Universal Reconciliation

[john14_20]

If we die, without salvation, we are still evil in the eyes of God. God will not even look at us in Hell, becasue His nature of being God will not permit it. By His perfect nature He is limited: He cannot look on us in Hell. He can't look on us even now, excpet through our Mediator, Jesus Christ. After you are saved, you are reborn a new creatiojn in Christ, and after death, you are pure in the eyes of God, if you were saved before you died.
"

Hey ZC!

I struggle with the vision of God you paint. You speak of a Father who cannot even look at us because we are sinners, yet Jesus came and became us, spoke with us even ate with us!

The Father and the Son are not that different. In fact they are not different at all.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.

If Jesus can eat with sinners, then God can in fact look upon sin - for Jesus is God.

 

[john14_20]

With all of this in God's nature... if we disobey him, He must punish us, becasue it is the right thing to do. And, while there are specific finite actions we are punished for, there is something else that is infinite: Our sinful nature. The punishment for this? Death. It is mandotory for all. It must be paid, for the "wages of sin is death." There are only two poeple that can pay for you sinful nature... you (by default) and Jesus Christ (if you ask Him to.)

The punishment is death? Well then it can't be eternal torture then. It can't be both.

If we fail to accept this salvation from our payment of death, then we must be punished for our nature when we die, and we have to pay that punishment instead of Christ.

If Christ took the punishment for us and if the punishment is eternal torture, then that is what Christ must take for us. But He didn't do that. He died.

Also, punishment is always corrective. If punishment has no corrective value it is sadistic torture. This is beyond God.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[ZoneChaos]

I agree that Faith will NOT be necessary after physical death........because - then salvation will be by SIGHT,.... when all the unsaved that are resurrected will believe by SIGHT not faith.

Consider the following study.....even Jesus's disciples WOULD NOT believe until Jesus over and over again revealed himself unto them. Even their salvation was by SIGHT......they had to see something first.

But ket me ask... are you saying that salvation can by by anything other than Faith?

I had thought that you would disagree that there would be no need of faith in heaven, instrad you suprise me by agreeing that there won't, but then go on and suggest that salvation can come by somewthign othe then Faith...

Please considered this study:

http://pub29.ezboard.com/fjesusthelightoftheworldfrm122.showMessage?topicID=78.topic

What disturbs me about this study is toward the end... The author states that:

"Just 'believing' is just the beginning of the process of salvation."

First, I would ask what he means by believing, and why he put in in quotes... Is he saying:

"Just [having Faith in the saving grace of God, and accepting Jesus Christ as your perosnla Lord and savior] is just the beginning of the process..."?

The other thing that bothers me is that it seems to me that he beleives that believing is not enough, and that, "at some time according to God's will, God will send His Spirit to begin the work in that soul." It seems he is saying that after belief, salvation is still not realized, and that more "work" must be done by God before God grants salvation.

 

[ZoneChaos]

We may be getting in the Trinity Doctrone, which I fully support. It may be that a key to accepting universalism is to reject in part or in whole, the Trinity Doctrine, I don't know. I have met universalists that seem to accept the Doctrine. That being said...

Hey ZC!

I struggle with the vision of God you paint. You speak of a Father who cannot even look at us because we are sinners, yet Jesus came and became us, spoke with us even ate with us!

Trinity in mind.. I speak of God in His glory who cannot look upon sin. This is Biblically supported...

Matthew and Mark both record Jesus response when He took upon Him the sin of the world: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" This is a quote of a Psalm of David: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

God forsook Jesus when He was on the cross. If we accept that Jess is God, then we must assume that "My God, My God" was a referecn to the Father in Heaven. The Father, doe snot share our Human nature, as the Son does. It was within the relationship of the Trinity that the Father turned from the Son, becasue of sin.

The Father and the Son are not that different. In fact they are not different at all.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

They are one, in that they are God, but they vary greatly in their natures. Jesus has a Hypostatic union of being God and being man.. the Father does not share this with the Son. This is a unique nature of Jesus. This makes Jesus special to us as a mediator. If the Father and Son were exact in nature then there would be no need for mediation.

