Universal Reconciliation

FineLinen · Jan 29, 2004

The True Basis Of Redemption

Eph. 2: 4-10

Wm. Barclay New Testament

"For it is to grace that you owe your salvation through faith. The whole process comes from nothing we have done or could do; it is God's gift. Any achievement of ours is ruled out to make it impossible for anyone to boast. It is He who made us what we are, for through Jesus Christ we have been created for that life of goodness which God already prepared for us to live."

Ferrar Fenton New Testament

"You are saved by a gift...For you are saved by a gift through faith, and this is not from yourselves; the gift is from God; not from rituals, so that none can boast. For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus...in which God has decided we should live."

Francis Weymouth New Testament

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the intense love which He bestowed upon us, caused us, dead though we were in our offences, to live with Christ--it is by grace that you have been saved...for it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--so that it may be impossible for any one to boast. For we are God's own handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works which He has predestined us to practice."

J. B. Phillips

"It is, remember, by grace and not by achievement that you are saved...it was nothing you could do or did achieve, it was God's gift to you. No one can pride himself upon earning the love of God. The fact is that what we are we owe to the hand of God upon us. We were born afresh in Christ...."

To Give Repentance

Acts 5:31

"The God of our father's raised up Jesus, whom you yourselves slew and hanged on a tree. Him God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

2 Tim. 2:25

"The servant of the Lord must not quarrel; but must be kindly to everyone, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those who go against the teaching in the hope that God will give them repentance to a full knowledge of the truth."

The True Basis Of Redemption -A.P. Adams-

[move]"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time, will I wait until my change come. Thou wilt call and I will answer Thee. Thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." [/move]

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/adams/TheTrueBasisOfRedemption.htm

He put me back together · Jan 29, 2004

I suppose one could believe that no man will see Gehenna--but the story that the Scriptures tell.

FineLinen · Jan 30, 2004

He put me back together...what a wonderful name, and a glorious experience that originates with Him! "It is remember, by grace and not by achievement that you are saved...it was nothing you could do or did achieve, it was God's gift to you. No one can pride himself upon earning the love of God. The fact is that what we are we owe to the hand of God upon us. We were born afresh in Christ...."

"Christ's love is like His name, and that is Wonderful, yes, it is so wonderful that it is supra omnem creaturam, ultra omnem measuram, contra omnem naturam, above all creatures, beyond all measure, contrary to all nature. It is above all creatures, for it is above the angels, and therefore above all others. It is beyond all measure, for time did not begin it and time shall never end it; place doth not bound it, sin doth not exceed it, no estate, no age and time shall ever end it; place doth not bound it, sin doth not exceed it, no estate, no age, no sex is denied it, tongues cannot express it, understandings cannot conceive it: and it is contrary to all nature; for what nature can love when it is hated? What nature can forgive where it is provoked? What nature can offer reconciliation where it receiveth wrong? What nature can heap up kindness upon contempt, favour upon ingratitude, mercy upon sin? And yet Christ's love hath led him to all this; so that well may we spend our days in admiring and adoring of this wonderful love, and be always ravished with the thoughts of it." -Thomas Brooke-

Jesus Christ the predestined Lord of the Universe meets pleonazo with huperperisseuo!

Sin abounds: His grace abounds beyond measure.

Sin abounds: His grace abounds exceedingly.

Sin abounds: His grace overflows the banks!

Huper= Over and beyond

Perisseuo= Exceeding a fixed number/ great abundance/ to abound/ to overflow.

Huperperisseuo= Huper & Perissos Combined.

:bow:

"Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin--of life victorious over every form of death--of God triumphing over evil." -Thomas Allin (Christ Triumphant)-

:bow:

His grace super-abounds!

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/o/joyworld.htm

:bow:

FineLinen · Feb 8, 2004

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...." -2 Cor. 5:19-

The World= Kosmos=

The ungodly multitude.

The whole mass of men alienated from God and hostile to Christ.

The world/ the universe.

The circle of the earth/ the inhabitants of the earth.

"God was in Christ, reconciling the whole ungodly multitude, the whole mass of humanity alienated from God unto Himself."

