Unity Between Catholic and Protestant Christians

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You said you studied Catholicism yet you make this false claim?

The congregation, which has been seated during this preparatory rite, rises, and the priest gives an exhortation to pray: "Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father." The congregation responds: "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands, for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his holy Church." The priest then pronounces the variable prayer over the gifts. Mass in the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

 

[prodromos]

The congregation, which has been seated during this preparatory rite, rises, and the priest gives an exhortation to pray: "Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father." The congregation responds: "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands, for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his holy Church." The priest then pronounces the variable prayer over the gifts. Mass in the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

Please don't tell me you used Wikipedia as a source for your masters.

Like we Orthodox, they believe the liturgy unites us to the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We make our offering of bread and wine, and through the Holy Spirit it becomes Christ's own body and blood. Neither Catholics nor Orthodox re-sacrifice Christ. That is an abhorrent and slanderous misrepresentation of our faiths.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Please don't tell me you used Wikipedia as a source for your masters.

Like we Orthodox, they believe the liturgy unites us to the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We make our offering of bread and wine, and through the Holy Spirit it becomes Christ's own body and blood. Neither Catholics nor Orthodox re-sacrifice Christ. That is an abhorrent and slanderous misrepresentation of our faiths.

I don't understand. How does it actually become the blood and body of Christ? Sounds like magic to me.

 

[prodromos]

I don't understand. How does it actually become the blood and body of Christ? Sounds like magic to me.

All miracles sound like magic to those who don't understand God's divine activity in the created world.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

It isn't a "belief", but a historical fact that no Christian Church but the Catholic Church existed for the first 1,000 years of Christianity. At that point the Orthodox churches broke away from the original Church, and the first Protestant churches didn't break away from the Catholic Church until 500 years after that. And it is a biblical fact that Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". He wanted us to have "all truth", not a mix of truth and untruth, which is why He said His Church was to remain one. Truth cannot conflict with truth, so conflicting beliefs necessarily mean false beliefs. Jesus created a Church with unity. Proud and misguided men destroyed the unity of Christianity by created their own churches, in open defiance of the plainly stated will of Jesus Christ concerning His followers, which was and still is "that they all may be ONE, even as I and My heavenly Father are ONE", destroying the unity of Christianity. It is these renegade churches that need to address the disunity in Christianity, since they are the cause of it.

Christ founded the true church which is compromised of all believers who are saved by grace through faith in Christ apart from works. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions were created by men to try and add to what God made and that’s why they have many errors. The reformation attempted to correct some of them but propagated errors of their own. Thankfully the Lord has preserved the true church to this day, and it is not the Roman Catholic, orthodox, or Protestant church. It’s the church that Christ founded made up of all true believers.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

I don't understand. How does it actually become the blood and body of Christ? Sounds like magic to me.

It comes from misinterpretation of extremely basic verses in the Bible. The Pharisees made the same mistake, wondering how someone could eat flesh, they missed the fact that communion is symbolic of Christ’s death on the cross. It’s such a silly misinterpretation too but they make such a massive deal about it

 

[Pavel Mosko]

How can Catholics and Protestants have true unity while the Catholic church believes it is the only true church and that to be fully accepted as a true Christian a Protestant must convert to Catholicism, accept the Pope as their spiritual leader, and subscribe to Catholic doctrine and theology?

I'm going to have to disagree with ya Oscarr. I actually think the Catholics are pretty generous, based on the stuff I've read from the last 20+ years back when John Paul II was still around at least. Unlike the Counsel of Trent days, Catholicism at least sees most Protestants as Christians. This assumes some basic belief in the tenets found in the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed, but by and large it is pretty easy to qualify for, unless your something like a Oneness Pentecostal, a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness etc. chances are you qualify for that assumption. Anyway the general assumption of most Protestants born outside of Catholicism is that they are "Separated Brethren". They are generally considered Christian but not being Catholic are not thought to have the Full Faith etc.

Anyway that position is much more generous than that of many Protestants towards Catholics, where the notion of the pope and the Church are often very adversarial and polemical e.g. - the Pope is the antichrist, the Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon etc.


One constant of human nature, is something called Confirmation Bias. Humans tend to believe whatever their side, or position is right and we often tend to confirm that unconscionably with how we carry out our life. Anyway the Catholics are only doing what is natural to people in general, believing in their theology, interpretation of scripture etc. I don't think we can fault them for that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

All miracles sound like magic to those who don't understand God's divine activity in the created world.

It is nonsense. Are you telling me that the bits of bread and the cup of wine that Jesus held at the last supper were actually His body and blood, when He while in His actual body was holding them? Do you really accept me to believe that the sacrifice of his body and blood happened at the last supper before He went to the cross? Really???

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It comes from misinterpretation of extremely basic verses in the Bible. The Pharisees made the same mistake, wondering how someone could eat flesh, they missed the fact that communion is symbolic of Christ’s death on the cross. It’s such a silly misinterpretation too but they make such a massive deal about it

Do you know that Vatican II states that the desire of the Catholic church is to get all humanity and their goods back under Christ? What does that mean? It means that every person in the world and everything they own to come under the control of the Pope. That is the future purpose of the Catholic church according to its own Vatican II document!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm going to have to disagree with ya Oscarr. I actually think the Catholics are pretty generous, based on the stuff I've read from the last 20+ years back when John Paul II was still around at least. Unlike the Counsel of Trent days, Catholicism at least sees most Protestants as Christians. This assumes some basic belief in the tenets found in the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed, but by and large it is pretty easy to qualify for, unless your something like a Oneness Pentecostal, a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness etc. chances are you qualify for that assumption. Anyway the general assumption of most Protestants born outside of Catholicism is that they are "Separated Brethren". They are generally considered Christian but not being Catholic are not thought to have the Full Faith etc.

