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................................................That's a sweet thought, surely.
However, what do you do with verses like:
Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. or:
Luk_3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. or:
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Just to give you a few?
"There is one caveat to what I just posted, and that is this:
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Really!
Well that's great!
But this raises an important question. If you truly believe salvation is entirely the work of God, then HOW could you possibly have any doubts that He will save everyone (?) -- since it is clearly His stated will to to so (e.g., I Timothy 2:4).
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It all depends on what translation of the Bible you use. Many good translations of the Bible never once speak of "hell" or "eternal" punishment.
"In His book “God’s Methods with Man” the Rev. G. Campbell Morgan says this about the word “eternal”:
“Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally.
-- George Campbell Morgan
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I think this is an important point. The Bible clearly refers to "ages" rather than eternity. And a central theme of Paul in particular is God's desire for reconciliation of the world; for those who can discern it he is indicating that salvation for the world is to be achieved through His chosen people, it is not exclusively for His chosen people:o. Yet the apostle makes it equally clear (along with every other writer of Scripture) that the wicked are to punished (2Thes1:8); so does Jesus but He (our Judge) also emphasises that the standard of judgement applied to men and women will correspond with human standards(Mt6:14; 7:2) which infers that they cannot be eternal in magnitude - which is not to say that they are still to be avoided at all costs.
The writer may "imply" but only the reader can "infer." Where does Jesus say that God's punishment must correspond with human standards?
"The judgements you give are the judgements you shall get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you" (JC -Mt7:2). The One who spoke those words should know - He will be doing the judging for the Father judges no one but has committed all judgement to the Son (Jn5:22).
I don't know about you but however badly someone sins against me I do not regard them as deserving eternal torment.
As for the love that defines God's character (1Jn4:8) it must be in accordance with love as Scripture defines it (1Cor13:4-5) - compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice and determined to punish it severely in those who do not repent of it. Yet His punishments will be seen to be right and just by all just men (Rev19:1,2), and those whose spirits are in union with Christ and (like Paul) have His mind (1Cor2:16) may already discern these things.
Man can only judge other men temporally not eternally. Jesus is talking about the temporal judgment men will get when they judge other men..
Irrelevant! You are not God. You are trying to substitute finite, fallible human reasoning for the infinite, infallible judgment of God.
This passage very much speaks to Gods sovereign will, and mans free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.
But as Jesus well knew, many do not receive such a temporal judgement from men.
The Pharisees were revered and respected by many - their judgements of others were harsh and hypocritical. Their comeuppance will not be from man but God. Likewise God has promised to be merciful to those who show mercy: that unequivocally refers to God's judgement not man's.
I am not God but Jesus is: Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father (Jn14:9). The incarnate Word came in part to reveal God's compassionate nature and intelligible justice to the World He loves and wishes to heal. I seek to apply the principles of justice and kindness that Jesus Himself demonstrated - not as "the compassionate face of God" but the express image of His Father - the God who is Love.
And this is surely right and just. The people who were privileged to be called His own knew His will and yet deliberately disobeyed it. Their destruction is just but it is not opposed to the enlightened human reasoning of those who have the mind of Christ.
I AM who I am: the God of tenderness and compassion, slow to anger, rich in faithful love and constancy, maintaining his faithful love to thousands, forgiving fault crime and sin, yet letting nothing go unchecked, punishing the parents fault in the children and in the grandchildren unto the third and fourth generation (Ex34:6-7NJB)
This is the self portrait of the God who is to be loved and adored by His people for His intelligible justice. There is nothing opposed to sound human reason in any of the descriptions Yahweh provides for Himself or as expressed through the teaching or actions of His Son. Distortions have arisen through man's attempt to unravel the complexities of Holy Scripture, especially regarding the mystery of providence, and that task continues.
I still don't see how this addresses the topic.
God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4).
That's pretty tough to believe, isn't it.
And the original Greek doesn't say God merely "hopes" to save all, it says He is "willing" to save all, meaning God is ready, eager, and prepared to do this! Not at all reluctant! This fact is born out in Isaiah 53:10, for a great many translations tell us that God "was pleased" to sacrifice His son for us all.
"All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the mentally deficient, all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshipped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims?
In most people's minds that's indeed very hard to believe -- even for most professing Christians. But as the evangelist Paul Finkenbinder (aka, Hermano Pablo) stated many years ago:
"Pessimism is sin."
For proof of this he gave the example of how the Israelites who had been sent to spy out the Promised Land, came back with a very gloomy, pessimistic report. You can read of this in Numbers 13:25-33. Basically, their message was that the land promised by God was impossible to take because of its "strong" defenders and "very great" walled cities. What God had promised them, they considered unachievable and absolutely impossible to obtain! To them there was NO WAY that Israel could enter and take the land that God had promised them!
But this lack of faith in God's promise had very serious repercussions, even more serious than their constant complaining after leaving Egypt, and even more serious than their idolatrous worshipping of their molten calf! The Bible clearly states that it was this lack of faith, this unbelief -- and the unbelief of those who heard their message -- that resulted in God (in the Person of Christ) not granting to them entrance into this Promised Land (Hebrews 3:18-19; 4:6,11). Today, in much the same negative vein, we hear religious leaders and Bible teachers claim that God is incapable of bringing us all into the Promised Land. And like the reasoning of old, it's usually based upon a faulty premise that we cannot count on God to do it all, so it's up to us.
Some even claim that God has no desire to save everyone, or that He is hampered by man's supposed "free will" and needs "our permission" to save us! The result is the same. The pessimism and unbelief that existed amongst God's people in ancient Israel, is prevalent today throughout the modern churches, churches composed of people who likewise claim the 'Promised Land' -- be it heaven or a New Earth -- will not be attainable for most people!
The truth is that if we want God to save us in this life, then we need to trust in Him, have faith in Him, rely upon Him, and most of all -- love and BELIEVE Him. Our salvation is dependent upon it.
Man can only judge other men temporally not eternally. Jesus is talking about the temporal judgment men will get when they judge other men.
Irrelevant! You are not God. You are trying to substitute finite, fallible human reasoning for the infinite, infallible judgment of God.
"compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice" I can't find these words in the verses you listed.
Concerning "compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice" Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said I have caused to cleave That word is הדבקתי/hadabaqthi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. Gods will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a mans waist. It was done, finished, completed, in Gods sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause Gods will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. Gods will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
This passage very much speaks to Gods sovereign will, and mans free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.
Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/hadabaqthi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
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14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.[/SIZE]
[FONT="]God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" [/FONT][FONT="](I Timothy 2:4).[/FONT]
[FONT="]"All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the [FONT="]mentally deficient, [/FONT]all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshipped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims?[/FONT]
...................................................I may share some of your optimism with regard to the long term (we discussed) or at least keep an open mind about it - but when referring to the "extremely wicked", I have no doubt (from Scripture) that such are to be punished severely in order to satisfy the retributive aspect of God's justice. That cannot be satisfied by a blanket pardon which can be provided (if God so wishes, and as you say He does so wish) with regard to our offences against Himself thanks to the atonement of His Son. But He has promised in OT and NT to vindicate and AVENGE His persecuted people and will not go back on His promise. There is a "wrath to come" and people must be urged to flee from it to the safety and security that is only to be found "in Christ". You may not be denying that - having reviewed the Tentmaker (UR) forum I am confused by absolute universalists' position on post-mortem punishment other than the fact that it could never be eternal, concerning which I happily concur. R.
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