Reconciling= Katallasso=

To return to favour. To receive into favour.

To change/ exchange.

Katallasso rooted in Allasso

Allasso=

To change/ exchange one thing for another. To transform.

"God was in Christ returning to favour the whole alienated and hostile mass of humanity unto Himself..."

1. God is the Prime-mover in the work of reconciliation. It is God (emphatic ) It was God, as in verse 18.

2. The Father is the Prime-mover through Christ as the Medium.

3. "Was reconciling" (hn katallasswn). These words are to be construed together; the participle with the finite verb marking the process of reconciliation.

4. The emphasis is on the fact that the Father was reconciling, not on the fact that God was in Christ. God was all through and behind the process of reconciliation. The primary reference of the statement is, no doubt, to God's reconciling manifestation in the incarnation and death of Christ; yet, as a fact, it includes much more. God was engaged in reconciling the world from the very beginning, and that in Christ. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincent2cor5.htm

The Love Of God Reaches To The Lowest Hell!

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/o/loveofgo.htm

FineLinen · Feb 9, 2004

The reconciliation is of all things that are in Christ. Salvation is for all those that are in Christ.

No, my friend, the reconciliation of all/pas things reaches to the farthest reaches of sin and despair in the first Adam. Our Father has allowed us to know the secret of His sovereign will, according to St. Paul, the musterion secret being that "all human history shall be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in Him."

"And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole/pas creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him......and you also...."

The word reconcile in the Koine has to do with changing thoroughly, and reaches beyond the Old Covenant of Kaphar (to cover and make atonement), to bringing back to union and fellowship by thorough change by the Father of rectitude.

"For as by one man's disobedience the whole race was rendered sinful

SO ALSO

By the obedience of One, shall the whole race be rendered righteous/ the mass of mankind will be made righteous."

The Corrective Judgements Of God

http://hellbusters.8m.com/all_11.htm

FineLinen · Feb 24, 2004

[move]The fate of the world is in able Hands![/move]

Thankfully, the fate of the world is in God's hands, not ours primarily; God is the only One who is truly faithful to that which He intends to do.

Mustaphile · Feb 26, 2004

Hmmmm...while I am interested in your views Fine Linen, I must say that some of the other participants in this thread are talking in a language that I can understand. The language of some of your own posts and some of the posts that I have read by following your links is so flowery and ..ummm..whats the word...archaic? (or perhaps its the ambiguity, I am not exactly sure) ...that if fails to communicate your message effectively, at least where I am concerned. I am actually interested, but my interest is lost in the sheer volume of posts.

I was quite enjoying the discussion between ZoneChaos and G4m and some others. This was in most part to the fact that they were presenting their views in a language that was easy to assimilate and more succinct in its explanations.

Is it possible for you to encapsulate your views in the same succinct style, FineLinen?

FineLinen · Feb 26, 2004

Mustaphile said:
Hmmmm...while I am interested in your views Fine Linen, I must say that some of the other participants in this thread are talking in a language that I can understand. The language of some of your own posts and some of the posts that I have read by following your links is so flowery and ..ummm..whats the word...archaic? (or perhaps its the ambiguity, I am not exactly sure) ...that if fails to communicate your message effectively, at least where I am concerned. I am actually interested, but my interest is lost in the sheer volume of posts.

I was quite enjoying the discussion between ZoneChaos and G4m and some others. This was in most part to the fact that they were presenting their views in a language that was easy to assimilate and more succinct in its explanations.

Is it possible for you to encapsulate your views in the same succinct style, FineLinen?

My friend I am archaic, and know of only one way to communicate. If you are having a difficult time with the "flowery" words of individuals posted in my links, I would avoid them till another day. The "sheer volume" will require more time than most of us possess; I understand how your interest may become lost.

My advice would be to continue enjoying the discussion between Zone and G4m, and whoever is able to lead you more fully into the excursions of the Glorious One.

One question:

You stated "I am actually interested..." What do you find interesting with the Restitution of all things?

