• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟182,909.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Appeal to a common self-interest shared broadly by a political body. Facts absolutely matter in such discourse.
Facts certainly matter, but facts in themselves aren't the same as a common self-interest, or a source of unity, or what have you. You need some common value set or something that informs how you interact with the world; otherwise you're left with a list of facts and the question "Now what?".
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
So truth is what you can observe?

Yes, I am an empiricist of sorts. I won't believe in an invisible, undetectable teapot orbiting Jupiter just on somebody else's say-so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat

My value is very simple, it's articulated by Confucius, Buddha, and others. "Whatever is hurtful to you, don't cause to others". In addition, the Buddha taught harmless as the first moral precept, and whatever is hurtful to us, we should not cause for others.

That's not dependent on believing in a religion without evidence, just observation that ethics seems to be critical to the quest for truth, purpose, and happiness.

You are free to see it otherwise, of course, but I invite you to understand my perspective before you dismiss it.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Sure. It’s the truth and more folks spend eternity in heaven. Win-win.
Not exactly. Believing the Gospel is not a problem for me as I am a Christian already, but literal inerrancy is right out--it is contrary to the teachings of my church to require it, if nothing else--and being required to give lip service to it just to placate the belligerence of a religious minority would be intolerable in a secular republic where freedom of religion is guaranteed.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat

Indeed. Having studied biblical criticism, that would be a big sticking point, and was the entire time I spent as an adult Christian. Biblical inerrancy simply isn't intellectually sound. The Bible is a human document, no different than the documents of any other religion, as far as I am concerned. Furthermore, I believe the lack of critical scholarship that many Evangelicals eschew is positively dangerous.

I'm currently studying Buddhism and eastern religions and there's the same issues with critical scholarship there. There are modernist vs. traditionalist debates. The difference is that Buddhists generally aren't extremists, regardless of their approach to modernism. That's because they are driven by an ethic of the Middle Way.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
It used to be enough that we were all Americans.
 
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟182,909.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
My initial response was based on the idea of finding some kind of unity in "facts and science" by themselves absent some principle or value system held in common. It reminded me of how I've sometimes heard people talk about how "evidence and science" should be the only consideration in determining policy, as if those by themselves are much more than descriptive. If that's not what you meant then fair enough.

Anywho, I am curious about your perspective, believe it or not. How absolute are you in your application of this variation of the golden rule? I also find your statement about ethics and truth/purpose/happiness interesting, particularly as it relates to the quest for truth. My initial thought is that in many ways the search for truth, particularly if your means are mostly empirical, would be a largely amoral pursuit. How do you see it?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat

I see what you are driving at... the fact/value distinction that Hume articulated.

Anywho, I am curious about your perspective, believe it or not. How absolute are you in your application of this variation of the golden rule?

I think it's a good heuristic, but I don't believe in absolutism. I reject the Christian concept of sin or that there are absolute and objective moral laws.


My perspective is as a spiritual humanist who is somewhat of a perennialist. The Rev. Dr. Gordon Bermant, the former bishop of the Buddhist Church of America, articulated it well in a lecture I saw a while back- western civilization has reached a dead end because it's divorced ethics from the rest of philosophy, instead of having ethics central to philosophical questions, as it is in Buddhism. The result has been nihilism, the sort of nihilism that Nietzsche prophesied. That is why you see moral decay and anomie in our society. Christian fundamentalism is merely a manifestation of that nihilism, and Christian nationalism even moreso. People believe in the forms of the religion, but discover it has no substance.

It goes back to that fact/value distinction I mentioned earlier. In divorcing value from facts, the door is opened to nihilism. This isn't an inevitability, but is due to the spurious use of reason and the assumption that there is no intrinsic moral ordering immanent in the world, no interrelationship between phenomena, etc.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟182,909.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
It used to be enough that we were all Americans.
Perhaps, but I think "American" also used to be a much more exclusive category in most people's minds.

I mean, what exactly does it mean that we're all American? What's the content of that? What do we have in common to unite around?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,055
56
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,938,492.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I am an empiricist of sorts. I won't believe in an invisible, undetectable teapot orbiting Jupiter just on somebody else's say-so.
How do you know your understanding is correct?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Perhaps, but I think "American" also used to be a much more exclusive category in most people's minds.

I mean, what exactly does it mean that we're all American? What's the content of that? What do we have in common to unite around?

Various degrees of shared misery combined with interdependence. If we choose an ethical path for life, that means having compassion and solidarity with fellow human beings, and those most immediate to us happen to be Americans.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,055
56
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,938,492.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
So your church has more authority than scripture? Where do they get that authority?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
How do you know your understanding is correct?

I don't in an absolute sense, I merely have reasonable confidence and hold my beliefs provisionally. I am open to correction. However, I have seen insufficient evidence that would imply I was wrong.

The Ven. Thitch Nhat Hanh, the founder of the order in which I studied Buddhism, articulated 14 rules for spiritual training, two of which I think are most pertinent, and wise:

The First Mindfulness Training: Openness
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
So your church has more authority than scripture? Where do they get that authority?

Why does his church need a presumed external authority? It traces its lineage back to the early church through an unbroken chain of succession of laying on of hands.

No doubt, he has confidence in his religious community to meet his spiritual needs and guide him. That's sufficient.

You see, the Evangelical notion we must have utter certainty in spiritual matters is unreasonable and unwarranted. Billions of people have made do throughout history without it, and intellectually and spiritually it is quite inferior to simply learning how to emotionally regulate and manage ones own expectations, to accept the inevitable hardships and mysteries of life with equanimity.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
So your church has more authority than scripture? Where do they get that authority?
I take my church as having more authority than your interpretation of scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Taodeching

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2020
1,540
1,110
52
Southwest
✟60,418.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What do we have in common to unite around?

Right now I fear little if nothing as the left tries to destroy the country and the Constitution along with the rule of law. The left is the destroyer of worlds
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,391
20,701
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Right now I fear little if nothing as the left tries to destroy the country and the Constitution

The Left weren't the ones trying to overthrow the rule of law at the Capitol on December 6th.

Lone citizens with idiosyncratic and uninformed opinions are not interpreters of the Constitution. That's why we have courts. And they saw no merit to Trump's false claims about the election.
 
Reactions: Lg2000
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Right now I fear little if nothing as the left tries to destroy the country and the Constitution
I am under the impression that "The Left" sees itself as rescuing the country and the Constitution.
 
Upvote 0

Vylo

Stick with the King!
Aug 3, 2003
24,768
7,823
44
New Jersey
✟212,869.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Right now I fear little if nothing as the left tries to destroy the country and the Constitution along with the rule of law. The left is the destroyer of worlds
I really hope this is satire, after 4 years of a GOP president doing his best to defecate all over the constitution, as well as rule of law.

There was a literal insurrection, and attack on our constitution and the rule of law itself. It wasn't by the left. It was by Trump and his cult. They actually attacked our nation, and many are being arrested for it as we speak, thankfully.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
27,359
19,073
Colorado
✟525,610.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I take my church as having more authority than your interpretation of scripture.
People think their interpretation of scripture IS scripture, while everyone else are the ones doing interpretation.
 
Reactions: Speedwell
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.