While on earth, Jesus shared our human nature, but not our sin nature. It was not until he took upon himself our sin, that he was forsaken by God, and God turned from Him. For us, this is the reality for our lives, without Jesus Christ. We are forsaken of God, until we come to him and recieve forgiveness, by acepting Jesus as the one who took the sin from us, by Faith, through God's Grace.

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?

Further on through verse we see that they can "see the Father" by example, but they still must also believe.. they still must excercise Faith in Jesus that what He says He is, who He says He is, and the things He does are of God... are of the Father. Faith is still necessary. Plus, Faith in the existance, or even the knowledge of the existance of God will not save you. If by seeing Jesus, the saw the Father, this wouold not save them. Thomas, touching the wounds was not enough to save Him. It was enough to beleive that was he saw was real, but not enough to save him. Salvation requires Faith in the plan of salvation, bnot just knowledge or Faith that it or that God exists.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.

If Jesus can eat with sinners, then God can in fact look upon sin - for Jesus is God.

Habakkuk 1:13 is spekaing of God when he states: "You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness...". How does this fit into your statement above?

As Jesus Christ in our intercessor, He can obviously look upon sin, thorugh His human nature. But Why is intercession necessary at all? I don't doubt Jesus is God, but Jesus is not the Father. And Jesus being God is only able to look upon sin because of His dual nature.. since that nature is not shared by the Holy Spirit or by the Father, they cannot, and thus God cannot. Very confusing ot be sure, and it takes a good understanding of the internal and external relationship of the Trinity to grasp.

BUt if it is so, then even for Thomas, for Abraham, for everyone, it is necessary to come to salvation by one way alone: Faith. Without it, there is no salvation.. and if there be no Faith after death, there can be no salvation after death. Simply knowing will not be enough after death

 

[ZoneChaos]

The punishment is death? Well then it can't be eternal torture then. It can't be both.

Actually it is.. for the soul, Death is an existance... as human's we need a body to live.. God, the angels, they do not, but we do... We get a new glorified body in heaven. For us, life is the body, without it we are dead.

More so, death is a result of sin, we will be without sin, thus without the touch of death in heaven, but for those not in heaven, they will be forever dead, yet aware of it at the same time. For the soul, death is not finite, but infinite...

If Christ took the punishment for us and if the punishment is eternal torture, then that is what Christ must take for us. But He didn't do that. He died.

The wages of sin is not torture of anykind. It is death. Jesus had the power we do not of being blameless and overcoming death. It bothers me that eternal hell is viewed as a punishemnt.. as though God came up with it as an after thought. Our destiny is death, not life. God gives as a gift, a new destiny of life. We are not destined for life, we are given the option of it.

Also, punishment is always corrective. If punishment has no corrective value it is sadistic torture. This is beyond God.

Exactly why I don't view is it punishment, nor as corrective. It is damnation.. it is a state resulting from another state. You are sinful, then you are eternally dead. One leads ot the other. Eternal death, and thus eternal seperation from God is a result of having a sinful nature, pure and simple.

 

[Received]

See, I very much respect this view, and it would not be a lie to say that I have a small percentage of this logic still flowing in my system from the arguments of Lewis. Quite interestingly, the only difference between the belief in an eternal Hell and a temporal one is not from scripture -- scripture can represent either way --, but according to the person and his view of man's capacity to repent given whether the human will has limitations.

While the C.S. Lewis conception is a million times greater than the one presented by a more conservative theology, as ZoneChaos has eloqently presented, I still find lack of support from Jewish history, scripture, and the fact that eternity is...much longer than one can imagine. Men live entire lives of psychological distortion, and the effects can lead to extreme ones, such as schizophrenia among other things. How can we imagine that the pains of Hell are as this and greater -- this I have difficulty accepting.