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/

Mustaphile · Feb 26, 2004

FineLinen said:
One question:

You stated "I am actually interested..." What do you find interesting with the Restitution of all things?

Division in the church and division on the scale of all humanity is something that interests me, personally. I often wonder about the causes of these divisions and how God might seek to embrace all these differences. Being of open mind I am willing to look upon the ideas of others and put them into some type of context with my own. I have always thought it is useful in the spirit of love to understand the viewpoint of others, as this allows us to come closer together and seek a more harmonious relationship. So my interests in your ideas on the restitution of all things is my seeking to come to an understanding of our differences, as well as our commonalities and seek to embrace those common understandings.

FineLinen · Feb 28, 2004

Mustaphile said:
Division in the church and division on the scale of all humanity is something that interests me, personally. I often wonder about the causes of these divisions and how God might seek to embrace all these differences. Being of open mind I am willing to look upon the ideas of others and put them into some type of context with my own. I have always thought it is useful in the spirit of love to understand the viewpoint of others, as this allows us to come closer together and seek a more harmonious relationship. So my interests in your ideas on the restitution of all things is my seeking to come to an understanding of our differences, as well as our commonalities and seek to embrace those common understandings.

My friend, the Apostle Paul writing to the young man Timothy declared "For therefore we labour and suffer reproach..." Why? "Because we trust in the living God who is the Saviour of all men, especially believers. These things command and teach..." The experience associated with "going outside the camp, bearing His reproach", appears to me to be the road to the goal of our Father's mind, and heart, and fellowship. In short, a road of dying daily.

In coming to understand the viewpoint of others, it is necessary to walk a mile in that individuals moccasins. In coming to understand the ways of the Father, one must come to experience for themselves the splendour of our Lord Jesus Christ, in whom are many dimensions of life and glory associated with the poikilos wisdom of our Father.

Have you ever read of the experience of Hannah Whittal Smith regarding the restitution of all things? I think you will be able to find the link on Prof. Tom Talbott's page if you're interested.

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html

The Love Of God Reaches To The Lowest Hell

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/o/loveofgo.htm

The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell;
It goes beyond the highest star,
And reaches to the lowest hell;
The guilty pair, bowed down with care,
God gave His Son to win;
His erring child He reconciled,
And pardoned from his sin.

Nothing

Not death.

Not life.

Not angels.

Not principalities.

Not powers.

Not things present.

Not things to come.

Not height, not depth, nor any created thing......

"Shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ our Lord."

Why Did Christ Die?

http://members.aol.com/janilen/whydie/whydie.html

The Atonement

http://members.aol.com/JAntonsson/atonement/atonement.html

Terminology Of The Atonement

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/adams/032TheTerminologyOfTheAtonement.htm

The Atonement As Typified In The Law

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/adams/037TheAtonementAsTypifiedInTheLaw.htm

Rockhead · Mar 7, 2004

FineLinen: Thank-you for the links!

The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell;
It goes beyond the highest star,
And reaches to the lowest hell;
The guilty pair, bowed down with care,
God gave His Son to win;
His erring child He reconciled,
And pardoned from his sin.

Rockhead · Mar 7, 2004

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. -1 Timothy 2:3-6

God wills the salvation of all men. It is good and acceptable in His sight. Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and men gave himself as a ransom for all to be demonstrated fully in the fulness of times.

FineLinen · Mar 8, 2004

Rockhead said:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. -1 Timothy 2:3-6

God wills the salvation of all men. It is good and acceptable in His sight. Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and men gave himself as a ransom for all to be demonstrated fully in the fulness of times.

Hi there Rockhead. :wave:

I wonder what James Montgomery was feeling when he penned the following hymn?

Hail to the Lords anointed, great Davids greater Son!
Hail in the time appointed, His reign on earth begun!
He comes to break oppression, to set the captive free;
To take away transgression and rule in equity.

He comes in succor speedy to those who suffer wrong;
To help the poor and needy, and bid the weak be strong;
To give them songs for sighing, their darkness turn to light,
Whose souls, condemned and dying, were precious in His sight.

