those poor people who were just as "disabled and falling short" as we got ET.
Falsely defined as a length of time by most, and as a 'QUALITY of life IN TIME' by scripture.
JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
We can know Him in this age, and then in every age to come. Some don't get their FIRST CHANCE for God's saving grace until those ages (Eph 2:7,8 above)
WELCOME TO THE CONTROVERSIAL forum 'FATHERJIM'.
So, are you Father/priest Jim, or Father/parent Jim, or Father/priest/parent Jim?
Father/priest/parent Jim.
I do believe in the "weightier" truths of His mercy, love, forgiveness, reconciliation for all, even as I do believe in the lesser 'truths' of His judgments, wrath, anger, punishments for all.Indeed. It is not our place to judge and our only hope for eternal life is that God is merciful.
I agree. But I disagree with its use in most translations of the bible. Especially since so many scholarly translations never use the word "eternal" in their entire text.We do tend to think of "eternal life" as a very long time since that is how we experience reality.
But that Greek word is adios and is never used in scripture concerning the punishment of people.Eternity is outside of time, to my understanding. It is all "times" at once. IT is forever every now.
Got a scripture for that?THe life is being intimately united to God in Christ. The CHurch, as the bride of Christ, is "one flesh" with Christ.
God's Word says we all stand condemned, that He came that many might follow (not all), that if we followed we could become like the man He was after His Resurrection, and finally that ALL of us have the law written on our hearts so no one has an excuse.If there are none righteous, no not one and we all fall short of the glory of God, is it righteous justice to save only some and not others if we are ALL guilty of the same thing?
Yes the Fall removed the ability/access to immortality (Tree/Cross). Am not speaking of what I think is true - am asking from the UR perspective - why would God bother removing immortality at all from the beginning if one insists that all some of the wicked need is more time and so God is going to give it back to them after they die.DrBubbaLove said: << Whereas in the UR view there is no potentially eternal banishment and so nothing eternal to be saved/escape from. The only thing to be saved from is a temporary process of purification in the next life, which whatever one sees that process is, it is seen as an ongoing process of which some successfully complete in this life and others take longer with. Am not saying that the UR cannot claim supernatural intervention to allow that process, it just does not seem necessary to me in that view. It also suggests to me Hell, is seen as just a place to give some people more time. And if time is what they need to "get better" then what was the reason for removing immortality from the equation in the first place?>>
How was immortality "removed from the equation"? Are you referring to the fall?
If so, that is not the case after the resurrection; all will be raised imperishable and immortal.
The quote you just replied to had nothing to do with the insulting exchange/tone I copied from the first time you used it. It was separated in my post and in copying it you left out your response which came between the two points.It had nothing to do with addressing your question, it had to do with pointing out 'you not seeing yourself as guilty', for the very same thing you accused another of.
Sure it does. Adam was made to live forever sharing in the eternal happiness of God. Because of sin, mankind's access to that immortality is severed - death came. So I disagree - true eternal life requires that neither our body or soul ever dies - so we do need the access to immortality that Adam had (the Cross) to have true eternal life.Immortality has nothing to do with 'true' eternal life.
We agree in part and I point out again my questions are meant to ask how things are from your view (like doesn't that make God Cruel?). Am orthodox and Catholic, I do not have to wonder if the views being taught make sense - because I know they do. As you just implied again that essentially some folks need more time to get it right (in Hell) - So the idea that God removes something to teach us lesson that He then has to give back to everyone so some can have more time to learn the same lesson He initially took it away to teach makes no sense. If time is all they need then why remove that in the first place?They disobeyed and learned from experience the consequence of not 'living in obedience to God', and the temporal mortal results of living in deadly sin. Some lessons in life are 'taught' and learned, for some people the lesson must be 'caught' by experience.
No am saying, doesn't your view, not mine, make God cruel? You are saying God needs to take something away to teach a lesson. A lesson we all agree some get it in this life some don't. Then you say God gives it back to all (which clearly is a reward for some) so that the one's that did not get it in this life (ran out of time because God took that away from everyone) can have more time to finally get it in Hell. So to me, it is not only cruel to see God behaving that way, it makes Him seem kind of flaky.No, it makes Him benevolent for having a plan which wouldn't be finished until the cross, thousands of years later. You amaze me. You think it "cruel of God" to not tell Adam that death was not eternal, but have no problem with a God who would torture most for eternity with no hope. Making it totally up to them if they get to enter this plan you and the Fathers say is eternal.
Actually the Bibles I have read indicates He did tell them explicitly -they would die. Lots of rich symbolism in the stories. Death has two meanings - spiritual and physical - both of which occurred immediately - the physical death just takes longer as it required many years for the original perfect human physical form to finish decay - the process which began the day they ate.Plan or no plan wasn't the issue or lesson of man in the Garden. Obedience and fellowship was the issue, and Adam/Eve failed receiving what God told them they would...a death sentence...and banishment, which He didn't tell them about.
it does not mean that eternal life does not include immortality which is probably the point you attempted to make in responding to my question about your view - it simply means that immortality is not all that "eternal life" is. And speaking of ignorance and mixed up error - this is similar but reversed to the annihilationist claiming that our having people in Hell being immortal means the damned get the same "rewared" as those in glory.Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Also interesting that the view just presented of "Hell" - based almost exclusively on OT depictions, does not differentiate (as the OT and NT does) that the abode of the dead is distinctly different from what is depicted waiting after Judgment.Hell.....
