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Universal HealthCare Discussion

grasping the after wind

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There is not correlation between education and health. You're making an assertion that there is one. Prove that their is, and this criticism may be valid.

Education is a little more nuanced than medicine, and I can't conceive of why you wouldn't agree.


I can't find any reason to conclude that Education is more nuanced (nice weasel word BTW) than Medicine or that if it is more nuanced ( which I would be amused to see how you would go about proving that assertion) that that would preclude one from being dubious about government run health care after observing the obvious failure of government run education.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I can't find any reason to conclude that Education is more nuanced (nice weasel word BTW) than Medicine or that if it is more nuanced ( which I would be amused to see how you would go about proving that assertion) that that would preclude one from being dubious about government run health care after observing the obvious failure of government run education.

If the supposed failure of government-run education casts doubt on the benefit of a government-run healthcare system, then does the success of government-run defence do the opposite? Or should the supposed failure of education cause us to be dubious about the military also?
 
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grasping the after wind

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If the supposed failure of government-run education casts doubt on the benefit of a government-run healthcare system, then does the success of government-run defence do the opposite? Or should the supposed failure of education cause us to be dubious about the military also?

I think this country has lately had a very poor record as far as defense is concerned. Consider the 20 million illegal invaders that have sneaked across the border. I hardly call that a record of defense to be proud of. Again we pay huge amounts for defense and get very unsatisfactory results for our money. The fault does not lie with the soldier or the teacher for the failures of those institutions but with the governing authorities that mismanage, waste and virtually embezzle the taxpayer's money.
 
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DieHappy

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My favorite subject. I work in health care, so I deal with this every day.

The real issue isn't universal health care. What we lack is a rational system of universal health insurance. And there are 3 problems that must be addressed:

1) Our biggest structural flaw is the linkage between health insurance and employment. 60% of Americans are covered through employer-provided group health plans. That's fine as long as one is employed, but the policy belongs to the employer, not to the employee. People lose coverage if they're laid off, or change jobs, or go on strike. In the first 3 months of 2009, when the full-force of the recession hit, over a million people lost their health coverage. That's crazy. Your health insurance should belong to you. Just like your homeowner's and car insurance. Not to mention this is an enormous burden for American business, and puts us at a competitive disadvantage with foreign companies operating in places with national health plans. We talk about tax cuts and job growth, but that's a flyspeck. The single best thing we can do to stimulate business growth and job creation is to remove the need for American employers to be insurance providers.

And when Bush proposed taxing it as income, the poo really hit the fan. From the right as a tax increase and from the left because they complained it would have the exact effect you are advocating here. We need to make insurance personal. Right now it is the only cost that is both deductible to the employer and not taxed to the employee so it is both parties interest to make employer insurance a great perk. Remove that and you'll see people begin to choose their own policies. It doesn't have to be the feds forcing people into a government program, but too many on the left think that's the only way to accomplish it.


2) Adverse underwriting by carriers. This ties in with #1. Employer based group plans must insure all employees. Enrollees can't be denied coverage due to health status (though waiting periods may apply.) And premiums are based on the entire group risk, and can't be raised for any one individual. But for someone who loses his group coverage, he may face terrible problems getting insurance, especially if he, or a family member has pre-existing illness. After his 18 months of COBRA, his premium can be completely unaffordable. State laws differ, but in general, carriers are allowed to be much more restrictive in covering individuals, than in covering an employee group. Only about 9% of Americans have coverage in the individual market. Again, it's kinda crazy that companies can refuse to sell their product to those consumers who need it the most. This must change.
Another reason to remove group policies. If you buy your own policy when you get dropped from your parents and keep it, you won't have to worry about being covered. Simple rules about disabilities allowing you to stay on your parents and making it so you can't be re-rated if you started healthy and paid your premiums on time would solve a lot of people;s problems at the expense of a very few who won't think to the future. And I'm pretty sick and tired of caring for people who simply will not make a good decision no matter how much hand holding you do.