By such shall He be fearèd while sun and moon endure;
Beloved, obeyed, reverèd; for He shall judge the poor
Through changing generations, with justice, mercy, truth,
While stars maintain their stations, or moons renew their youth.

He shall come down like showers upon the fruitful earth;
Love, joy, and hope, like flowers, spring in His path to birth.
Before Him, on the mountains, shall peace, the herald, go,
And righteousness, in fountains, from hill to valley flow.

Arabias desert ranger to Him shall bow the knee;
The Ethiopian stranger His glory come to see;
With offerings of devotion ships from the isles shall meet,
To pour the wealth of oceans in tribute at His feet.

Kings shall fall down before Him, and gold and incense bring;
All nations shall adore Him, His praise all people sing;
For He shall have dominion oer river, sea and shore,
Far as the eagles pinion or doves light wing can soar.

For Him shall prayer unceasing and daily vows ascend;
His kingdom still increasing, a kingdom without end:
The mountain dews shall nourish a seed in weakness sown,
Whose fruit shall spread and flourish and shake like Lebanon.

Oer every foe victorious, He on His throne shall rest;
From age to age more glorious, all blessing and all blest.
The tide of time shall never His covenant remove;
His Name shall stand forever, His Name to us is Love.

Rockhead: the Saviour of the world is exactly that. He is not a potential Saviour, but the One who brings to utter completion that for which He has been destined by the Father.

"Through the Son God created the whole universe and to the Son He has ordained all creation shall ultimately belong."

This is the hope of the groaning prisoners of despair; utter deliverance! The creation shall be delivered! Not might be delivered, or could be delivered...."the whole of created life shall be delivered" from the tyranny of slavery into the glorious doxa of the Father. He is victorious over every foe! From age to age His Person is "more glorious", for He is the Lord of the Dance! His fruit spreads and flourishes, "for all nations shall adore Him." All kings shall fall down before Him! Yes, Rockhead, He is the King of kings, and Lord of lords; the alpha of the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and the Omega of the last!

Every tongue, every knee, every heart, every government, every being, all dimensions of the heavens and the earth and the underworld singing in worship and antiphonal chorus!

1 Timothy 2:1-6

"I urge you as most important of all, supplications. prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men: for kings, and for all that are in authority; in order that a tranquil and quiet life may be lead godly and respectfull in every way.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all mankind to be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator/intermediary between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself as a ransom for all mankind to be testified in due time."

"Who will have all mankind to be saved"
"Will have=" Thelo=

Thelo= A strengthened form of Haireomai (To take for oneself)

To will.

To have in mind.

To intend.

To purpose.

To be resolved and determined.

To desire/ to wish/ to love/ to be fond of doing.

To take delight/ to take pleasure in doing.

"Who will thelo all men to be saved"

Saved= Sozo=

To save.

To rescue from the danger of destruction.

To keep safe and sound.

To save a suffering one.

To make well. To heal. To restore to health.

All means some; the Saviour [Soter] of the whole [holos] world [kosmos] will not save the whole [holos] world [kosmos] in due time?

Those who think for a nano-second that thelo means only a wish, or a desire, or a longing that is unattainable, must consider the fact the same word used in 1 Timothy is used by the Saviour of the holos kosmos in Matt. 27:63....

"After three days I WILL [THELO] rise again."

Who would have the audacity to suggest that Jesus Christ only "wanted" or "desired" to rise again from hades? Perhaps, the Saviour of the holos kosmos had a weak wish, or even a strong wish, to rise from the dead?

"I will/thelo rise again."

The Eternal One, the Father of all fathers, never ever simply wishes or hopes for anything. He desires that which is certain to come about, for it is good and acceptable in His heart and mind.

Good= Kalos=

Beautiful/ handsome/ excellent/ eminent/ choice/ surpassing/ precious/ suitable/ commendable.

Beautiful to look at. Magnificent.

Excellent in its nature and characteristics/ adapted to its ends.

Precious.

Affecting the mind agreeably with comfort and confirmation.