 

[deg]

John14:20: Nowhere are hell and the lake of fire referred to as the same thing. I just have a funny feeling that the Lake of Fire is something we've understood for many years, but write it off as an unseen tool being prepared for a final act. I think the truth lies far deeper than this; the Lake of Fire is not a place for the purpose of torture, although entering into it may prove to be exceedingly destructive and hurtful, but it's purpose runs deeper.

God is the saviour of all men. Period. Especially them that believe...those men of Spiritual Israel are of special import to the purposes of God. They shall rule and reign with Him. What will they reign over I wonder?

ZoneChaos, I see what you are saying, and it is an interesting belief system, well explained.

Why does Timothy say "...especially those who believe"? Christ is the savior for all... but not of all. He came for everyone, but the salvation which is for all, must also be accepted. From this, not all will be saved, though all were given the chance.

The scripture says quite cleary that He is the saviour of all men. Nothing could change that fact, no interpretation to try and twist those words could change that fact. All men are saved by God, the faithful, even more so. This, it seems, is made very clear by the statement. Doesn't it seem like you're trying to alter a clearly focused verse? I mean seriously, read the verse again. It's pretty clear.

I think Paul may be speaking about Acts 3:21:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Holy prophets? What do they have to say?

Zeph 3:8
Therefore wait for Me, declares the LORD, For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

WHY IS HE POURING FIRE AND ANGER AND PUNISHMENT OUT?? Let's keep reading.

Zep 3:9
For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, That all of them may call on the name of the LORD, To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

How about another prophet?

Isaiah 25:6-8
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

I don't think God created us, or would have created us, knowing that the vast portion of us would be endlessly tormented in a place of utter torture. If He loses one sheep, He will go out and find it. What if He loses 99? I think we underestimate our Father's restorative capacity and purpose.

 

[FineLinen]

I Timothy 4:10

"We accept both the strict discipline of training and the stern struggle of the contest, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and above all the Saviour of those who believe." -Wm. Barclay New Testament-

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those who believe." -KJV-

"We labour"= kopiao=

To grow weary/ tired/ exhausted.

To labour with wearisome effort.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2872&version=

"We labour and suffer reproach"

Reproach= Oneidizo=

To upbraid. To revile.

Of deserved/ undeserved reproach.

To cast favours received in one's teeth.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3679&version=

"Because we trust"

Trust= Elipizo=

To hope.

To wait for salvation with joy and absolute confidence.

To trust in hope.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1679&version=

Elipizo Rooted In Elpis

Elpis=

Joyful expectation in the Author of hope who is the foundation of things hoped for.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1680&version=

"We trust in the living God"

Living= Zao=

Real life.

Living water having power in itself.

Blessed/ Endless/ Full of vigour/ To be in full vigour.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2198&version=

"The Living God who is"

Is= Esti=

To be.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2076&version=

The Saviour of all men"

Saviour=Soter

Saviour/ Deliverer/ Preserver.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4990&version=

Soter Rooted In Sozo

Sozo=

To save.

To keep safe and sound.

To rescue from danger or destruction.

To save suffering one from perishing.

To make well. To heal. To restore to health.

To preserve one who is in danger of destruction.

To save or rescue.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4982&version=

"The Saviour of all men"

All= Pas=

Each/ Every/ Any/ All/ The Whole/ Everyone/ Everything.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=

"Specially of those who believe."

Specially= Malista=

Chiefly.

Most of all.

Above all.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3122&version=

"Specially of those who believe"

Who believe= Pistos=

Faithful.

One who has kept his plighted faith.

Worthy of trust. Can be relied upon.

Believing/ confiding/ trusting.

One who trusts in God's promises.

Easily persuaded.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4103&version=

Pistos Rooted In Peitho

Peitho=

To persuade.

To strive to please one.

To be persuaded.

To be induced to believe.

To be persuaded or a thing or person.

To listen. To obey.

To yield to and comply with in trust and confidence.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3982&version=

Please note:

Our Lord is the Soter of all men, "especially/malista" them that believe. Especially is NOT "Monon"!!