3) Cost. Several factors are at work here. The largest is technology. Unlike most other industries, advancing health care technology raises cost, rather than lowering it. Example: 75 years ago, if you had kidney failure, you'd be put on a low sodium, low protein diet. Not much else could be done. Very simple and cheap, but you'd probably die of uremia in 6 months. Now you can get a transplant ($50K or so) or go on dialysis ($60-70K a year.) You can have years more of productive life, but at a huge cost. The other big cost factor is our expectations. Americans want technologically advanced care, and we tend to be high utilizers. We also look to insurance to cover most all of our health needs, rather than reserving it for catastrophic health expenses. We like low deductibles, which further remove us from the actual cost of care. Finally, we have great resistance to price controls on health care, which are used in some countries to lower costs. And we're even more resistant to "utilization managment," a euphemism for rationing by medical need, which is used to some degree in other places. Shifting the costs of care for the uninsured onto those with insurance is also a factor. As is medical liability costs. But I think these are lesser factors than technolgy and expectations.
Adding more government control will just further insulate us from the cost, though. I don't know what you do, but check out the emergency room utilization sometime. Medicaid patients are notorious for overuse, demanding extra tests, and showing up for colds and other non emergencies. Worse than the uninsured. Because they have $2 co pays per day and simply do not care what anything costs.

The overutilization thing is an interesting conversation, though. We use 90% of the worlds ritalin, we do twice as many knee replacements per capita as any other country, etc, etc. The question is, Is that good or bad? I can send a patient to 5 different imaging for an mri the same day, a non emergency image in germany takes a week or more. Here if you have a bad knee, you get it replaced. In Europe they tell you to lose weight and maybe they'll replace it when you are no longer ambulatory. There's no doubt we're paying a lot of money when "lose weight" would be cheaper and better for the patient.

Medical liability is a huge problem. If you look at the costs of malpractice it's a tiny fraction of overall health care costs, but defensive medicine is a problem and it's hard to quantify. If I send you for an mri because I want that defense in case you sue me I commit insurance fraud if I bill for it. And they won't pay for it if it's defensive. So I come up with a reason, something I'm looking for, and then it's covered but the cost attributed to defensive medicine goes away. Which is why any doctor will tell you it's an enormous problem but the statistics don't bear that out.

There is also a philosophic problem. Some people do not see universal health insurance as a necessity of modern life, or even as socially desireable. It's opposed even when it can be shown that universal coverage can be achieved in the private sector, without a huge tax-funded government bureaucracy. But health coverage is as much a necessity as police and fire protection. Lack of universal health insurance hurts the quality of life for everyone. There is a non-governmental solution. But that's for later. This post is long enough.
I disagree that it's as necessary as police and fire. Take 2 twins, one lives next to the best hospital in the country and has 100% insurance coverage but eats fast food for lunch every day, never exercises, and sits in his cubicle stressed out about getting all his paper work done, then take his bother who lives in the burbs, bikes every day, and cooks his own food. With a $5000 deductible. You tell me who's healthier and is going to live longer.

Health insurance isn't even in the top 10 of items that contribute to a long life. Sex, stress, exercise, where you live, how much education you have is even more important.

Plus, if health insurance were used like car and home, never for maintenance but only for catastrophic care, costs for routine visits and things like physical therapy would drop dramatically. PT has gone from 75 to 350 and hour in less than a decade because of increased insurance coverage. What was 6 visits at 50% is now 30 at 90% so go figure that the PTs jacked the rates through the roof.

I think the philosophic problem is one of liberty versus making everyone equal. Even if you could prove to me that universal health care or universal insurance coverage would solve all of out health care problems: doctors would be happier, people would live longer, and the sun would shine every day, I'd still be against it because I don't want anyone controlling my life. We have bans on trans fats and happy meals under the auspices of saving money on health care. We ban smoking and control advertising for the same reason. "Lose weight" is great advice but when it comes from the federal government who controls whether you "take this pain pill" or get the surgery to help it becomes tyranny. When the government is the payer, the doctors won't be able to opt out and the patient is under their control. "You want a new hip? Do you have your sign in sheets proving you went to the gym 3x/week for the last 5 years? No? Well, we'll just have to see about that hip. We'll be in touch."