The Creation In Christ -George MacDonald-

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken3/unspoken3.htm

FineLinen · Apr 15, 2004

Dear friends: Our Father has by His grace and love, and rectifying power, "Brought us into the partnership of the inheritance of the holy in the light", and has "delivered us from the power of darkness, and transferred us into the Kingdom of His beloved Son." Such is the position of those who are the Church of the Firstborn, the firstfruits of His triumph in the earth, those in whom the Archegos and Prodromos of the rectification uses in the "partnership" of restitution.

"And God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself.....to reconcile to Himself I say, things on earth and things in heaven/ through Him He will collect all again to Himself." -Col. 1:-

"For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell...and to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you..."

Pleased= Eudokeo=

Signifies to be well pleased & to think it good. Eudokeo is not merely an understanding of what is right and good (dokeo), but stressing the willingness and freedom of an intention or resolve regarding what is good.

Choose/ determine/ decide.

It seems good to one/ it is ones good pleasure.

To do willingly/ to prefer/ to choose.

To take pleasure in/ to be well pleased with.

To be favourably inclined.

"His loving design, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself....of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too...." -Eph. 1:-

"According to His good pleasure.."

Good pleasure= Eudokia=

Literally: Good pleasure; implying a gracious purpose with a good object in view; encompassing the idea of resolve, and the willingness with which the resolve is made.

Will/ choice/ goodwill/ kindly intent/ benevolence.

Delight/ pleasure/ desire/ satisfaction.

[move]"The mystery of His intention, with His decision which He has centered in the Messiah, of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Him..."[/move]

FineLinen · Apr 18, 2004

The Second Death & The Restitution Of All Things -Andrew Jukes-

LINK

LINK

George Hawtin: The Restitution Of All Things

LINK

God's Truth For Today

LINK

A.P. Adams -Spirit Of The Word-

LINK

Albert Jenke -Universal Reconciliation-

LINK

-Tom Talbott- The Inescapable Love Of God

Chapter 3

A Legacy Of Fear & Persecution

LINK

Chapter 5

St. Pauls Universalism

http://home.att.net/%7Et.b.talbott/chapter5.PDF

Chapter 11

God, Freedom And Human Destiny

LINK

Tom Talbott Web Page

LINK

Tom Talbott Companion Web Site

http://home.att.net/%7Et.b.talbott/

Universalism And The Bible -Keith DeRose-

LINK

Dr. Ernest L. Martin

The Recognition Of Universal Reconciliation -Part 1-

http://askelm.com/news/n020806.htm

The Recognition Of Universal Reconciliation -Part 2-

http://askelm.com/news/n020812.htm

The Recognition Of Universal Reconciliation -Part 3-

http://askelm.com/news/n020820.htm

"And God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself.....to reconcile to Himself I say, things on earth and things in heaven/ through Him He will collect all again to Himself." -Col. 1:-

"For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell...and to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you..."

Pleased= Eudokeo=

Signifies to be well pleased & to think it good. Eudokeo is not merely an understanding of what is right and good (dokeo), but stressing the willingness and freedom of an intention or resolve regarding what is good.

Choose/ determine/ decide.

It seems good to one/ it is ones good pleasure.

To do willingly/ to prefer/ to choose.

To take pleasure in/ to be well pleased with.

To be favourably inclined.

"His loving design, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself....of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too...." -Eph. 1:-

"According to His good pleasure.."

Good pleasure= Eudokia=

Literally: Good pleasure; implying a gracious purpose with a good object in view; encompassing the idea of resolve, and the willingness with which the resolve is made.

Will/ choice/ goodwill/ kindly intent/ benevolence.

Delight/ pleasure/ desire/ satisfaction.

Michael Mc · Apr 18, 2004

Unable to Know

The story of salvation has been related in many different fashions. Whether its being saved from a burning building or having a glorious gift being presented that all we need to do is grab hold of it. These stories have one unscriptural theme at the root. It assumes that the person is in their right mind, and is capable of choosing salvation for him or herself. Let us consider the real condition of all of mankind. Let us consider just how incapable we are to "choose" the narrow road that leads to everlasting life.