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
shaw-al', shaw-ale' H7592
A primitive root; to inquire; by implication to request; by extension to demand: - ask (counsel, on), beg, borrow, lay to charge, consult, demand, desire, X earnestly, enquire, + greet, obtain leave, lend, pray, request, require, + salute, X straitly, X surely, wish.
When our soul is in Hell, we will most definitly do all these things.
The point was about permanent versus temporary, and the question was why it should be important that Adam not live forever if his banishment was only temporary vs permanent - the claim being all humans are only temporarily separated from God.
I think mankind was made to be dependent upon 'fellowship with God' and His 'tree of life' to have imortality. That's why God said Adam could have continued to live forever if they didn't 'kick him out of the Garden so he couldn't continue to access the life tree, without the presence of God, like Adam did with the death tree. Adam never died upon eating, he entered into the death sentence which still took 900 years to kill him. And he died physically in the 'day/'age before the flood'...the 'thousand year long' antedulvian/day/age is like the hundred year long 'day of the locomotive'. Adam didn't have to 'die' in a 24 hour period of time.Sure it does. Adam was made to live forever sharing in the eternal happiness of God.
They why do Christians still die and get buried just like Jesus did on the cross?so we do need the access to immortality that Adam had (the Cross) to have true eternal life.
I don't believe 'spiritual death' is biblically supported. Do you have a verse? And the body doesn't 'decay' until it's in the grave. But death of the body does require that the sin matures therefore causing death.Death has two meanings - spiritual and physical - both of which occurred immediately - the physical death just takes longer as it required many years for the original perfect human physical form to finish decay - the process which began the day they ate.
Not really. Adam could have had 'immortality' accessing the tree of life while being separated from the fellowship of God's aionian/age-during life which gets translated incorrectly as 'eternal'. That's why God kicked him out and put guards to guard him from coming back in.it does not mean that eternal life does not include immortality which is probably the point you attempted to make
I disagree, I think history proves that from 476-1066, the 'dark ages' (Spiritually also IMO), the Church excommunicated or killed anyone who disagreed, and the congregational masses were kept in scriptural ignorance and basically spiritual as well as mental slaves of their 'priests' and the hierarchy of Roman Catholicism. I am happy to answer any questions I can from my UR perspective.I do not need to defend the orthodox view, it has been challenged repeatedly for thousands of years and the Church does quite well defending it.
Came from a teaching which really spoke to me many years ago. AION is an age and the word from which we get EON. And an EON is a long time with beginning and end. AIONIOS is an adjective of the noun AION/age. An adjective is descriptive of 'what's happening or taking place, relative to the noun'. For example, an hour n. is 60 minutes long, but 8 hourly adj. meetings n. 'back to back' doesn't mean an hour lasts 480 minutes. That's why better translations don't say "eternal judgment" they say "age during judgment" and 'age-long judgment". 'Age-during' correctly defines what's taking place in the age, whereas 'eternal' defines an unlimited time length of the age.The whole post was Excellent Hillsage. But especially loved this.
Came from a teaching which really spoke to me many years ago. AION is an age and the word from which we get EON. And an EON is a long time with beginning and end. AIONIOS is an adjective of the noun AION/age. An adjective is descriptive of 'what's happening or taking place, relative to the noun'. For example, an hourn. is 60 minutes long, but 8 hourlyadj.meetings n. 'back to back' doesn't mean an hour lasts 480 minutes. That's why better translations don't say "eternal judgment" they say "age during judgment" and 'age-long judgment". 'Age-during' correctly defines what's taking place in the age, whereas 'eternal' defines an unlimited time length of the age.
This issue was argued for a long time in the church, but Augustine ended it with his decree that aionios meant eternal. But Augustine's expertise was not in Greek it was Latin..and catholic politics. And the Catholics took care of any who disagreed, in order to 'unify' the church.
So to this day, ET translators take the noun AION/age/EON and force the definitions of 'an age' or 'eternal' based upon their theology and the verse they find it in. How can one word be defined as 'a limited time' and also 'unlimited time'? That's simply no definition AT ALL. Then they take the adjective AIONIOS, and almost without fail define it as ETERNAL. 71X Aionios in bible. 42X eternal 25X everlasting 1X ever The last 3 exceptions being, when it is too stupid to even force it as eternal.
ROM 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world/aionios began,
2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,
And the best for last;
TIT 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;
Hmmm the hope of eternal life, before eternity began.
So, as this verse above says God cannot lie, but, as the verse below says 'translators sure do'.
Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. And that's 'the BIBLE' talking about 'our bibles'.
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