Unitarian Universalism

[LibraryOwl]

See, you are asking this muslim to:

do what is asked of them within the boundaries of what is in the best interest of the country, business or organization they respresent.

Even if it goes against his religion, right? You are in effect, asking him to accept only part of the Qu'ran. A lot of more liberal Christians are asking me to accept only part of the Bible, too. But just as a muslim tells you that the Qu'ran is the inspired word of God, and totally infallible, I too tell you something similar, that the bible is "99%" correct (It contradicts itself in a few places, John Calvin!)


So, lets get this straight, this is what I believe, right? So in believing the whole bible, I am going believe a few things. In believing all those things, I might actually want to do a few of them:


I should "shun the wicked from my company" (Corinthians)


That's intolerance.


I should never rebel, and always pay taxes, and always follow the law. (Matthew) Even if it means buying stamps for all my paper. Even if it means only trading with one country. Even if it means never being able to manufacture anything with the iron I mine. Even if it means quartering troops in my house. Even if it means forced military service, I shall give to ceasar what is ceasars.


That's ignorance


I must avoid "Homosexual perversion" (Corinthians) because men laying with men and women laying with women is unnatural (Romans, Leviticus)


That's Homophobia


I know that woman was made for man, not man for woman. For this reason, I believe that women should have no sign of authority (Corinthians.) Women should be relatively silent, and obey their husbands (Galatians)


That's Sexism.


See, Tigress, we don't agree with eachother. One of us has to be right, and one of us has to be wrong. And if I were right, wouldn't it make sense for me to go about trying to ban abortions and homosexual unions and sex education and divorces and sex on TV? Because I really believe that I am doing the Lords work and fighting the devil. Why should you stop me?

You don't think I should be imposing my beliefs on others. But im going to get pretty mad when you "impose" that social security bill on me!

So I shouldn't impose my beliefs on others. Sorry! I have to! Its what God is telling me to do! And if you really agreed with me, you would be helping me.

But you don't. You have a very "dogmatic" and absolute belief about how great the constitution is, and how worthy and dignant every person is. You want to impose it, don't you? Isin't it a great belief? Wouldn't the world be so much better if there were no more wars or intolerance? Better go do something to make it that way!

You see, Tigress, ultimatly Christians do not represent a particular Government, business or organization. We in fact represent the true and eternal God, who made a covenant with Abraham and sent his son Jesus Christ, also God, to be crucified, in order that men might turn from their evil ways and follow God, finding forgiveness and consolation in Jesus' sacrifice.

Who are you trying to stop from imposing their beliefs? If not God, then every religion other than yours, every thought system other than yours. I think what the UUA really wants is for billions to flock into their churches and spend their whole lives in spiritual isolaiton, coming up with a phony set of beliefs that mix several religions and alter around based on their experiences and the need to justify thier lifestyle choices.

This is not going to produce a serious dialouge. It is going to lock up and compartmentalize religion as a tiny speck of peoples lives, not a part of any institution in their lives, public or private, but their church. That, would be a disaster.

 

[Tigress_86]

LibraryOwl,

You have expressed that you would not have a problem with contradicting, violating and disrespecting a belief in bombings, assassinations, beheadings, as well as Muslims imposing their religious beliefs upon others. I assume you must have a reason for this, thus, I contend that you are already aware of why freedom of action cannot be guaranteed, and are thereby capable of answering your own thoughts regarding the matter at hand.

- Tigress

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

You Are A Teflone Tigress, aren't ya?

 

[LibraryOwl]

Yeps. The reason im willing to controll their actions is because they are wrong. God, and Christianity, and thus, to some extent, myself, are right.

Lets say that China were to open itself up to Muslim missionaries. Thats bad.

Lets say it were to open itself up to Christian missionaries. Thats good.

See, my actions are motivated by the conviction that the Bible is absolutely right.

Your actions, for instance, in restricting killing, are motivated in the conviction that killing is absolutely wrong.