The Bible states that:

Not one is just (Rom.3: 11)

Not one is understanding (Rom.3: 11)

Not one is seeking out God (Rom.3: 11)

We are subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him (God) who subjected us to it: (Roman 8:20)

Therefore every man at his best state is altogether vanity. (Psalms 39:5)

The things of God are foolishness to us. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

We seek our own interests not the Lord's; (Philippians 2:21.)

We are all liars. (Romans 3:4)

No one is has the capability to choose salvation. The Bible makes it clear. It may be unsettling for some to realize that God is in complete control of the salvation of each of us.

As the Bible states:

ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

1Co 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

1Co 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

All things are of God. Even our supposed free will isnt all that free. Consider what the bible says about men "choosing" salvation. It is God who:

draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65; 12:32; 14:16; 15:16)

appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48)

chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4)

predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30)

chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14)

grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29)

calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9)

predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11)

predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5)

makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13)

Our destiny is up to God. He is in control and theres nothing we can do about it! Hallelujah! Praise God! He has not left us to our own fallen underqualified minds to choose our eternal destiny. He created you, me, your neighbor and even the lady walking her dog across the street. He created us all, we are His workmanship and He will see His creation done to His glory! Our salvation is assured, there is no doubt to be had, Who better than the creator of all to see each of us through to Him? Can He do it? Is He able?

Matthew 19: 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Genesis 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded, that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Will He?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

2 Peter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

John 1 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men
unto justification of life.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially [ not exclusively ] of those that believe.

Can we really expect an all powerful God to fail when searching out His lost sheep?

Religious men say:
1. It is possible to choose salvation from the fallen state of Adam nature, flesh.
2. It is impossible for God to save all men, because of mens ability to choose life, or death.

God says:
1. It is impossible for man to comprehend the things of the Spirit of Life, therefore it is impossible to get saved just by mere human choice.
2. It is possible to save all men because all things are possible to him.

To God be All the Glory!

Spiderrr · Apr 21, 2004

You didn't answer my questions. What's the point of the Great Commissio, preaching the gospel? Is God going to save people after they're dead? You say a lot of colorful words in big colored letters but are they really adhering to the word of God? The Bible clearly says that not everyone will find the narrow road to life. Play word games all you like, it's there in black and white.

Lynn: The Scriptures are in black and white and require the Son of God to open ones mind to understand them! And between the lines of black and white are poikilos colours like the manifild wisdom of God, that also requires the working of dianago to behold.

But to answer your question. Our Father selects what is known as the first-fruits of His grace, who with Him participate in the release of the whole of created life from the tyranny of sin, "for the creation was made subject to slavery, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope." And what is the hope to which our Father has subjected His creation?

"And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be delivered/ rescued from the shackles of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

And so Lynn, in black and white (some see it in poikilos colours), our Father declares by the mouth of St. Paul that He will ultimately deliver the whole of His creation from the bondage of sin. The process begins with the first-fruits, and descends to as far as the curse is found! Joy to the world, the Lord is come....no more let sin and sorrow reign nor thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow, far as the curse is found.

The groaning creation is to be delivered from the slavery of sin! And the Church of the First-born, those who have not chosen Him, but rather have been grasped by His grace to bear his name, will in union and relationship with the Living One, be active participants in the glorious consummation; for God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

I will ask you again Lynn: do you know what was the result of Jesus Christ preaching to the dead who were "disobedient and refused obedience long ago...during the construction of the Ark"?

Do you know what the Scriptures declare regarding the Zao life of the Zao God, and what the earliest Church fathers believed in this regard?

FineLinen · Apr 27, 2004

Schaff-Hertzog Encyclopedia Of Religious Knowledge

"Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church (q.v.) until after 500 A.D. inclined to it.

In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large.

In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc12&page=96&view=

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine - Dr. J.W. Hanson-

http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd1.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

[move]"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only/monos, but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world (cosmos)."[/move] -1 John 2:2-

FineLinen · Apr 27, 2004

Hi there Spiderrr and Michael Mc. Our Father continues to bring His broken ones home to His gracious and loving Heart. His story is indeed one of infinite love seeking till it find: for our Lord, whose essence is love, never fails and His unchanging purposes lie within Himself.