The facts are: Europe's programs are getting worse every year. We lead the world in innovation. We have the best cancer survival rates. Live birth rates are skewed in most of the world because they don't count sub 500 gram babies as a live birth. The best doctors from all over the world want to practice here because they don't get paid well anywhere else.

The facts also include our prices are out of control. That's because the free market influences have been removed. People here expect the best for free if they have insurance. The solution isn't more control, it's more freedom.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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If the supposed failure of government-run education casts doubt on the benefit of a government-run healthcare system, then does the success of government-run defence do the opposite? Or should the supposed failure of education cause us to be dubious about the military also?

If you want to talk about the government versus the private sector...

The private sector can pretty much produce all of the cars that people want to buy, and can be fairly successful at it. They don't have to forcibly extract wealth from people to do it, either.

The government can't produce roads which satisfy the demands of people who drive cars. The government also has other advantages. I'd estimate that between federal, state, county, and municipal governments at around 40 percent or so. In spite of the fact that it has eminent domain power, a huge portion of the nation's wealth, the ability to force people to work, the ability to take private property without the owner's consent, the government still cannot produce an adequate road system.
 
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[serious]

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If you want to talk about the government versus the private sector...

The private sector can pretty much produce all of the cars that people want to buy, and can be fairly successful at it. They don't have to forcibly extract wealth from people to do it, either.

The government can't produce roads which satisfy the demands of people who drive cars. The government also has other advantages. I'd estimate that between federal, state, county, and municipal governments at around 40 percent or so. In spite of the fact that it has eminent domain power, a huge portion of the nation's wealth, the ability to force people to work, the ability to take private property without the owner's consent, the government still cannot produce an adequate road system.

The question would be, "does the government produce a better road system than the private sector?" Since I don't know of any national highway system produced by private industry in any country in the world, the question then becomes "is having a government built/maintained highway system better than having none?"

Even if we look at privately owned and maintained roads in places such as gated communities, the layout is often terrible and maintenance is not noticeably better from what I've seen. So yeah, if you ask me, by any metric the government does it better.
 
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Billnew

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I'm curious as to what you have against the Tea party. Is it just that they are opposed to Universal healthcare or it it something else?
Tea party-1 issue, no more debt. Obamacare- severe debt, estimated 1.5t, estimates are always low balled.

[serious];58228213 said:
1. Since emergency rooms must provide care regardless of ability to pay, we have universal healthcare
2. If we have universal healthcare, the focus should be on increasing the equitable contribution to the cost of it and delivering it in the most efficient way
3. Emergency care is the most expensive way of providing health care
4. Allowing earlier intervention and preventative care for those who have no ability to pay will decrease healthcare spending on that population.
5. Allowing earlier interventions will improve outcomes for those populations
6. decreased costs of providing care to populations who cannot pay will increase the equity of costs

Hence, universal care will:
reduce the separation between users and the payer
improve outcomes
reduce overall costs

everyone gets what they want.
Goverment controlled means waste, corruption, red tape. It also means everyone using it will get the least common denominator. "Your healthcare products are provided by the company that bid the lowest."

High costs are related to welfare care. The cost of your tylenol is for the medicine and a portion of all the people that are treated that can't pay.
We healthcare reform, but universal?no. Obamacare? no.

They didn't exist under the 8 years post-Bush when he was destroying the constitution with stuff like the Patriot Act.

They are more or less Neo-Cons. I dislike Neo-Cons.

The birth certificate thing. YES,Clinton started it as a campaign tactic, but these guys have been on about it ever since. No other President has been given this much trouble over it, and I honestly have to question the root reason behind it.

