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Universal Basic Income

bekkilyn

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Why do you presume people hate them? Why is advocating for those with little seen as an attack on those with a lot?

We've been propagandized to think this way over the past couple decades or so. The wealthiest of the wealthy with many of the politicians in their pockets have done a great job keeping the proles divided so that we don't catch on to what is really going on. Now we're trained to fight their battles for them.
 
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381465

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Why do you presume people hate them? Why is advocating for those with little seen as an attack on those with a lot?
Comments in this thread and others that describe the wealthy as hoarders, selfish, appropriating, not earning their money, etc have given me the impression there is hatred.
 
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bekkilyn

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Comments in this thread and others that describe the wealthy as hoarders, selfish, appropriating, not earning their money, etc have given me the impression there is hatred.

In my case, it's not hatred, but that I have a strong insensitivity for injustice, and nothing is just about this ever-growing wealth gap between the super wealthy and everyone else. They're not creating jobs. The money's not trickling down. The issues continue to worsen and the middle class continues to disappear. Is a plutocracy the government structure we really want for the U.S.? Or a global plutocracy at the rate things are going?
 
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Belk

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Comments in this thread and others that describe the wealthy as hoarders, selfish, appropriating, not earning their money, etc have given me the impression there is hatred.

Why would that give you the impression of hatred? If I describe a quarterback as not worth the money he was being payed it does not mean I hate him. It is simply a critique of what I feel his value is in relation to what he earns.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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It's not. But that is a problem that really only exists in the US. For us europeans, it is completely unimaginable that we would actually require a loan or a job, to pay our way through school.

Off course we pay some money, but the vast majority is subsidized. You'ld have to be poor to the extreme before you couldn't pay a higher education. And those people then qualify for a scholarship, which over here means that you pay nothing.

In this part of the world, there's no such thing as not being able to afford a decent education.

Does this lead to the best and most productive workforce?

Not at all. In fact, it leads more to a "class" system then anything else, where the rich get to have an education and the poor don't. How many Einsteins, Farradays, Newtons,... has the world missed out on, because their parents couldn't afford to send them through college or university? We'll never know and exactly that is the sad part.

Does this allow for the most talented and productive to advance?

Nope. Exactly right. It only allows for those with money to do so.

We need a system and culture that allows all people to succeed if they put in work. Not just a few.

Exactly... and the way to do it, today, is make education accessible to everyone, regardless of how much money the parents have.

And in the future, the way to do that is to provide a basic universal income for everyone.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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What a terrible argument....

So because some people are content by living of the land or by flipping burgers at McDonalds, nothing should be done to make college / university accessible to all citizens?

If that isn't what you were saying, then what WERE you saying?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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That's an inescapable result of capitalism. Especially as implemented in the US, where there is far less regulation then in the rest of the world.

A lot of US practices, especially concerning regulations in context of the workforce, are quite unthinkable here. Not to say, illegal.

From the top of my head:
- minimum wage in the US is too low
- no regulation concerning paid vacation days
- potentially bankrupting health care regulations
- having to acquire monster loans for education
- ...

Such things destroy equal opportunity for citizens.
Obviously, rich people will always have it easier then poor people, even if only for the sheer fact of having a safety net to fall back on.

But couple that with out-of-the-box easier access to health care and proper education (or in some cases, actually exclusive access to such) and you end up in a system where the rich have all the opportunities, while the poor are doomed in advance to flipping burgers (for the rich).
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Government spending favors the poor because they contribute nothing to it. As a net taxpayer I expect tax funded services. The poor do not have the same expectation. For them it's all benefits with no cost.

[Staff edit].

First, you do get tax funded service. And plenty of it.
Most of your government and everything it does, is funded by it...

Second, a healthy workforce is a productive workforce. A productive workforce generates wealth. An unproductive workforce doesn't.

Social security (in all its forms) benefits the whole of society - including the rich.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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What I meant was that college isn't the be-all-end-all that many make it out to be. It's not for everyone and everyone shouldn't be pushed toward it.

There are many opportunities for material success outside of college. Maybe people should be pushed toward those, after all it is the trades that are suffering most for qualified employees, not white collar jobs.