The two passages of the Ancient Words in 1 Peter 3 & 4 are some of the most difficult for those who cannot grasp our Lord's ongoing reconciliation on the other side of the veil. The word zao, is full of Life, the Life of the Deathless One. It is that Life to which we are being drawn, consumed, and find our being; for "in Him we live and move and have our being."

The following Scriptures are the basis for our Lord and Saviour ministering to the dead in Hades.

Jesus Christ Holds The Keys Of Death & Hades

The Old Covenant

Isa. 9:2....Isa. 45:2,3...Isa. 49:9,25....Zech 9:11...Psl. 68:18....Psl. 69:33...Psl. 107:16

The New Covenant

1 Peter 3:21....Matt. 12:29....Phil. 2:9,10....Col. 2:15...Eph. 4:8,9

Primitive Witnesses

Acts Of The Apostle Thomas

"Christ, the Saviour of every creature, thou who wentest down even to hades. And didst bring out thence those shut in for many ages."

Origen Regarding Psl. 68:18

"Christ drew up and set free from the recesses of hades, the souls that were held in captivity."

Eusebius Of Alexandria

"Christ will descend in order that all, both on earth and in heaven and in hades, may obtain salvation from Him."

Eusebius Of Caesarea 315 A.D.

"Christ, caring for the salvation of all, and bursting the eternal gates, opened a way of return to life for the dead bound in chains of death."

Saint Athanasius

"While the devil thought to kill one, he is deprived of all cast out of hades, and sitting by the gates, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour."

Basil Of Seleucia

"That which happened to the visible tomb of Christ (i.e. its being emptied on His rising), the same happened to hades the invisible."

St. Hilary 354 A.D.

"Christ ascended on high took (captured) those who had been captured by the devil."

M.F. Victorinus 360 A.D.

"The Saviour descends into hades by that passion of the cross in order that He may set free every soul."

St. Ambrose

"In the liberation of all, no one remains a captive; at the time of the Lord's passion he alone (the devil) was injured, who lost all the captives he was keeping."

St. Basil 370 A.D.

"The true Shepherd brought out of the prison of hades, and handed over to the holy angels, the sheep for whom He died."

St. Gregory Of Nazianzus 385 A.D.

"Until Christ loosed by His blood all who groan under tartarean chains."

Unknown Origin (From Christus Patiens)

"All of whom (the dead) Thou shalt bring forth as Thy spoils from hades...I believe Thou wilt bring forth from hades as many mortals as it has imprisoned."

St. Ambrose 375 A.D.

"The Lord descends to the infernal world, in order that even those, who were in perpetual abodes, should be set free from their perpetual bonds."

"Christ, when amongst the dead, gave pardon to those in the infernal abodes, destoying the law of death."

The Ambrosiaster

"Christ descending to the infernal abodes condemned death, taking from him those whom he was keeping."

"Christ snatched from hades all the devil, lost, together with Christ, all whom he was keeping."

"Christ went down to the depths of hell (Tartarus) and recalled the souls, bound by sin, to life, out of the devil's jaws."

Maximus Of Turin

"Hell (Tartarus) yields up those it contains to the upper world: the earth sends to heaven those whom it buries."

St. Jerome 378 A.D.
"Our Lord descends and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up."

"In the blood of Thy passion thou didst set free those who were being kept bound in the prison of hell."

"The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners."

Caesarus Of Arles

"The eternal night of hell is illuminated as Christ descends the bonds of the damned, torn asunder, fell away every cry of the groaning still. The captive souls loosed from bonds go forth from hell (Tartarus), and the Apostle's words come true, i.e., in Jesus' name every knee bends of things in heaven, and earth, and under the earth."

Epiphanius

"Christ, like a swift-winged hawk, snatched away all that He had from the beginning, from the devil and left him deserted."

"Christ arose, and the prison of hades was emptied."

St. Chrysostom 398 A.D.

"While the devil imagined that he had got hold of Christ (in hades), he lost all in fact whom he was keeping.

Cyril Of Alexandria 412 A.D.