Monos= Only/ Exclusively.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3441&version=

"And He is the hilasmos/propitiation for our sins: AND not for our sins ONLY/Monos; but also for the sins of the whole/holos world."

 

[FineLinen]

John14:20: Nowhere are hell and the lake of fire referred to as the same thing. I just have a funny feeling that the Lake of Fire is something we've understood for many years, but write it off as an unseen tool being prepared for a final act. I think the truth lies far deeper than this; the Lake of Fire is not a place for the purpose of torture, although entering into it may prove to be exceedingly destructive and hurtful, but it's purpose runs deeper.

God is the saviour of all men. Period. Especially them that believe...those men of Spiritual Israel are of special import to the purposes of God. They shall rule and reign with Him. What will they reign over I wonder?

ZoneChaos, I see what you are saying, and it is an interesting belief system, well explained.

The scripture says quite cleary that He is the saviour of all men. Nothing could change that fact, no interpretation to try and twist those words could change that fact. All men are saved by God, the faithful, even more so. This, it seems, is made very clear by the statement. Doesn't it seem like you're trying to alter a clearly focused verse? I mean seriously, read the verse again. It's pretty clear.

I think Paul may be speaking about Acts 3:21:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Holy prophets? What do they have to say?

Zeph 3:8
Therefore wait for Me, declares the LORD, For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

WHY IS HE POURING FIRE AND ANGER AND PUNISHMENT OUT?? Let's keep reading.

Zep 3:9
For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, That all of them may call on the name of the LORD, To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

How about another prophet?

Isaiah 25:6-8
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

I don't think God created us, or would have created us, knowing that the vast portion of us would be endlessly tormented in a place of utter torture. If He loses one sheep, He will go out and find it. What if He loses 99? I think we underestimate our Father's restorative capacity and purpose.

Hi there Deg Our Father has spoken of the Restitution of all things from the foundations of the world through the mouths of His holy prophets. There are a great host of unbelievers in the steeplehouses of the land who believe all/pas means some, and cannot possibly be anything else but a metonomy or a synecdoche. So then, all/pas knees will not bow, and all/pas tongues will not confess His Lordship, and if they do, it will be by perfunctary genuflections.

Oh the veil is very thick that covers all/some peoples and all/some nations, but it is encouraging to know that some tears shall be wiped away by the Glory One.....

"The Lord is good to all and His tender mercy embraces all His creatures."

 

[FineLinen]

The Church Father's Testify

To The Ultimate Triumph Of Jesus Christ -Dr. Jack Jacobsen-

Many people today think that the entire subject of the Restoration of All Things as spoken by the prophets is a new doctrine. However, the opposite is true, as a serious study of the sayings of the Historical Church Fathers reveals. If the concept of Restoration seems to be a modern idea, it's only because the understanding of this glorious plan of God is new to our modern minds. Restoration, in fact, is as old as Scripture and is a truth once taught to and received by the saints of antiquity. The modern church has become blinded to the facts of Restoration as given in the scriptures, but this is not a blindness shared by the early church. The present-day understanding of restoration is simply a return to the original truths as given by revelation to the apostles and prophets of old.

From the very beginning of the Christian church, learned men have applied themselves to the study of the scriptures, seeking answers from the Word of God to questions concerning God's ultimate will for His creation. What is the purpose of judgment? What does Christ's victory over evil mean to mankind? Is there a point at which the mercy of God fails? Historical church writings contain a wealth of information on such topics. Let us look at what some of the Ancient Fathers have said on the subject of Restoration.

Irenaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, lived from 130 to about 200 A.D. In this treatise, Against Heretics, he writes in Book III, Chapter 23, paragraph 6:

“Wherefore also He [God] drove him [Adam] out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of Life, not because He [God] envied him [Adam] the tree of Life, as some dare to assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not continue always a sinner, and that sin which surrounded him should not be immortal, and that the evil interminable and irremediable.”

Augustine (354-430 A.D.), 'one of the four great Latin Church Fathers (Augustine, Ambrose, Jerome and Gregory the Great), wrote:

“There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments.”