You, however, rather than shamelessly confessing your hopeless bias, as I have, claim to come from "universal" principals "which are held by almost all religions"

What I am talking about is law repecting or honoring an establishment of religion. Not just an establishment like that of the Church of England, but all churches, religious institutions, and all religious-based dogma. No law should be based on these things, lest we be a theocracy.

See, I want laws to recognize religion. Thats right, I loath the constitution. But my point here is that, we are both coming from very absolute principles in claiming our right to impose our beliefs on others, and that the UUA has no right to claim that its religion draws from all "faith traditions."

See, you take seven humps of sand from seven different religions and call it your own. What I say is, give us that hump back, do not claim to believe in Christ or god, for the Christ you proclaim is not the same Christ, and the God you proclaim is not the same God.

And yes, I have no problem restricting action. As long as it is the action the Bible says ought to be restricted. Restrict homosexuality, I say, restrict abortion, restrict divorce. But don't restrict Christianity.

See, you may say this is silly. But lets assume, for just a second, that there really was a God, and there really was a Christ, and the bible really was correct. Then im not being silly. Then I believe that humans should follow the Lord's law, because it's best for them, because it was the way they were designed to live. Then I am just doing what God tells me is best to do, see?

 

[Homie]

well put libraryowl.

but i don't think samelessly is a word

 

[waterlily]

Wow, just wow. You hate a fundamental part of the United States. If the supreme law of the land is hateful to you, I suppose you can move someday. Or maybe set up a religious compound and hide out in there.

If someone believes in a "different" Christ and a different God then you, then I guess they haven't really taken anything from you. There's nothing to give back. Not like you own God and Christ anyway.

Your post does sound pretty silly to me. And kind of funny in a really tragic way. But whatever floats your boat.

 

[Tigress_86]

If the supreme law of the land is hateful to you, I suppose you can move someday. Or maybe set up a religious compound and hide out in there.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[LibraryOwl]

My thanks to you, Homie, for I have now added an "h" to construct "Shamelessly," which was my true original intention.

To those of you who doubt my patriotism, I tell you this:

That I am a patriot, in the ONLY true nation, which is the kingdom of heaven. I swear aliegence to Jesus Christ, who is the ONLY king.

I give to Ceasar what to Ceasar is due, and do not flee my country, but pay my taxes and civically participate. But to even the most Christian constitution, which ours is not, or to the most Christian president, which ours is not, I pay not the slightest bit of reverence or alligence. For those kingdoms shall pass from the earth, but God shall never pass.

I am writing now, as I do compose music from time to time, a hymn in praise of the Lord, and it reads:

Chourus:

Open your hearts and let them sing!
For Jesus Christ the only king!
Ring ye your church bells,
And let them ring!
For Jesus Christ your only king!

Verse One:

Not the king of England,
Not the king of spain,
But Jesus Christ who died for us
And suffers all our pain

Chourus

Verse Two:

Not the congress or the senate,
Not the president,
Not Satan or Allah either,
Not the Pope or Zeus, no neither!

Chorus

And whilst I dally on the point of hymnals, I also find great error in the hymnal of your congregation, which claims to represent the beliefs of many religions, but doe's not represent them accurately. As the text for Amazing Grace
reads in Singing The Living Tratition:

Amazing Grace,

How sweet the sound!
That saved
A wretch* like me!
I once was lost,
But now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
(Repeat)​

*Or "Soul"​

Of course, what digusted me about this when I came upon it in a visit to my old church (South Church, Portsmouth NH) Was its utter faithlessness to that song, which played a role in my conversion from that heathen religion.​

As you may recall, the original Amazing GraceSin includes six verses which Living Tratition omits. Amoung them are contained my favorite line:​

How precious did that grace appear​

The hour I first believed!​

Which truly lifted my heart to the greatest joy, when I sung it in St. Josephs Church only two weeks after my baptism.​