They have a lot of social conservatives. Unlike social conservatives, I like personal freedom.

I have issues with a few points in the "contract from america"

I can elaborate in more detail, if you want. These are just the ones off the top of my head.



Indeed.
Repeat-Tea party-1 issue, no more debt. They formed when Obama took the reins of debt from Bush and charged forward into vast new debt.
The only group point concerning the Constitution is the balanced budget amendment.

Maybe people talking about the tea party should go to a rally. Debt, projected debt, law's (being considered or passed)affect on the national debt.
Tea party=against debt.
TEA=Taxed enough already
 
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jayem

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And when Bush proposed taxing it as income, the poo really hit the fan. From the right as a tax increase and from the left because they complained it would have the exact effect you are advocating here. We need to make insurance personal. Right now it is the only cost that is both deductible to the employer and not taxed to the employee so it is both parties interest to make employer insurance a great perk.

No argument there. The tax laws on health insurance are very inequitable. If you buy your own health policy, you get a deduction, but you still pay the premiums with after-tax dollars. Premiums for employer-based insurance are paid before taxes are taken out. So group health plans are, in effect, paid for with tax-free dollars.

I disagree that it's as necessary as police and fire. Take 2 twins, one lives next to the best hospital in the country and has 100% insurance coverage but eats fast food for lunch every day, never exercises, and sits in his cubicle stressed out about getting all his paper work done, then take his bother who lives in the burbs, bikes every day, and cooks his own food. With a $5000 deductible. You tell me who's healthier and is going to live longer.

No one can predict who's gonna live longer. The healthy, active twin could hit a rock on the bike path, go flying over the handlebars, facture his cevical spine, and wind up dying prematurely like Christopher Reeve, from complications of a high-level quadriplegia. The reason health insurance is necessary is the same reason auto liability coverage is required by states--to ensure you have a financial resource to pay for expenses you incur. If you're uninsured, and can't pay your medical bills, your costs will be shifted to all the rest of us. And good health habits are great, but it's still extremely foolhardy to go without health coverage. If anything demonstrates penny-wise, pound-foolish, that's it.

I think we actually agree on more than we disagree. Because the only insurance that I think should be required is a high-deductible ($3-5K per adult) mainly catastrophic policy. It should be available to everyone, regardless of health status, with the premium based on the community risk. To keep costs lower still, it should be underwritten by a consortium of private carriers on a non-profit basis. Medicare and Medicaid can be incorporated by vouchers. But this basic insurance must be mandatory. Because that spreads the risk over as much of the population as possible. If people want additional coverage--i.e., to pay for their deductible, or all the bells and whistles, then the carriers can compete to sell optional supplemental policies. I know mandatory coverage is a non-starter for a lot of people, but it's absolutely necessary. It keeps the premiums as low as possible for everyone, and it's the best way to approach the goal of universal coverage. This kind of system also keeps health insurance in the private sector, and separates health coverage from employment. Business can contribute to their employees' premiums as a benefit, but the insurance stays with the employee.

Re. mandatory coverage: to avoid constitutional questions, this should enacted by each state. It will take time. But the impetus will come from the corporate world. They will absolutely support a system that frees them from the burden of being insurance providers, and they will recognize the actuarial necessity of such a mandate. The states, too, should realize that joining in to this type of system could well lower their Medicaid costs. I have no doubt that the influence of businesses large and small, and the states' interests in their own bottom lines will eventually get the legislatures to act.
 
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Received

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My favorite subject. I work in health care, so I deal with this every day.

