Unitarian Universalism

[Tigress_86]

[bible]Mark 16:16[/bible]

I believe that this verse calls us to first acknowledge (believeth) the truth of Jesus' teachings, and second, to exhibit or live the truth of these teachings. i.e. I see baptism as symbolizing the 'turning over of a new leaf.'

Like already pointed out: No god = No reason to consider these messages of love and such as authoritative. It is just something man has made up (in that view). So what's the big deal in breaking it.

I adhere to "these messages of love" because they are logical to me. They make sense and, as a bonus, are thus rewarding. No god does not automatically equal no moral values or reason for having them. In fact, to tell the truth, I find the idea of having a moral system [solely] because there is a god, a god that may punish me, to be rather plaintive.

Secondly, it sounds very feel-good and nice and all, but it can hardly be called a religion or even faith system, because you don't have to have faith in anything.

True, it is more of a philosophy, if you will, and in that respect, it is not much different than Buddhism, which also does not require belief in deity.

Thirdly, excluding God as a necessity to your philosophy, all you are left with is a man-centered philosophy, all you are left with is the belief that man can overcome the evil in the world by himself, all you are left with is Humanism. A wretched philosphy (no religion) that utterly fails to make the world even slightly better, in fact it makes it worse because it will evolve toward hatred, like the modern humanists have. And your philosophy is like theirs, so the same will happen to your organization.

I do not share said opinions about Humanism, as Humanism affirms the dignity and worth of all people, something I believe endeavors toward making the world a better place.

 

[Athene]

[bible]Mark 16:16[/bible]

I find it slightly curious that you are picking verses from Marks longer ending, usually folks steer clear of this section because of the high probability of it's inauthenticity.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I find it slightly curious that you are picking verses from Marks longer ending, usually folks steer clear of this section because of the high probability of it's inauthenticity.

Those 4 verses near the end of Mark 16 really raise some eyebrows, handling snakes, drinking poisons and such. Doubtful that Jesus actually said these things, especially in light of what he did say through out the rest of the gospels.

"After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings."
"I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. The doctrine which I teach is that which I am. I am It and It is I." - Gospel of the holy twelve introduction.

 

[Homie]

Tigress, we seem to agree on that, it is more like a life philosphy, like Buddhism is a life-philosphy and not a religion. In theory at least, but in practice they do have temples of worship with a buddha in it that they burn incense for, so it has become a religion, although "on paper" it is not.

Anyway

Tigress
I do not share said opinions about Humanism, as Humanism affirms the dignity and worth of all people, something I believe endeavors toward making the world a better place.

You are talking about these tenets that first made Humanism. However, Humanism has changed, although they still have the same "doctrine" (for lack of a better word). Their main agenda now is to stomp out religion wherever they can find it, there is nothing they hate more than a zealous Christian, even though the Christian might have live out their own tenets. If you were to check out what kind of things they fight for, you'd see its all about eliminating religion of any kind, and since it is a Western movement, Christianity is the main foe.

Humanists hate people of any faith with a passion. It does not matter what their official "principles" are, it is how their attitude, and what their goals are today that matters.

 

[Tigress_86]

Tigress, we seem to agree on that, it is more like a life philosphy, like Buddhism is a life-philosphy and not a religion. In theory at least, but in practice they do have temples of worship with a buddha in it that they burn incense for, so it has become a religion, although "on paper" it is not.

Unitarian Universalism is similar, as we have buildings of fellowship and worship, and we begin our services with the lighting of the chalice. Services also include prayer and the singing of songs from our hymnal, 'Singing the Living Tradition.'

Unitarian Universalists share seven principles and a tradition that goes at least as far back as the sixteenth-century, so while we may not all agree on the concept of deity, we still have unity in our churches.

According to Dictionary.com, religion is

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

For many in the church, their beliefs, values, and practices come from both religion and Humanism, while Unitarian Universalism itself recognizes the sacred scriptures of all or most religions, which are often used or mentioned in sermons. Some congregations hold bible studies and other similar events, providing a chance for those of certain traditions within Unitarian Universalism, i.e. Unitarian Universalists who identify themselves as Christians, to fellowship, though all are welcome.