Of course in examining the UU text, we discover that all the meaning has been drained from it. "I once was lost" represents the feelings of uncertainty many pre-UU's feel about the meaning of life and the direction of history. "Grace" represents their God, who is merely a force for good. "Saved a soul" means that this good has saved them from a life where they would have been lost to uncertainty and meaninglesness. "Was blind" represents their former state of relative unenlightenment, whereas "but now I see" represents the change in that state.​

This may seem like a queer charge to bring, but I tell you this: that you are all misled. That that "good force," that "Good God," or that "Unknown God," whom you seek after, is indeed the one who is proclaimed and revealed by the scriptures, and the sole Lord of the universe. And that by refuting his holy scriptures, you have fallen from a state of grace with him into hopeless mire of sin.​

And I tell you this also, that sin is not a transgression, but a state of seperation from God. And that all of us, including myself, are indeed hopelessly mired in that state of seperation. I tell you also that there is nothing that you may do about this seperation from God, which will result in every misery which befalls your life, and your ultimate judgement and condemnation to eternal suffering in hell.​

But that there is something that God can do, and that he works this work in all Christians, and bids all men to be lifted up with him on the cross. For his precious blood will pay the ransom of your salvation, and the salvation of all Unitarian Universalists, if only you will throw out all your false idols and worship him alone, trusting in his grace and mercy, which is great indeed.​

I implore you, to read the bible, and believe it.​

But if you do not, then throw it out, and trample on it. Do not confuse yourself with us. For if you believe as you do, you do not believe in the true God. He is the one who made a covenant with Abraham and sent his son, Jesus, to live and die and rise again, for the sins of the whole world. If your believe in him, but do not believe in the Bible, then you believe in a different God, and tire me by calling him by the same name, and you believe in a different Jesus, and tire me by calling him by the same name, and you believe in a different Bible, which has been added to and taken away from, and tire me by claiming that the God it depicts or the principles it proclaims are in any way the source for your beliefs or the motivation for your life.​

​

​

 

[Homie]

Amen Brother

 

[*Starlight*]

Hi, LibraryOwl

Maybe you don't know, but some UUs are Christians. It's a sort of interfaith organization, where different people are welcome. And Christianity is a very diverse religion. Just because someone believes in different things than you do, it doesn't make them less Christian.

I think it's good to respect views other than your own, because you can learn more from them that way.

 

[LibraryOwl]

Of course, the innocent manner in which you write this strikes me. I do indeed know of the "claims" of those "Christians."

To reiterate my points, breifly:

• There is one God.
• He is perfect, and always right.
• He is triune
• He always agrees with himself, he never says two opposing things to two opposing persons.
• So his truth is united
• And the Bible contains his truth
• But some people cliam to follow him, but do not follow the bible
• Either they are right, or I am right
• But just about every person born before 1920 would agree that I am right
• So I do not believe that God was misleading those people.
• But I do believe that you are mislead
• And that any person who is sufficiently mislead is outside of the fold of God
• And does not worship him, but a God of their own creation
• Who is decidedly different from the true God.
• And their worship of that God (or belief system) is abhorrible to the true God
• And unless they repent, they shall suffer eternally
• So I am called to rebuke and challenge them in the strongest of language.

 

[*Starlight*]

Of course, the innocent manner in which you write this strikes me. I do indeed know of the "claims" of those "Christians."

To reiterate my points, breifly:

• There is one God.
• He is perfect, and always right.
• He is triune
• He always agrees with himself, he never says two opposing things to two opposing persons.
• So his truth is united
• And the Bible contains his truth
• But some people cliam to follow him, but do not follow the bible
• Either they are right, or I am right
• But just about every person born before 1920 would agree that I am right
• So I do not believe that God was misleading those people.
• But I do believe that you are mislead
• And that any person who is sufficiently mislead is outside of the fold of God
• And does not worship him, but a God of their own creation
• Who is decidedly different from the true God.
• And their worship of that God (or belief system) is abhorrible to the true God
• And unless they repent, they shall suffer eternally
• So I am called to rebuke and challenge them in the strongest of language.