The real issue isn't universal health care. What we lack is a rational system of universal health insurance. And there are 3 problems that must be addressed:

1) Our biggest structural flaw is the linkage between health insurance and employment. 60% of Americans are covered through employer-provided group health plans. That's fine as long as one is employed, but the policy belongs to the employer, not to the employee. People lose coverage if they're laid off, or change jobs, or go on strike. In the first 3 months of 2009, when the full-force of the recession hit, over a million people lost their health coverage. That's crazy. Your health insurance should belong to you. Just like your homeowner's and car insurance. Not to mention this is an enormous burden for American business, and puts us at a competitive disadvantage with foreign companies operating in places with national health plans. We talk about tax cuts and job growth, but that's a flyspeck. The single best thing we can do to stimulate business growth and job creation is to remove the need for American employers to be insurance providers.

2) Adverse underwriting by carriers. This ties in with #1. Employer based group plans must insure all employees. Enrollees can't be denied coverage due to health status (though waiting periods may apply.) And premiums are based on the entire group risk, and can't be raised for any one individual. But for someone who loses his group coverage, he may face terrible problems getting insurance, especially if he, or a family member has pre-existing illness. After his 18 months of COBRA, his premium can be completely unaffordable. State laws differ, but in general, carriers are allowed to be much more restrictive in covering individuals, than in covering an employee group. Only about 9% of Americans have coverage in the individual market. Again, it's kinda crazy that companies can refuse to sell their product to those consumers who need it the most. This must change.

3) Cost. Several factors are at work here. The largest is technology. Unlike most other industries, advancing health care technology raises cost, rather than lowering it. Example: 75 years ago, if you had kidney failure, you'd be put on a low sodium, low protein diet. Not much else could be done. Very simple and cheap, but you'd probably die of uremia in 6 months. Now you can get a transplant ($50K or so) or go on dialysis ($60-70K a year.) You can have years more of productive life, but at a huge cost. The other big cost factor is our expectations. Americans want technologically advanced care, and we tend to be high utilizers. We also look to insurance to cover most all of our health needs, rather than reserving it for catastrophic health expenses. We like low deductibles, which further remove us from the actual cost of care. Finally, we have great resistance to price controls on health care, which are used in some countries to lower costs. And we're even more resistant to "utilization managment," a euphemism for rationing by medical need, which is used to some degree in other places. Shifting the costs of care for the uninsured onto those with insurance is also a factor. As is medical liability costs. But I think these are lesser factors than technolgy and expectations.

There is also a philosophic problem. Some people do not see universal health insurance as a necessity of modern life, or even as socially desireable. It's opposed even when it can be shown that universal coverage can be achieved in the private sector, without a huge tax-funded government bureaucracy. But health coverage is as much a necessity as police and fire protection. Lack of universal health insurance hurts the quality of life for everyone. There is a non-governmental solution. But that's for later. This post is long enough.

Well said. I think what could relate to 3) is the choice by doctors for certain procedures. They tend to choose (having good intentions as doctors) a few different tests, extravagant if possible, rather than pragmatically consider just one (or two). I've also heard (and would be interested in your opinion) that a huge lack of competition among technology (and God knows prescription pills) is at play. Given that the technology used in medical settings is obviously created and sold by private companies, I wonder how much the actual cost of production is compared to the mark-up for profits. If significant, nationalization of this commodity would be worth it in my opinion.
 
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DieHappy

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No argument there. The tax laws on health insurance are very inequitable. If you buy your own health policy, you get a deduction, but you still pay the premiums with after-tax dollars. Premiums for employer-based insurance are paid before taxes are taken out. So group health plans are, in effect, paid for with tax-free dollars.

I'm not even sure you get a deduction unless your total health expense is greater than 25% (and it might have gone up to 30% recently) of your taxable income. Those rules change as often as congress meets, though, so I can't keep up. It's crazy. If your work gives you a car you pay tax on the value. If they pay for your hotel stay, you pay tax on the value as income. If they pay for your life insurance, you pay for that as income or they don't get to deduct it as an expense. Someone pays tax on the value. But they give you a $20,000 insurance policy, deduct the cost, and you get it tax free. The tax code makes the problem worse but congress would rather come up with 55 convoluted new rules than just remove the one causing the problem. What's the opposite of "con"gress?