You are talking about these tenets that first made Humanism. However, Humanism has changed, although they still have the same "doctrine" (for lack of a better word). Their main agenda now is to stomp out religion wherever they can find it, there is nothing they hate more than a zealous Christian, even though the Christian might have live out their own tenets. If you were to check out what kind of things they fight for, you'd see its all about eliminating religion of any kind, and since it is a Western movement, Christianity is the main foe.

Humanists hate people of any faith with a passion. It does not matter what their official "principles" are, it is how their attitude, and what their goals are today that matters.

Whether or not this is true of Humanism, I assure you that such is not true of Unitarian Universalism or the majority of its members. We do not hate people of faith, nor are we anti-faith. I, myself, have faith.

 

[Maize]

I have been reading through this thread, and I am left with a bad impression of this faith/no faith belief system you call unitarian universalism.

I'm sorry to hear that. Have we done something to personally harm or offend you?

Like already pointed out: No god = No reason to consider these messages of love and such as authoritative. It is just something man has made up (in that view). So what's the big deal in breaking it.

That's not quite true. In fact, many Unitarian Universalists do believe in a God/Deity/Supreme Force. UU, the religion, does not force this view, or even one view, of God on everyone. UU insists that we are free to develop individual concepts of God that are meaningful to them. They are also free to reject the term and concept altogether. Freedom of thought is very important to us.

Secondly, it sounds very feel-good and nice and all, but it can hardly be called a religion or even faith system, because you don't have to have faith in anything.

Again, that's not quite true. But explaning the faith of a UU will take more time than I'm willing to spend on this forum that is ordinarily hostile to outside beliefs.

Thirdly, excluding God as a necessity to your philosophy, all you are left with is a man-centered philosophy, all you are left with is the belief that man can overcome the evil in the world by himself, all you are left with is Humanism. A wretched philosphy (no religion) that utterly fails to make the world even slightly better, in fact it makes it worse because it will evolve toward hatred, like the modern humanists have.

I disagree. We aim to make the world a better place. We're not waiting for a deity to do it for us. WE can make it better through love, compassion, acceptance, tolerance and caring. I'm sorry you see those things as being wretched.

Homie, I don't wish to belittle your religion or beliefs, so why do you belittle mine?

 

[Maize]

Humanists hate people of any faith with a passion.

I'm sorry, but that is not true. Why do you insist on belittling others with beliefs different from yours?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Wow Mazie, after reading your replies here I am more impressed with UU's now than I ever was.
Threads like these are real eye-openers. Ironic isn't it?

 

[Homie]

Homie, I don't wish to belittle your religion or beliefs, so why do you belittle mine?

Because it makes no sense to me. And because it frankly sounds like a heresy, a modern heresy, and it reminds me of prophecies in the Bible about heresies that will develop in the last days. Not that I am one of those that think the world will soon come to an end, I am certainly not.

I'm sorry, but that is not true.

Yes, that is true. I don't like it, but its true. They even have lobbyists trying to influence politics to shut down Christian schools, they want to remove any trace of religion from society, and WHY is that? Because it is a self-worshipping man-centered philosphy.

I am not a muslim, but I can understand where they are coming from, I cannot understand people who think that PEOPLE will solve the problems of the world, which is created by PEOPLE. Like man will turn good over night, not really likely.

 

[Homie]

Wow Mazie, after reading your replies here I am more impressed with UU's now than I ever was.
Threads like these are real eye-openers. Ironic isn't it?

What is impressive? She has kind words, and speaks well, she is just being a good debater by coming of as the nice, understaning person. The UU is still a "church" that preaches that one does not need faith in our Savior, what is impressive about that?

 

[Maize]

Because it makes no sense to me. And because it frankly sounds like a heresy, a modern heresy, and it reminds me of prophecies in the Bible about heresies that will develop in the last days. Not that I am one of those that think the world will soon come to an end, I am certainly not.

Well you are entitled to your opinion and while I may not agree with you or your beliefs make sense to me, I am not willing to belittle you or your beliefs because of my lack of understanding. I'm sorry you feel differently.