Origen, a pupil and successor of Clement of Alexandria, lived from 185 to 254 A.D. He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church. In his book, De Principiis, he writes:

“We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet.”

Howard F. Vos in his book Highlights of Church History states that Origen believed the souls of all that God created would some day return to rest in the bosom of the Father. Those who rejected the gospel now would go to hell to experience a purifying fire which would cleanse even the wicked; all would ultimately reach the state of bliss.

Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church, says in his Catechetical Orations:

“Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself.”

Neander says that Gregory of Nyssa taught that all punishments are means of purification, ordained by divine love to purge rational beings from moral evil, and to restore them back to that communion with God.... so that they may attain the same blessed fellowship with God Himself.

Eusebius of Caesarea lived from 265 to 340 A.D. He was the Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine and a friend of Constantine, great Emperor of Rome. His commentary of Psalm II says:

“The Son 'breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jemniah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.”

Gregory of Nazianzeu lived from 330 to 390 A.D. He was the Bishop of Constantinople. In his Oracles 39:19 we read:

“These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice.”

Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.), writes on Psalm I:

“Our Saviour has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. ‘Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,’ for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.”

Jerome, who revised the old Latin Translations and translated the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin, lived from 340 to 420 A.D. In his comments on Zephaniah 3:8-10 he says:

“The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out an the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal.... in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus’ Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.”

Athanasius, called the Great Father of Orthodoxy, writes:

“While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.”

Again, Jerome comments on Isaiah 14:7, saying:

“Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners.”

The collection of the previous testimonies are only a representative portion of the great leaders of the Church in the first four hundred years.

A well known German theologian named Ethelbert Stauffer writes in his book, New Testament Theology, these words in his chapter entitled "Universal Homecoming":

“The primitive church never gave up the hope that in His will to save, the All-Merciful and All-Powerful God would overcome even the final "no" of the self-sufficient world.”

Again, he says,

“Paul is quite confident that there will be possibilities of salvation for men after death. It is possible.... that even in the world to come, hope for the future will not cease.”

And he concludes:

“In I Corinthians 15:24, 26, Paul speaks of destruction of hostile demonic powers, which by their fall disturbed the original course of universal history. But after this great clearance, all other creatures find their way back to themselves and to their Creator in their subjection to the Son, who finally subjects Himself to the Father "that God may be all in all."”

The Reformer Martin Luther had hope for all. In his letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg in 1522, Luther wrote:

“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future.”

Bengel's book, Gnomon, quotes Luther's exposition of Hosea as accepting the idea that Christ appeared to souls of some who in the time of Noah had been unbelieving, that they might recognize that their sins were forgiven through His sacrifice.

Let us then take seriously the testimony of our Ancient Fathers, beginning with the Apostle Paul. He and those who followed after desired to deliver to us today that faith and truth which was given them by God Himself. As one pastor remarked recently concerning the subject of God bringing all back to Himself,

“We are beginning to see what the Apostle Paul saw in I Corinthians 15:22 and following."

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order.… For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.... And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

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[move]"And every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them heard I saying.....unto the Lamb be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory and the dominion for ever.[/move]

 

[FineLinen]

I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST -Dr. William Barclay-

Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many Biblical commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament, "Barclay New Testament," and "The Daily Study Bible Series."

Gathered Into The Love Of God

I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.

Gathered Into The Character Of God

Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.

Not The Argument Of Others

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

His Final Triumph: All In All

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

Pruning To Cause Growth- Remedial Punishment

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

His Grace Has No Limits

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.

Ultimate And Complete Triumph

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.


[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 65-67, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]

The Priestly Work Of The Christos

"It reaches forward into the future, for the work of Jesus Christ as high priest is never ended. Even in the heavenly places he carries on his priestly work, for we have a high priest who has passed through the heavens. He appears in the presence of God on our behalf. He continues a priest for ever. He is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intersession for them.