"Christ left the devil there solitary and deserted."

"Christ, wandering down even to hades, has emptied the dark, hidden, unseen treasures."

Maximus Of Turin

"Christ carried off to heaven mankind whose cause He undertook, snatched from the jaws of hades."

Theodoret 430 A.D.

To the devil Christ declares...."I mean to open the prison of death for the rest, but will shut up thee only. Thou wast justly despoiled of all thy subjects.

Proclus, Bishop of Constantinople 434 A.D.

"Today Christ emptied the entire treasury of death."

"All the dead, wondering at His passion, cry for joy, we are healed by His stripes."

Saint Chrysostom- Cyril of Alexandria In reference to 1 Peter St. Chrysostom wrote...

"Christ, he asserts, not merely opened, but broke in pieces the gates of brass, in order to make the prison useless, where there is neither door, nor bar, whosoever enters is not detained. What God destroys, who can set up again? Earthly kings indeed set free prisoners, yet leave untouched the prison gates; but Christ broke in pieces the gates of brass. Christ went to the utterly black and joyless portion of hades, and turned it into heaven, transferring all its wealth, the race of man, into His royal treasury. In this, too, Christ surpasses kings, for they send messengers, but He went in person to set the captives free.

So again, he says: "Our Lord, when He was in hades, set free all who were kept prisoners by death."

Cyril Of Alexandria 412 A.D.

"The devil was deprived of all power of being able to do anything for the future. The souls of men who had been caught in his toils to their ruin, came out of the underground gates, and, leaving the hiding-places of the pit escape"

"Traversing the lowest recesses of the infernal regions, after that He had preached to the spirits there, He led forth the captives in His strength. For when death devoured Him who was the Lamb on behalf of all, it vomited forth all men in Him and with Him. Now when sin has been destroyed, how should it be but that death, too, should wholly perish?"......On the death of Christ, "all iniquity stopped its mouth, and the rule of death was destroyed, all sin (tes hamartias, sin generally) having been taken away, so, then, the sin of all having been taken away, we can justly say, 'O death where is thy sting?"

Theodoret, the Blessed, 423 A.D.

Theodoret became Bishop of Cyrus (Cyrrhus), in Syria...he wrote of the liberation of every soul from hades....

I shall shut up thee only..."Thou," says Christ to satan, "art justly despoiled of all thy subjects. Thou shalt vomit forth all that thou hast already swallowed. I shall free all from death for I paid the debt for the race. As the debt has been paid, it is right that those confined on account of it should be set free from their prison."

FineLinen · Apr 28, 2004

Our God is a consuming Fire....

Fire Is A Beneficient Agent

How shallow is the common view of "fire" as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of....

"Life"....Isa. 4:5

"Purification"....Matt. 3:3

"Atonement"....Lev. 16:27

"Transformation".....2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God's fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, "aflame to the very tips of our fingers." And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God's Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God's wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a "fire unfolding itself" (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and "the appearance of fire." (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ's eyes are a flame of "fire" (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of "fire" are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said "to go before God," His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God's ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4...Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes--call it, if you please, a paradox--in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, "Thy God is a consuming Fire," and "Thy God is a merciful God" (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)--words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God's cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)--suggestive words. And, so again, "By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh." (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by "fire." (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often "fire" is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in "fire:" God answers Gideon by "fire;" and David by "fire." (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by "fire;" and in "fire" Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of "fire." So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by "fire." (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of "fire" God gave His law. And in "fire" the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that "fire," like judgment, so far from being the sinner's portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God's judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is "already kindled," always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. "I am come to send fire on the earth," for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the "fire is to try every man's work." He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned "so as by fire," by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, "He that is near Me is near fire," expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work "like a refiner's fire." And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that "our God is a consuming Fire," i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but "Our God is a consuming Fire"--a consuming Fire, "by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed."

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that "coals of fire" go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are "coals of fire" to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious "fires" of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner's doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these "fires" not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise--

[move]"Behold, I make all things new." [/move]

-Thomas Allin (Christ Triumphant)-

Universal Reconciliation

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