No one can predict who's gonna live longer. The healthy, active twin could hit a rock on the bike path, go flying over the handlebars, facture his cevical spine, and wind up dying prematurely like Christopher Reeve, from complications of a high-level quadriplegia. The reason health insurance is necessary is the same reason auto liability coverage is required by states--to ensure you have a financial resource to pay for expenses you incur. If you're uninsured, and can't pay your medical bills, your costs will be shifted to all the rest of us. And good health habits are great, but it's still extremely foolhardy to go without health coverage. If anything demonstrates penny-wise, pound-foolish, that's it.

Statistically, though, eating right will pay off far more often than having a gold plated insurance policy.

And the car insurance is really totally different. You're not required to have insurance on yourself or even your own car, only insurance to cover damage you do to someone else's property. So there's no correlation to health insurance. I understand the point of costs getting passed on, but how much is saved getting people on insurance? If they go on medicaid the state tax base gets hit with the cost and they don't fare any better than if they had no insurance. If they buy a decent policy they fall victim to the same removal from the price that the rest of us do and contribute to the problem.

I was just talking to a patient today. Father in law in the hospital, chief of staff is signing the chart every day and billing a thousand dollars for a consult every single day. He's not even coming in the room. I told her that when my wife was in the hospital after one of the kids the OB would breeze in on rounds, ask how she was, and leave. 2 minutes at most. Some days closer to 30 seconds. Then he bills the 45 minute consult code. So I called my insurance company and told them he upcoded. She said it was my word against the doctor. I said it was me and my wife and even my parents were in for some of those visits and she is getting ripped off and he's committing fraud, she should take this seriously. She said, "everyone does it. We can't do anything but go by the charts." This is the insurance company and they simply do not care. If you go the imaging center in the next town that I use primarily and have insurance for say, a head mri, it's $1900. But if you're cash and they don't have to deal with insurance it's $250. Seriously. State law says the costs of dealing with insurance and billing and collecting can be 33% of your fee schedule, so that's the amount you can discount if the patient has no insurance. But outrageous billing is the norm, so no one cares anymore.

I think we actually agree on more than we disagree. Because the only insurance that I think should be required is a high-deductible ($3-5K per adult) mainly catastrophic policy. It should be available to everyone, regardless of health status, with the premium based on the community risk. To keep costs lower still, it should be underwritten by a consortium of private carriers on a non-profit basis. Medicare and Medicaid can be incorporated by vouchers. But this basic insurance must be mandatory. Because that spreads the risk over as much of the population as possible. If people want additional coverage--i.e., to pay for their deductible, or all the bells and whistles, then the carriers can compete to sell optional supplemental policies. I know mandatory coverage is a non-starter for a lot of people, but it's absolutely necessary. It keeps the premiums as low as possible for everyone, and it's the best way to approach the goal of universal coverage. This kind of system also keeps health insurance in the private sector, and separates health coverage from employment. Business can contribute to their employees' premiums as a benefit, but the insurance stays with the employee.

I think you're right that we agree on a lot in this area.

I simply want to find a way to get the patient better involved in the finances of health care delivery. I hate to propose big government solutions but I actually think a single payer universal coverage with no deductible but only 50% coverage would go a long way. Maybe cap the out of pocket at $5000 per year and provide some voucher for the truly indigent, but even that has to be dealt with better than it is now. Some way to change the dynamic of doctor patient. Right now you (the generic you) go to the doctor with a headache and some dizziness and you get a heart scan, head scan, blood work and you never ask why. And the bill is $4000 and you weren't even admitted. If the money actually mattered you might ask why the heart scan. Why the head scan. Well, let's do a stress test and maybe we don;'t need the head scan and you've just cut the bill in half. And the mark up is so criminal and that when people start expressing concerns over the bill the costs start to go down simply because the doctors would be embarrassed to charge that much. The OB who charged $275 to breeze in for 30 seconds would be confronted by the angry patient stuck with the bill. I confronted him but when my insurance company wouldn't back me up and it didn't cost me a cent and the other 500 patients he did that to either didn't notice or didn't care, he won't change.