There are also many reasons for material failure besides not having a college degree. For example, if my wife hadn't left me we all would have been much better off financially. It killed my desire to move ahead for many years.

Also, I turned down a great opportunity because the job wouldn't allow me enough free personal time. I have never regretted that decision. That said I'm doing fine.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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[Staff edit].

First, you do get tax funded service. And plenty of it.
Most of your government and everything it does, is funded by it...

Of course. That's what I said. I expect those services, having paid for them.

Second, a healthy workforce is a productive workforce. A productive workforce generates wealth. An unproductive workforce doesn't.

Sure.

Social security (in all its forms) benefits the whole of society - including the rich.

SS isn't a 'tax funded benefit'. It is a self-funded program paid for by working people. It is also a source of funding for the gov't as excess funds are borrowed by them.
 
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dcalling

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Well, in the future all that stuff that are repetitive (drive a car, buy food) will be automated, true.

However think about this. A farm used to be full of people, now only needs a handful. Telephone used to be maned by people, now all machines. Does any one still complaint that they can't be phone operators or famers? Did those job loss affect anyone? Where did they go?

People will AWAYS find ways to make things easier. The moment that is done, they will AYWAYS find better ways to amuse themselves. I remember back when software engineers still uses c/C++, and I told myself debugging crashes needs skills and I will be safe. Then come Java/C#, where a crash produce stacktraces that even a fool can know how to fix, and I was a bit worried that any high school student will take my job. Well, it didn't take long for this to evolve to all different forms and cool ways of programming that it became even more complex and hard to debug even with the super easy tools. Now even a simple website with scripts needs transpilers and packagers and just that is not easy to setup!! Sure eventually we will make them easy again, but we humans will take on the easiness and make more complex and fun things to come, just what God give us, creativity
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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This is why I said that your idea of technology is stuck in the 90s.
The combination of "smart" systems, AI and robotics extend the reach of automation far beyond mere "repetitive" tasks.

Take that "smart safety system" for example, of which I posted a clip with a demo. There's nothing "repetitive" about that.

The advancement and automation that is standing at our door now, is unlike any previous automation wave in that sense.


That's not a valid comparision at all.
A valid comparision would be if AI bots were to become so advanced that they actually do the programming / application generation on demand by the end user - with no additional human programmers involved.

Sure, you still need people to create those bots, maintain them, improve them, etc.
But you don't need millions of programmers to do that, obviously.


As said, it doesn't look at all like it will be that way this time around.
Previous automation waves took over jobs with repetitive tasks and in the process, it created lots of other jobs - probably even more then it took in the first place.

That won't be the case this time. The new reality will surely create some jobs, but not even near the same number that it will annihilate.

Precisely because smart systems with AI powered engines engaged in machine learning, are capable of doing MUCH more then mere repetitive tasks or precision processes.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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...through taxes.

At the point of collection yes, but distribution is only to those who have contributed to it (and qualifying family members). Thus it isn't part of general revenue spending. Same with Medicare 'taxes'. It is the excess (SS Trust Fund) that is borrowed and is spent as general revenue.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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OldWiseGuy

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The only reason the poor flip those burgers is that the fast food chains won't hire those overqualified college grads (with degrees in PoliSci) that can't get a job anywhere else.

Minimum wage jobs have great value for entry level experience. High schoolers use the money to buy clothing and iphones, older kids use the money to help with college tuition. It's all good.

If wealth is what you crave skip college and invest the money in real estate. You'll get there much faster than college grads will. You can even start in high school, flipping burgers.
 
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LadyCrosstalk

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With millions of people receiving a government check every month I don't think liquidity will be a problem. The streets will be awash with money, just like Germany in the 30's.


That was just temporary--in a modern industrial state like Germany was at the time (it's even temporary with messed-up, failed states). What was the much bigger problem was the collapse and deflationary depression that was triggered by the Federal Reserve, when they withdrew a huge amount of cash from the system. Even Ben Bernanke said so (he did his Ph.D. thesis on it). The thing that most people don't realize is that the 2008 crisis never really went away. It is still draining the system. The Fed has had to crank up the printing press big time to try to keep things from collapsing.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I agree, but I wish they would print equity instead of more debt.
 
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