Here is the picture of Jesus Christ saving in past time, saving in present time, and saving for ever. And in this picture and behind it there is something even more far-reaching. Its real meaning is that the life and death and the cross of Christ are not, as it were, some isolated incident. The incarnation and the crucification are not, as it were, emergency measures. This was not done because everything else had been tried and failed. The life and death of Jesus are not simply events in time; they are windows into the eternal heart of God, whereby we see the suffering and redeeming love of God which has been suffering and redeeming since the beginning of time and will go beyond the end of time. In Jesus Christ we see God, not as God for a moment became, but as God for ever was, for ever is, and for ever will be."

Many Witnesses One Lord -William Barclay-

http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showbook?item_id=1112

 

[ZoneChaos]

The scripture says quite cleary that He is the saviour of all men. Nothing could change that fact, no interpretation to try and twist those words could change that fact.

I am not arguing that the Bible does not say that Jesus is the savior of all men, I am arguing that "savior of all men" does not mean that "all men will be saved".

Now, I understand that logic would have one conclude that the first means the second, or at least implies it. And by itsefl, I would wholly agree. however, I also have this to content with, which I also fully accept as true:

Matt. 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be [condemned]".

Matt 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen,"

Rom. 9:27 "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly,"

Let me ask you, how do you view these verse in the light of Universalism? Also, What does the bible say about damnation?

 

[G4m]

I am not arguing that the Bible does not say that Jesus is the savior of all men, I am arguing that "savior of all men" does not mean that "all men will be saved".

By definition he must save all to be the savior of all. Is He the judge of all or just some?

John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Why bother giving Him all things if He won't save us all?

John 3
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Now, I understand that logic would have one conclude that the first means the second, or at least implies it. And by itsefl, I would wholly agree. however, I also have this to content with, which I also fully accept as true:

Matt. 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Few will find it now.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be [condemned]".

Let me ask you, why aren't preachers picking up serpents or drinking poison?

Mark 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Matt 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen,"

Few are chosen now.

Rom. 9:27 "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly,"

But then Paul said:

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So the FEW get chosen and saved now. But, why then the uncountable multitude here?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Let me ask you, how do you view these verse in the light of Universalism? Also, What does the bible say about damnation?

Doing a word search, it appears that the word mostly rendered judgement is also rendered damnation. Judgement may be painful but its for good:

Judgement is with truth:


Psalm 96
13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Romans 2
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Jesus' throne established in mercy for hasting and learning righteousness through judgement:


Isaiah 16
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Isaiah 26
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isaiah 32
1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.

Zechariah 7
9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

Jesus said He came not for condemnation:

John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
There are some that reject the judgement:

Revelation 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

However, God has sworn by himself that all will confess:


Isaiah 45
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And so be saved:

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Because He has enduring mercy:

Psalm 136
1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.


God's purpose in anger?

Zephaniah 3
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

 

[G4m]

Bearing in mind the common belief that this lifetime provides the only chance of salvation and that God wants all men to be saved:



1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Why does He keep blinding people?



Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.







Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.



Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.



Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



Why hide?



Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.



Why hate?



Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



Why harden?



Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.



Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



Why doesn't Jesus just explain all things to us now?



Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.



Why doesn't God just give us all faith now?



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;



Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



Why hold back the word?



Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:


If this lifetime is it, why does He keep going against His own will?

 

[FineLinen]

I am not arguing that the Bible does not say that Jesus is the savior of all men, I am arguing that "savior of all men" does not mean that "all men will be saved".

Now, I understand that logic would have one conclude that the first means the second, or at least implies it. And by itsefl, I would wholly agree. however, I also have this to content with, which I also fully accept as true:

Matt. 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which believeth not shall be [condemned]".

Matt 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen,"

Rom. 9:27 "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly,"

Let me ask you, how do you view these verse in the light of Universalism? Also, What does the bible say about damnation?

My friend, "..We both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Saviour/deliverer/preserver of all men, (all mankind), especially/malista of those that believe." You will note that the Living One is not the potential Soter of all mankind.....He is the Saviour of all mankind. Believers, or those that the Scripture defines as the first-fruits of His grace, are in the malista dimension of His grace and love. But, and this is a large BUT indeed, malista is not monos/only. Our Lord is the Soter of all mankind, malista them that believe.