And that has to change.

Too bad the government sucks at everything and people don't mind defrauding the government. So maybe a requirement to buy from a private company is better. But I have a huge problem with that. Again, eating right will make you healthier than daily doctor visits, so why not require people to buy fresh veggies? And a good mattress? And a single family house in the country? And a gym membership? This isn't a slippery slope argument because everything I just listed will make you healthier than having or not having insurance. Mandating insurance only fixes one problem with our health care system - uninsured costs being shouldered by the rest of us - it doesn't fix the numerous other problems. The 2 biggest problems are overbilling by the doctors and hospitals and overutilization by the patient, a "get all I can" attitude.

And I'm not sure how to solve those. Well, doing away with insurance completely, making it all a cash based system, and giving vouchers to the truly sick and needy would do it, but I'm the only person in the world actually proposing that.


Well said. I think what could relate to 3) is the choice by doctors for certain procedures. They tend to choose (having good intentions as doctors) a few different tests, extravagant if possible, rather than pragmatically consider just one (or two). I've also heard (and would be interested in your opinion) that a huge lack of competition among technology (and God knows prescription pills) is at play. Given that the technology used in medical settings is obviously created and sold by private companies, I wonder how much the actual cost of production is compared to the mark-up for profits. If significant, nationalization of this commodity would be worth it in my opinion.

The cost of production is minimal. There is no lack of competition. Drugs cost a lot because of R&D and then they patent the drug. So they get monopoly pricing but it's not a lack of competition, it's the patent protection. When the drug goes to generic the cost drops so far that a lot of companies stop making it and let the generic makers have it all. Tech is the same way. There are several companies making new tech and it costs a lot but consider something like an mri. It may cost a million dollars (literally) for a new machine but you can make 10 grand a day if you book it with insurance patients. Even doing one cash or medicaid patient still yields you 1.6 million a year minus the cost of the tech and electricity. You've paid for a machine that will last until it becomes obsolete in one year.

The problem is overbilling, not the cost of tech.
 
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DieHappy said:
The cost of production is minimal. There is no lack of competition. Drugs cost a lot because of R&D and then they patent the drug. So they get monopoly pricing but it's not a lack of competition, it's the patent protection. When the drug goes to generic the cost drops so far that a lot of companies stop making it and let the generic makers have it all. Tech is the same way. There are several companies making new tech and it costs a lot but consider something like an mri. It may cost a million dollars (literally) for a new machine but you can make 10 grand a day if you book it with insurance patients. Even doing one cash or medicaid patient still yields you 1.6 million a year minus the cost of the tech and electricity. You've paid for a machine that will last until it becomes obsolete in one year.

The problem is overbilling, not the cost of tech.

I've rarely agreed more this month. Thanks for the insight.
 
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grasping the after wind

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And what about the people who have a choice of either health insurance or food and a roof over their heads?

I say go with the food and roof in that order. You don't need health insurance to live and if they get sick they can access the free health care that is available through clinics and if necessary ER or they could apply for Medicaid and then have food a roof and free health care. If they are unaware of these things they should be told that they exist so they can take advantage of them.
 
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Vylo

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America pays more for and gets less for its Educational system than most other first world nations and that is funded in the way you think we should do health care. Perhaps you might wish to re think this and come up with something that might have a chance to actually improve things?

Finland is almost all public schools, with no tution and free meals, all provided by the state, and they are tied for being the best educated, complete with a 100% literacy rate.

Fix the system, don't demolish it.
 
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MKJ

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All the developed nations have pretty decent health among most of the people. The difficulties with the American system IMO are: that there is a gap of people who end up doing things like stitching themselves up at home because they can't afford the ER bill; people who's care is determined by HMOs that are not transparent and don't really care about best practice; people who are in a state of high stress about health care; people who can't get regular preventative care; a very high rate of bankruptcies due to medical costs compared top other countries; and the US pays more money for it all.