Yes, that is true. I don't like it, but its true. They even have lobbyists trying to influence politics to shut down Christian schools, they want to remove any trace of religion from society, and WHY is that? Because it is a self-worshipping man-centered philosphy.

Ok... let's assume for a minute you're right. All humanists hate all people of any faith with a passion. Please provide proof for your claim.

I am not a muslim, but I can understand where they are coming from, I cannot understand people who think that PEOPLE will solve the problems of the world, which is created by PEOPLE. Like man will turn good over night, not really likely.

I am really very truly sorry you see things that way. I suppose that attitude makes apathy so much easier than trying to make a difference.

What is impressive? She has kind words, and speaks well, she is just being a good debater by coming of as the nice, understaning person. The UU is still a "church" that preaches that one does not need faith in our Savior, what is impressive about that?

I'm not trying to be impressive, I'm just defending my faith from attack. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else, we don't do that. I believe in kind words and I believe in speaking well. I also believe that if one is going to engage in a debate they should provide proof for the claims they make and build up their side, and not base their argument on tearing down others.

Peace.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

What is impressive? She has kind words, and speaks well, she is just being a good debater by coming of as the nice, understaning person. The UU is still a "church" that preaches that one does not need faith in our Savior, what is impressive about that?

Well for starters, there is that stuff about how "we shall know them by their fruits" and that alone speaks volumnes about Mazie.
And as far as the rest of what you've said here even I know that it is a gross misrepresentation of what UU is all about.
You see, it's about listening to God rather than preaching about God.

 

[Voegelin]

However, Humanism has changed, although they still have the same "doctrine" (for lack of a better word). Their main agenda now is to stomp out religion wherever they can find it. . . Humanists hate people of any faith with a passion. It does not matter what their official "principles" are, it is how their attitude, and what their goals are today that matters.

That is why I quit studying for the UU ministry many years ago and never went back. I had been baptised a UU as a child but we were more Congregationist/Unitarian with beliefs similiar to those of John, John Quincy and Abigal Adams, Julia Ward Howe and T.S. Eliot's family than UU or Universalist. Our element has about disappeared from UU congregations (although I hear a few are attempting to revive it). What is paradoxical about humanists and many Unitarian-Univerisalists is that while they often claim Catholics and evangelical Protestants wish to mix church and state, I have never been in a congregation which was more politically active than UUs. The last association I attended I would estimate over half the people there worked for government in one form or another. Social workers, K-12 teachers, college professors, welfare workers, psychologists and psychiatrists dominated the room.

That is almost the exact opposite of the Congregationalist/Unitarianianism of my New England ancestors (althought that faction was certainly around, it was not, as it is today, dominant to the exclusion of virtually everyone else).

 

[Brennin]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Voegelin again.

 

[Homie]

Please provide proof for your claim.

How on earth could I prove this? You ask this question because you know it would be very hard to actually find proof. And even if I were to find proof, like say download a TV-aired debate, it would be in Norwegian so you wouldn't understand it. It is true because of personal experience, other people's experiences, their words on news papers and TV debates, their goals make it evident (although you won't find those goals in writing)

I suppose that attitude makes apathy so much easier than trying to make a difference.

This is where you are so very wrong, the love for Christ compels us to do good. Christians are all but apathetic, I agree we could certainly do more and sacrifice more, but compared to other religions and philosophies we're doing pretty well.

I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else, we don't do that

Well, you should! If you hold to the true way of life, why don't you want others to share that? You said that you want to share the world, but you don't want people to come to "the true" philosphy, namely UU. If one believes in something that would be for the better of others (even though they don't know it) one should always try to help others come to that understanding. This stems from "Loving your neighbour as yourself". If your neighbour is walking towards a cliff, would you not tell him? Would you let him walk and fall over without even telling him?

 

[Tigress_86]

What is paradoxical about humanists and many Unitarian-Univerisalists is that while they often claim Catholics and evangelical Protestants wish to mix church and state, I have never been in a congregation which was more politically active than UUs. The last association I attended I would estimate over half the people there worked for government in one form or another. Social workers, K-12 teachers, college professors, welfare workers, psychologists and psychiatrists dominated the room.