Those that grasp the restitution of all things as spoken by the prophets from the earliest ages, do not believe that there is no judgement/condemnation, for God is a Farmer of the most exquisite kind. Whatsoever you sow, that shall you also reap. The way to destruction is indeed broad, but our Lord is the God of devising means of causing the banished to be restored.

"We must die, and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But God does not take away life; instead He deviseth ways for the banished to be restored."

And so it is, our Father's wrath/ogre is based in His oregamai, and is the reaching out from Himself to touch and grasp the object of His love by way of punishment which is not an end in itself, but leads to rectitute and the setting right of what is wrong. The Greek scholar, Dr. William Barclay writes that "in all of Greek secular literature, 'kolasis' is never anything but remedial punishment. This is exactly what the Scriptures teach regarding the punishment of our Glorious Lord and Soter.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished."

Do you know what punished/kolazo means?

To lop or prune (as trees and wings).

To curb check and restrain.

To chastise. To correct. To punish.

If you have done a word study on damnation you will find that there are three words in the Koine in this regards. The one used by our Lord is krima (in Matt. 7) and is the condemnation of a wrong with a decision that ranges from severe to mild. It is a condematory sentence and the punishment with which one is sentenced. The word is used regarding the Pharisees and their long prayers for a pretense, and speaks of greater/perissos krisis. So, all krisis is not equal and ranges in intensity, but always our Father's object in correction is setting right what is wrong. He punishes with an objective in mind, not as an end in itself.

The Koine "krima" is found in 28 passages in the New Covenant and is translated as destruction/ waste/ perdition and perisheth in the K.J.V. It is used in reference to the "waste/krima of ointment" upon the feet of Jesus in worship as well as vessels "fitted for destruction/krima."

And what does fitted for destruction mean?

Fitted= Katartizo=

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has broken or rent.

To complete/ to strengthen / to perfect.

To make one what he ought to be.

And so my friend, krisis moves along the line of making one what he or she ought to be by breaking and rending and repairing what has been broken or rent.

 

[FineLinen]

I Believe In The Restitution Of All Things

The Second Death & The Restitution Of All Things -Andrew Jukes-

LINK

LINK

George Hawtin: The Restitution Of All Things

LINK

God's Truth For Today

LINK

[move]"Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son He has ordained that all creation shall ultimately belong."[/move]

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/a/haillord.htm

 

[FineLinen]

Bearing in mind the common belief that this lifetime provides the only chance of salvation and that God wants all men to be saved:



1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Why does He keep blinding people?



Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.







Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.



Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.



Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



Why hide?



Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.



Why hate?



Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



Why harden?



Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.



Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



Why doesn't Jesus just explain all things to us now?



Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.



Why doesn't God just give us all faith now?



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;



Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



Why hold back the word?



Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:


If this lifetime is it, why does He keep going against His own will?

Hi there G4m. I reckon we are among those sillies who believe the Sovereign will of God will ultimately be met in fulness! I had a fellow just disclose to me that God has two wills, and one of them will not be satisfied. Oh, unbelief runs deep in the human heart! I know of only one will of God and that will is the Will of all wills. When our Father declares He will have all men to be saved that is exactly what will ultimately transpire.

Who will have= thelo=

To will. To have in mind. To intend.

To be resolved or determined. To purpose

To desire and take delight and pleasure and satisfaction.

And what does the delight and satisfaction of our Father's thelo involve?

Saved= Sozo=

To rescue from danger and destruction.

To make well/ to restore to health.

I have appreciated your thoughtful posts G4. This is indeed a glorious Being we worship!

