Unhappy Truth or Happy Lie...

[stan1980]

Apologies to whoever started this thread last time, I tried to find it but couldn't see it.

Anyway, last time this thread was done, virtually everyone said they'd prefer the unhappy truth, but I never got a satisfactory reason why that was the case, so I thought maybe we could start again...

Now, assuming you believe the lie is a truth and you have no reason to question it's truth, why on earth would you take an unhappy truth over a happy lie? In other words, why would you ever choose unhappy over happy?

 

[Bombila]

Good question, Stan, but I think it would depend entirely on the circumstances and content of the lie/truth, and also the degree of importance of the lie/truth.

Happy lie: Old friend who hasn't seen me for twenty years says "You haven't changed a bit!" Well, that's not true; I've gotten grey-haired, fatter, saggier and considerably more wrinkled, 'cause I'm gettin' old. In this case, I'd just as soon hear the happy lie.

Unhappy truth: Doctor says I've got six months to live. Well, that is a real downer, but it's important for me to know, as I've likely got a few things need finishing up or arranging, and a few people I need to talk with, so here I'd want the unhappy truth, for sure.

 

[allhart]

Apologies to whoever started this thread last time, I tried to find it but couldn't see it.

Anyway, last time this thread was done, virtually everyone said they'd prefer the unhappy truth, but I never got a satisfactory reason why that was the case, so I thought maybe we could start again...

Now, assuming you believe the lie is a truth and you have no reason to question it's truth, why on earth would you take an unhappy truth over a happy lie? In other words, why would you ever choose unhappy over happy?

Lets ask this Q. Would Jesus's disciples have died for a lie? To say that they would die for a false claim? Would you be willing to die for a lie or live for a lie? A lot of people live a lie. That there is no God? and are willing to die for it in the end.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Lets ask this Q. Would Jesus's disciples have died for a lie? To say that they would die for a false claim? Would you be willing to die for a lie or live for a lie? A lot of people live a lie. That there is no God? and are willing to die for it in the end.

Not all untruths are lies. Millions have died for causes they believed true but which were nonetheless false.

 

[quatona]

Apologies to whoever started this thread last time, I tried to find it but couldn't see it.

Anyway, last time this thread was done, virtually everyone said they'd prefer the unhappy truth, but I never got a satisfactory reason why that was the case, so I thought maybe we could start again...

Now, assuming you believe the lie is a truth and you have no reason to question it's truth, why on earth would you take an unhappy truth over a happy lie? In other words, why would you ever choose unhappy over happy?

Do I care to know whether a drug that helps easening my pain has been proven to contain a substance that eases pain or is a placebo?
Not really. If it helps me that´s good enough for me.

I tend to think that our interest in learning the truth varies very much, depending on various factors.

 

[quatona]

Lets ask this Q. Would Jesus's disciples have died for a lie?

Probably not if they knew it was a lie (although not even this can entirely be excluded).

 

[Beanieboy]

If you are unhappy because you know the truth, you haven't lost anything. You haven't lost happiness, because you didn't really have it.

If your wife was sleeping with half of Seattle, but you though that she was madly in love with you and faithful, you would be happy about something that wasn't true, so you aren't truly happy. You are happy about something that isn't real.

When you hear guys at a bar laughing about it, have you lost your happiness? Have you lost a faithful wife that loves you? No.
You still have the same wife. You just know whom you actually married.

What makes you sad is that you were she fooled you, and you feel that you can't trust her, when she trusted her before.
She slept with other men, is promiscious, deceitful, and makes you look like a fool, and you think that you lost a devoted, faithful wife.
You think that you lost someone who cared you when she simply cared more about herself to bother worrying about her actions, and how they affect you.
You realize that honesty is not that important to her when it comes to fidelity, but you won't know what other areas she isn't being honest in either. It isn't that you can't trust her now. You never could, and were simply mistaken to think you could.

You will cry over the wonderful woman that you lost, but you can't lose something that you never had, so there is no reason to be unhappy. You aren't losing anything that you had, nor anything that you want.

 

[Bombila]

Hoo, Beanieboy, that's quite a soap opera.

 

[billwald]

You present two separate problems. First one doesn't control one's beliefs in the common usage of the word. The belief is the conclusion of some sort of data analysis your brain does. If your brain tells you that 1 + 1 = 2 or that Jesus is alive and answers prayers, same thing. It is what you believe.

The other problem is that psychological pain can be more powerful than physical suffering. If one has been preaching/teaching something for many years one has a great mental/psychological investment in the idea and it can be as painful to dump an idea as to dump a wife. For example, Ernst Mach refused to "believe in" atoms even though he was a great physicist for which the speed of sound was named. In the same way, Einstein could never accept quantum mechanics.

Then there are people who are plain crazy but appear to be normal in normal conversation.

Then there is the problem that it takes extra ordinary evidence evidence to convince a person to reject a childhood belief.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I think most people would prefer the unhappy truth because we like to have a positive effect on other beings' lives. If we look at it completely selfishly, then the happy lie is obviously better (obviously if we don't know it's a lie). But let's say we were in the Matrix and experienced a false world that was great whilst our bodies were unconscious in a horrible world. Everything we do in the world we experience means nothing, so we have no effect on anyone's life at all.

To take a more realistic example, if everyone told you they liked you but actually didn't, then their lying to you causes them suffering and you're having a negative effect on their life. Whereas if they're honest they don't have to spend time with you and pretend they want to, so they don't suffer.

Beyond that, I think truth has an inherent appeal I'm not sure how to put in to words. It's just good because it's good. I couldn't explain why happiness is good either, we just know instinctively that it is. It's the same for truth, and for most people, imo, truth holds more of that inexplicable value than happiness.