Well, these are your beliefs, and I respect them. But there are many Christians who disagree with some of these points. Not everyone is a conservative fundamentalist

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I would have thought that only Jesus knows who knows him. Therefore we have no way to judge who is a "christian" and who is not.

But we can relate better to some peeps than others. But also we must respect peeps who claim to follow Jesus, even if we disagree with them. Jesus is the Truth, not us or even our churches.

Now to seek truth is a good rule-of-thumb. I will openly contradict some peeps who say stuff that to me seems insane - like hating gays or ignoring the poor - but it doesn't mean i question if they follow jesus. we all follow according to our own relationship with Jesus and the community within which we relate to God; some of us are correct sometimes, others are correct at other times. sometimes both are wrong and others both are right.

thank God we leave it to jesus to tell whom he recognises as his own!!!!!! and thank God that to Jesus, we are all equally sinful and perfect.

 

[LibraryOwl]

I have just delivered a diffucult treatise on the absolute falisty of your religion, and claimed that you are an unrepentant follower of Satan bound for eternal damnation.

If this were indeed true, you would be banging on the door of a church right now, eager to find the mercy of God, but you dismiss me with the flick of a motion of your hand, saying that you shall believe what you shall believe and I shall believe what I do. It is apparent that you somehow disagree with me, yet you have provided no principle or biblical verse with which to refute me.

And Flanders, we must indeed try to see who is a Christian and who is not. For as Paul says:

1 Corinthians 5:

Expel the Immoral Brother!

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

(NIV)​

 

[Livindesert]

27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:27

5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
1 Corinthians 11:5-10

Yea, Biblical examples of how Christians should act by following every word of the bible. The Unitarian Christians I know read the heart of what the New testament was getting at. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

 

[*Starlight*]

I have just delivered a diffucult treatise on the absolute falisty of your religion, and claimed that you are an unrepentant follower of Satan bound for eternal damnation.

If this were indeed true, you would be banging on the door of a church right now, eager to find the mercy of God, but you dismiss me with the flick of a motion of your hand, saying that you shall believe what you shall believe and I shall believe what I do. It is apparent that you somehow disagree with me, yet you have provided no principle or biblical verse with which to refute me.

umm... was that a reply to my post? I'm not a Unitarian Universalist, and I've never claimed to be one.

But, I don't think that UUs are followers of Satan. Some of them are followers of Christ, and many other also follow God, they just view Him in a different way.

 

[DrFate]

If anyone has any questions concerning Unitarian Universalism, I'd be happy to answer.

Did you hear about the Jehovahs Witness who converted to Universal Unitiarianism?
He still went door to door,
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.For no particular reason..












.

 

[Voegelin]

The Unitarian Christians I know read the heart of what the New testament was getting at. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

If one thinks, as Unitarians tend to do, Christ was nothing more than a reforming Rabbi with a moral code that is most likely what one would see at the heart of the New Testament.

For believers in the Nicene Code it is not.

 

[Rae]

UUs were oppressing me once. They kept burning question marks in my lawn.

(yes, I'm a UU, no this didn't really happen...it's a joke)

 

[hartlandcat]

I just thought I'd come in and say hello — I'm a British Unitarian. We tend to call ourselves just 'Unitarians' here, but it's essentially the same thing, of course taking into account that it's in a different social and cultural context.

I'm not aware of the percentage of British Unitarians who consider themselves to be Christians, but I've been under the impression from speaking to people at GA that it's perhaps closer to 50%, rather than the 10% in North America.

You know, LibraryOwl, I would probably have guessed that you were previously a Unitarian even if you hadn't mentioned it. I find it interesting though that you port a United Church of Christ icon yet appear to be a rather Conservative Christian; my (very limited) understand of the UCC in the US was that it was one of the most liberal Christian denominations, where congregations are often linked to UUA congregations.