The Staggering Unbelief Bible

The Lord has established His throne in the heavens; and His sovereignty rules over some. -Psl. 103:19-

The Lord can do some things, and almost no purpose of His can be thwarted. -Job 42:2-

The Lord will have some men to be saved and some to come to the knowledge of the truth. -1 Tim. 2:4-

The Glorious One works some things after the counsel of His own will. -Eph. 1:11-

God has spoken, He has purposed, and He hopefully will not change His mind, nor hopefully, will He turn from it. -Jer. 4:28-

Some of that which is decreed by the Glorious One will be done. -Daniel 11:36-

Some of what our God has spoken will be performed. -Ezekiel 12:25-

With God some things are possible. -Matt. 19:26-

Almost nothing is too difficult for the Lord, the God of some flesh. -Jeremiah 32:27-

Some of whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and earth, in the seas and in all deeps. -Psl. 135:6-

The word of the Lord which goes forth from His mouth; some of it shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing some of what He desires, and without succeeding in some of the matter for which He sent it. -Isa. 55:11-

Our God is in the heavens; He tries to do whatever He pleases. -Psl. 115:3-

 

[ZoneChaos]

By definition he must save all to be the savior of all. Is He the judge of all or just some?

By what definition?

And what judgement are we talking about? B-Seat or GW Throne?

John 5

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23. That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Who comprises the two groups of people mentioned here?

Why bother giving Him all things if He won't save us all?

So that we won't have an excuse if we fail to accept salvation.

John 3

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And these two groups?

Few will find it now.

When is "now" over with? How soon do you think before all will find it? What scripture do we have that says this "now" will end, and all will coem to Christ before they die? And can I assume then that you think wither everyone in the "now" that had dies, has been saved, or that you beleive salvation can come after death?

Let me ask you, why aren't preachers picking up serpents or drinking poison?

Common sense?

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11 is dealing with the Israel nation, and how we as the church should acceopt them as part of the church. It is not talking abour the church as a whole, or all of mankind.

So the FEW get chosen and saved now. But, why then the uncountable multitude here?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Guessing all the christians who lived before us?

Doing a word search, it appears that the word mostly rendered judgement is also rendered damnation. Judgement may be painful but its for good:

And yet a universalaist doe snot accept damnation as truth...

And so be saved:

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Assuming we are arguing form the point of view that salvation can only happen prior to physical death... what of those that do not call upon the name of the Lord?

Because He has enduring mercy:

 

[john14_20]

Hey ZC -

Assuming we are arguing form the point of view that salvation can only happen prior to physical death

I think (think being the operative word!) that is the whole point of mis-understanding brother. I don't want to speak on behalf of other people incorrectly, but how I see it is that the physical death of our bodies does not mean we have lost our chance with God.

If it did, then our death would alter God. When we die, God ceases being gracious, He ceases being loving and He ceases to desire us to be with Him.

In love, Pete.

 

[G4m]

By what definition?

John 4
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 4
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

And what judgement are we talking about? B-Seat or GW Throne?

John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

2 Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

23. That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Who comprises the two groups of people mentioned here?

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So that we won't have an excuse if we fail to accept salvation.

John 13
3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 3
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Luke 10
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 4
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.

Colossians 1
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 15
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The only choice is God's:

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And these two groups?

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When is "now" over with? How soon do you think before all will find it? What scripture do we have that says this "now" will end, and all will coem to Christ before they die? And can I assume then that you think wither everyone in the "now" that had dies, has been saved, or that you beleive salvation can come after death?

Revelation 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Look at my above post (#114), maybe you'll see a contradiction, or maybe a purpose...

Common sense?

Mark 16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Don't you believe?

Romans 11 is dealing with the Israel nation, and how we as the church should acceopt them as part of the church. It is not talking abour the church as a whole, or all of mankind.

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Guessing all the christians who lived before us?

So the few became an uncountable number?

Matthew 7
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And yet a universalaist doe snot accept damnation as truth...

I fully accept judgment:

Isaiah 16
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Isaiah 26
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isaiah 32
1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.

Zechariah 7
9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

Assuming we are arguing form the point of view that salvation can only happen prior to physical death... what of those that do not call upon the name of the Lord?

Isaiah 45
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Numbers 11
23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

Isaiah 50
2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.

Isaiah 59
1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Because He has enduring mercy:

Psalm 136
1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.