Anyway that position is much more generous than that of many Protestants towards Catholics, where the notion of the pope and the Church are often very adversarial and polemical e.g. - the Pope is the antichrist, the Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon etc.


One constant of human nature, is something called Confirmation Bias. Humans tend to believe whatever their side, or position is right and we often tend to confirm that unconscionably with how we carry out our life. Anyway the Catholics are only doing what is natural to people in general, believing in their theology, interpretation of scripture etc. I don't think we can fault them for that.

According to Vatican II, the purpose of the Catholic church is to have every single human being and everything they own to come under the total control of "Christ", or in other words, in the direct control of the Pope, who is the "vicar" of Christ. That is the form of unity that is the only unity acceptable to the Catholic church.

 

[zoidar]

That's a fair question; the same could be posed to any Protestant who believes that the Catholic Church is unbiblical, and you must be Biblical to be saved. In any case, pointing at both sides doesn't do much to help anything. Can you link to the thread you're referencing?

There is a very good talk by a priest who was addressing a Protestant parish, where he addresses the same question. You can listen to it for free here (it's at the bottom of the list of talks). It's called Knowing Jesus, from Fr. John Riccardo. I think any Christian would be pleased by what is said in this talk.

Free Catholic CDs from the Mary Foundation

May God continue to bless us all!

The difference is that protestants never claim their church is the true church, which Catholics claim. To most protestants (I believe) Catholics are just as Christian as protestants, but for a Catholic the protestants are not fully in the true body of Christ. I think the Catholic church needs to see this differently for there to be unity.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

The difference is that protestants never claim their church is the true church, which Catholics claim. To most protestants (I believe) Catholics are just as Christian as protestants, but for a Catholic the protestants are not fully in the true body of Christ. I think the Catholic church needs to see this different for there to be unity.

While I’m on your side of things I don’t think most Protestants I know believe Catholics know Jesus. The issue with the RC many Protestants have is that the addition of the sacraments, especially confession, as a requirement for salvation fundamentally changes the gospel...I have met some Catholics who put their faith in Christ alone for salvation and not the sacraments but this is contrary to RC doctrine

 

[prodromos]

It is nonsense. Are you telling me that the bits of bread and the cup of wine that Jesus held at the last supper were actually His body and blood, when He while in His actual body was holding them? Do you really accept me to believe that the sacrifice of his body and blood happened at the last supper before He went to the cross? Really???

God is outside of time. Your inability to comprehend Jesus' words has no impact on their reality. He can no less multiply His flesh than He can take a few loaves of bread and feed a crowd of thousands with food to spare.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While I’m on your side of things I don’t think most Protestants I know believe Catholics know Jesus. The issue with the RC many Protestants have is that the addition of the sacraments, especially confession, as a requirement for salvation fundamentally changes the gospel...I have met some Catholics who put their faith in Christ alone for salvation and not the sacraments but this is contrary to RC doctrine

Vatican II clearly states that anyone who puts their faith in Christ alone apart from works is to be considered anathema; in other words excommunicated from the church and condemned to hell.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God is outside of time. Your inability to comprehend Jesus' words has no impact on their reality.

If you want to believe that, then so be it.

 

[prodromos]

If you want to believe that, then so be it.

It is the teaching of the Church handed down by the Apostles. I would be a fool not to believe it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is the teaching of the Church handed down by the Apostles. I would be a fool not to believe it.

It is obviously the teaching of the RCC, but I see nothing of it in the teaching of the Apostles in the New Testament. The doctrine was first taught in the 12th Century. So, why is there no teaching from the First through to the 11th Century? Perhaps the answer to that is that it was not actually handed down by the Apostles at all, but the hierarchy of the church introduced it in the 12th Century "to preserve the literal presence of Christ" in the Mass.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Please don't tell me you used Wikipedia as a source for your masters.

Like we Orthodox, they believe the liturgy unites us to the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We make our offering of bread and wine, and through the Holy Spirit it becomes Christ's own body and blood. Neither Catholics nor Orthodox re-sacrifice Christ. That is an abhorrent and slanderous misrepresentation of our faiths.

This excerpt is from the Catholic News Agency liturgical resource site:
"The words of Jesus Christ at the Last Supper-"Do this in memory of me"-command the continuation of his sacrifice on the cross in every holy Mass celebrated anywhere in the world until the end of time. This was announced in the Old Testament with these words of the prophet Malachi: "From the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place there is a sacrifice and there is offered to my name a clean oblation."

 

[prodromos]

It is obviously the teaching of the RCC, but I see nothing of it in the teaching of the Apostles in the New Testament. The doctrine was first taught in the 12th Century. So, why is there no teaching from the First through to the 11th Century? Perhaps the answer to that is that it was not actually handed down by the Apostles at all, but the hierarchy of the church introduced it in the 12th Century "to preserve the literal presence of Christ" in the Mass.

The Armenian Church has always been independent of Rome, as have the Ethiopians and the Copts since the Council of Chalcedon yet they all believe in the true presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist. You find references to the same throughout the Early Christian Fathers. It has been central to the Orthodox Liturgy since its beginning so it is absolutely not some novel teaching which popped up in the 12th century in Rome.
The truly novel teaching is the solely memorial stance of many Protestant Churches with regards to the Lord's Supper.

 

[Andrewn]

It is a real shame that the position of the Orthodox church is that those outside of their particular faith are detestable, outcast dogs who are just feeding on garbage; and that would include people of about every other Protestant, Pentecostal, and Charismatic church!

I have a feeling that God detests, abhors, this attitude of superiority :-(.