To me, paying less money for similar care for all seems a better deal. And there are lots of different ways to implement universal care that work pretty well, so it is possible to find ways that will fit different situations and preferences of the citizens.

The American situation to me always seems more like corporate business interests taking precedent over the needs of individuals and the needs of the state.
 
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jayem

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I'm not even sure you get a deduction unless your total health expense is greater than 25% (and it might have gone up to 30% recently) of your taxable income.

For the record, only medical expenses exceeding 7.5% of AGI are deductible. Which is beneficial to a degree. If your family gross income is $70K, and your insurance costs $9K, then you get to write off $3.75K. But you're still buying insurance with after-tax dollars. If you have employer-provided coverage, your share of the premium is paid with pre-tax dollars. John McCain was correct in proposing to close this loophole. Popular as it is, it's a big revenue loss to the government, and it's one of the loopholes that the Supercommission will need to review.


And I'm not sure how to solve those. Well, doing away with insurance completely, making it all a cash based system, and giving vouchers to the truly sick and needy would do it, but I'm the only person in the world actually proposing that.

A high deductible should at least mitigate overutilization by patients. I remember reading about a health insurance program tried by one company. Each covered employee received a medical expense account. This had to be used for medical expenses, before insurance kicked in. Any money not spent, could be kept by the employee. Utilization dropped significantly, when people were spending what they saw as their own money. Also, providers who overcharge will not last very long when patients are paying out-of-pocket for their initial medical care. Another advantage of a one-payer system for the big-ticket medical expenses is the power of a monopsony to negotiate fees. Which should futher restrain overbilling and overutilization by providers. (But one-payer can benefit providers, too. If it's managed efficiently, providers can be paid much faster, and with much less overhead cost if they only have to deal with one payer, rather than with a dozen or more different insurors.)

We don't live in a perfect world, so no health insurance scheme will be perfect. But we can do better than we do now, and something along the lines of a modified one-payer, catastrophic, non-employment based universal health insurance system is a rational and reasonable option. I'd love to see a pilot program tried somewhere.
 
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Fantine

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Seeing how much less per capita other nations spend on health care for ALL their citizens than our nation spends on health care (from all sources) to cover 85% or so, it's obvious that universal health care is the way to go.

But our mistake was in keeping all those "market forces" in there...exactly what kind of "market forces" are we talking about?

Do market forces work when there is 25% overhead for programs administered by private insurance companies and 5% overhead for Medicare?

Do market forces work when the VA negotiates lower drug prices from pharmaceutical companies and veterans get their meds at far lower prices than seniors do using the "market forces?"

If we want private industry in our universal health care, let's hire Wal-Mart. They know how to negotiate and get rock bottom prices for their wholesale meds.
 
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jayem

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Can someone explain to me what was wrong with the public option? I never really understood why there was so much opposition to that.

A lot of Americans are tax-averse. I think it was believed that eliminating the current employer-based system would be too radical for many people. There were also concerns about federal government "control;" particularly in determining what benefits are covered. (Even though many state governments already have their hands in this.) But I think there is a legitimate argument about whether government should actually become an insurance company. Having government do it all would require a huge new bureaurocacy. Even Medicare is not an exclusively public operation. Medicare has always farmed out utilization review and claims management to private companies (called "fiscal intermediaries.") And about 60% of beneficiaries carry private supplemental policies. I fully support the idea of all health coverage following the Medicare model. Which is a basic one-payer plan offered to everyone, which can be supplemented for additonal coverage. But I'd rather see it organized regionally by a consortium of private carriers on a non-profit basis. They would handle all of the premium collection, claims management, fee negotiation with providers, and other day-to-day operations. Government's role would primarily be oversight and regulation. The best analogy would be a utility company. A private enterprise (and non-profit in this case,) but its business practices would be overseen and regulated by government.
 
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