 

[The Nihilist]

I mean, for big things, I'd rather know the truth. Is there a god? I'd like to know that, whether I like the answer or not.
Other, little stuff, though, maybe I don't really need to know. Does my special lady ever fake it? I don't think so, but I could live without being sure.

 

[Bombila]

I mean, for big things, I'd rather know the truth. Is there a god? I'd like to know that, whether I like the answer or not.
Other, little stuff, though, maybe I don't really need to know. Does my special lady ever fake it? I don't think so, but I could live without being sure.

OTOH, if you knew she sometimes faked it, it could only be because she loves you too much to let you think you may have - once or twice - not been quite perfect. So either way, it's a happy truth. ;-)

 

[stan1980]

Unhappy truth: Doctor says I've got six months to live. Well, that is a real downer, but it's important for me to know, as I've likely got a few things need finishing up or arranging, and a few people I need to talk with, so here I'd want the unhappy truth, for sure.

That might be one example where it could be beneficial to hear an unhappy truth. For example, if you are the sort of person who will decide to make the best of every last moment, then it would be beneficial to know the truth. If you are the sort of person who will wallow in self pity, you probably would have been better off not knowing.

 

[stan1980]

If you are unhappy because you know the truth, you haven't lost anything. You haven't lost happiness, because you didn't really have it.

If your wife was sleeping with half of Seattle, but you though that she was madly in love with you and faithful, you would be happy about something that wasn't true, so you aren't truly happy. You are happy about something that isn't real.

When you hear guys at a bar laughing about it, have you lost your happiness? Have you lost a faithful wife that loves you? No.
You still have the same wife. You just know whom you actually married.

What makes you sad is that you were she fooled you, and you feel that you can't trust her, when she trusted her before.
She slept with other men, is promiscious, deceitful, and makes you look like a fool, and you think that you lost a devoted, faithful wife.
You think that you lost someone who cared you when she simply cared more about herself to bother worrying about her actions, and how they affect you.
You realize that honesty is not that important to her when it comes to fidelity, but you won't know what other areas she isn't being honest in either. It isn't that you can't trust her now. You never could, and were simply mistaken to think you could.

You will cry over the wonderful woman that you lost, but you can't lose something that you never had, so there is no reason to be unhappy. You aren't losing anything that you had, nor anything that you want.

Actually, I disagree, if you live your whole life believing your wife was faithful and loved you, with no reason to doubt it, assuming you love your wife then it would almost certainly be better to live in ignorance, or believe a happy lie. As far as you are aware the truth *is* your wife loves you and that she is faithful.

 

[stan1980]

I mean, for big things, I'd rather know the truth. Is there a god? I'd like to know that, whether I like the answer or not.
Other, little stuff, though, maybe I don't really need to know. Does my special lady ever fake it? I don't think so, but I could live without being sure.

Surely there is even more reason to believe a happy lie here? Assuming you wont be able to distinguish between a truth and a lie, it could only make sense to believe the happy of the two possibilities.

 

[stan1980]

I think most people would prefer the unhappy truth because we like to have a positive effect on other beings' lives. If we look at it completely selfishly, then the happy lie is obviously better (obviously if we don't know it's a lie). But let's say we were in the Matrix and experienced a false world that was great whilst our bodies were unconscious in a horrible world. Everything we do in the world we experience means nothing, so we have no effect on anyone's life at all.

To take a more realistic example, if everyone told you they liked you but actually didn't, then their lying to you causes them suffering and you're having a negative effect on their life. Whereas if they're honest they don't have to spend time with you and pretend they want to, so they don't suffer.

Beyond that, I think truth has an inherent appeal I'm not sure how to put in to words. It's just good because it's good. I couldn't explain why happiness is good either, we just know instinctively that it is. It's the same for truth, and for most people, imo, truth holds more of that inexplicable value than happiness.

That's interesting, I disagree though. Truth might normally lead to happiness, or feeling good, but when it doesn't, I can't see what appeal it would have.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

That's interesting, I disagree though. Truth might normally lead to happiness, or feeling good, but when it doesn't, I can't see what appeal it would have.

But, just for the sake of argument, isn't the appeal of happiness just as much of an axiom as the appeal of truth? Surely I could say that happiness usually comes from truth, but when it doesn't I can't see what appeal happiness has.

 

[quatona]

I have heard people say "I have the best spouse in the world."

 

[The Nihilist]

Surely there is even more reason to believe a happy lie here? Assuming you wont be able to distinguish between a truth and a lie, it could only make sense to believe the happy of the two possibilities.

Your argument is sound, but it comes down to personal preference. I happen to dislike being made a fool.

 

[Beanieboy]

Actually, I disagree, if you live your whole life believing your wife was faithful and loved you, with no reason to doubt it, assuming you love your wife then it would almost certainly be better to live in ignorance, or believe a happy lie. As far as you are aware the truth *is* your wife loves you and that she is faithful.

Look at it another way.

Your best friend says that he has a great wife, but you know that she has told your wife that she only married him for the money. She has has multiple affairs, and isn't sure if one of the kids is his.

Do you think you should let him be fooled, and happy in the lie?
Would you want your friend to never tell you that he knew your wife had cheated on you, because believing a lie is better?

As a Buddhist, the idea of believing a lie, living in the "Matrix", isn't something that I want. I want to know the truth, and be happy about what is true. I don't want false friendships, false relationships, false awards, or anything that is false.
I have had them in the past, and when you find out that none of it is true, it really shakes you and fills you with mistrust, but it also makes you happy to know the truth, rather than to appear ignorant and pathetic to everyone else who knows what is really going on.

You know the woman that says that someone keeps calling and hanging up, or how her husband smells like perfume, or has lipstick on his collar and claims that he was hugged, or goes on sudden "business meetings" that are questionable, but refuses to admit the truth - that he's cheating on her?

That's who you want to be?