Advocating the separation of church and state does not mean advocating against working for the state, but simply that one's religious dogma should not be imposed upon the state.

 

[Homie]

Well for starters, there is that stuff about how "we shall know them by their fruits" and that alone speaks volumnes about Mazie.

No offense to Maize, she is probably a good person, but you don't know her fruits, you only know her words.

And as far as the rest of what you've said here even I know that it is a gross misrepresentation of what UU is all about.
You see, it's about listening to God rather than preaching about God.

Hold on! You are not saying what the UUs are saying. How can this philosophy be about listening to God if they are saying that one doesn't even need to believe he exists?

It is a man-centered philosphy, there is nothing to be admired about that.

 

[mark53]

Well for starters, there is that stuff about how "we shall know them by their fruits" and that alone speaks volumnes about Mazie.
And as far as the rest of what you've said here even I know that it is a gross misrepresentation of what UU is all about.

You see, it's about listening to God rather than preaching about God.[/quote]

I could re-word this, as in reading the many, many negative and downputting comments one reads on CF!
You see, it's about listening to MY understanding of God and that, naturally, is the ONLY one that is correct! The Bible says that I and God are correct too!

 

[Voegelin]

Advocating the separation of church and state does not mean advocating against working for the state, but simply that one's religious dogma should not be imposed upon the state.

But UUs do exactly that. Have you been to an association meeting? You will find more diverse opinions and fewer calls for political action in Catholic and Baptist churches than among Unitarian/Universalists. And they inject their dogma (yes, I know they claim to have none...but that claim is like Henry Ford's offer of any color Model T so long as it is black) into politics in a more vigorously and in a more partisan manner than Catholics and the majority of Protestants. Now and then you might find a UU to the right of Joe Lieberman. But most are way to the left of him. They are "activists".

When I was intent upon a career in the UU, there was no dissent. They were all on the same page. Statism on steroids. Which is understandable. With so many working for the state (mostly in social services) they lobbied the state for more business. We used to joke about it. UU meetings were Chamber of Commerce meetings for those on the government payroll. (that is my one fond memory of UUs. They do have a sense of humor. The internet is full of UU jokes told by UUs).

I didn't walk away for no reason. I left because of the intolerance show toward Catholics and Protestants, uniformity of view and far left wing dogma.

 

[Maize]

How on earth could I prove this?

You've got to be kidding me. You can't just claim something to be true and then not have evidence to back it up, at least not in a debate if you want people to take you seriously. I will assume that since you refuse verify the statement you made, that is it no longer valid for this discussion.

Well, you should! If you hold to the true way of life, why don't you want others to share that? You said that you want to share the world, but you don't want people to come to "the true" philosphy, namely UU. If one believes in something that would be for the better of others (even though they don't know it) one should always try to help others come to that understanding. This stems from "Loving your neighbour as yourself". If your neighbour is walking towards a cliff, would you not tell him? Would you let him walk and fall over without even telling him?

Well, see here is where you don't understand the viewpoints of UUs. We don't believe we have the "one true religion or way of life" - we have found what is right for ourselves and would never think of pushing that on someone else because it may not be the correct venue for their spirituality. Now, that said, if someone comes to me and says they are searching for a spiritual home where they feel welcomed, I will tell them about UU. But never, ever do I claim that we have all the answers, or that we are a perfect match for everyone. Never do I tell people that if they don't believe exactly like I do that they will be tortured for eternity in a hell. Besides, UUs by and large, do not believe in some imaginary place of eternal tormoent. We do not spend all our time worrying about what may or may not happen after we die - we prefer to focus on the here and now, live life today, and make the world a better place for all people.

You are not saying what the UUs are saying. How can this philosophy be about listening to God if they are saying that one doesn't even need to believe he exists?

Just because we do not have a defined doctrine of God, does not mean that every individual UU does not believe in a Divine Source/God/GoddessSupreme Being/Creator/Ultimate Force/Inner Voice - we have many names and descriptions and ways of interpretating God. Do not dismiss us just because we experience that in ways different than your experience.