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Unforgivable Sin

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by Caedmon, Jan 8, 2002.

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  1. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    If your friend is denying the existence of God, then you need to question her salvation. Did she experience a true conversion, was she truly reborn? According to the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints(more commonly called "eternal assurance") a true, regenerate Christian would never believe that God does not exist. If she is just saying that God does not exist, then there is a chance that she might have experienced true conversion, but I somewhat doubt it. Pray for your friend and ask God to show her His Truth. That's about all you can do. God bless....
     
  2. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    it doesnt say that the pharisees blasphemed the holyspirit. yet they did blaspheme. it says in verse 28 that you can blaspheme and still be forgiven, any blasphemy at all except that of blasphemy of the holyghost.
    people say a christian couldnt do this.
    they say "well if they really chose god, they wont turn back, if they really got saved, then they wouldnt be doing that anyway"

    it is possible for a person to love god, and to later no longer love god. it is possible for a person to commit to god, really mean it, and then later to regret and turn away.
    it is possible to change like that.

    if a person who says they are a christian falls into sin and seeks sin and turns away from god. it doesnt neccesarily mean they were never saved.
    because when we get saved we are not redeemed of our flesh.
    the flesh is still present upon us, and it still "lusteth agaisnt the spirit" it hates the spirit.
    a christian can be overcome by his flesh, which hates the spirit, enough that he turns away from the spirit, the one person you can never blaspheme.

    if a christian can still sin, if he can choose to do evil, then he can also choose to do the ultamite evil and blaspheme the holyspirit.
    god doesnt zombietise you and force you to follow him. you must "choose" life.
    and the fact that flesh is still upon us, working agaisnt us, gives the oppurtunity to give in to it and turn away from the spirit.
    so, just becuase you want him now, doesnt mean you always will, you flesh can dominate your desires.

    hebrew 6.4-6 it is a clear and perfect picture of christians blaspheming the holyghost.

    it goes into great detail trying to prove these are mature well rounded knowlegdable christians, very strong christians full of faith and knowlegde.
    yet they "crucified TO THEMSELVES" jesus.
    they themselves chose to turn away and throw down jesus christ.

    and paul says these kind can never be "renewed (theyve been there before) to repentance".

    lots of young christians say things and do things like " i dont want god anymore, this is crasy, this cant be true" ive met a few of them.
    but god has mercy on those, they are young immature christians, they dont really know god, his word, or his power yet. god knows this and he has grace.
    but my pastor, a very mature christian, if he ever turned and said "i dont beleive in god, i hate this, i dont want him" he knew god, he walked with god, he knows the word, he knows the power of god, then he, well me may never be able to come back.
    becuase he is so much more responsible, and he knows fully what he is doing.
    christ forgave his murderors becuase "they know not what they do" stephen also did.

    i do not believe a person who isnt saved can blaspheme the holyghost and go beyond repentance. because we are judged according to our knowlegde, and they dont know god. they havent met god, they dont really know what they are doing.
    and untill youve already been saved and met the holyspirit, i dont beleive you possibly could knowingly blaspheme him. becuase you dont really know him yet.

    people say a christain cant, well i say ONLY CHRISTIANS CAN. becuase only christians know him. and your jugded according to your knowledge. there are stages of accountability, and unsaved people arent in those higher ones yet.

    blaspheming the holyghost isnt speaking, it isnt something you say, or do.
    it is the inward rebellion against and refusal of the holyghost to such an extreme that he is hurt or vexed so deeply that he no longer returns to you, basicly giving you what you wanted, which was "him to leave".
    you cannot accidently do this, there is no need to fear it.
    if you fear it it proves you want jesus, and if you want him, it wont happen. becuase those who ask receive.

    it those who refuse to ask that blaspheme him.
    some scholars say that
    the people in hebrews 6 cant return because theyve expereinced it all and there is nothing left to draw them back, they already know it all. theres nothing they want to go back to.

    to blaspheme the holyghost is so dangerouse because you cant come to god unless your drawn by the holyghost, and if the holyghost doesnt return to you, then you cant return to god.
    but it is all your choice anyway.
    ask and you shall recieve.
    ask for the holyspirit to leave enough, and he will.
    he is a gentelman. he wont beat your door down trying to come back.
    they did this in hebrews 6.
    "they have crucified to themselves" jesus.
    they choose this. it was all their doing.
    it is not a story of god forsaking one, and shutting the door on someone who wants in, but cant get in becuase of past sin.
    god will never leave "one who hungers and thirsts" for him. hell never cast those away.

    it is a story or picture of people who pushed god away, truely breaking his heart, and getting what they wanted.

    does anyone here know of Roberts Lairdon?
    this man was a minister of the gospel for years, he had a very succesful ministry, he was anointed, and was used in the gifts even. he was one of my faveorite preachers.
    as of about 2 or 3 weeks ago "CHARISMA" magasine posted an article saying he had left the minstry and is in homosexuality.
    :( :( :( :( :( :(
    that hurt me deeply.
    the same as a year or so back my dear friend and mentor Ian Ackerson backslid.
    it hurt.
    Roberts was one of my moms faveorite ministers. i could tell she was hurt very deeply, more than me even.
    for a brother like him, to be overcome and be defeated by the devil. :(
    its sadening, but sobering as well. i must realise the devil is no chump hes not playing, he wants to devour me! picture the worst most horrible murder ever, THE DEVIL WOULD LOVE TO DO THAT TO YOU!
    im no match for him unless im abiding in jesus.
    i must stay in jesus, i must abide in him, and not stray, if i leave the shelter of his wings, i may very well lose it all.
     
  3. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    psalms 22:3,

    I fully agree according to scripture. But one thing I am not clear on is if someone addicted to some drug like heroin or physical thing such as sex, and is saved with all intentions of repentence and with the understanding that God will heal them, then fall away for a time and come back, ( I have seen this in my own church) are they truely received by the Holy Spirit (assuming the Holy Spirit left them for that time) or are they cast out forever?
     
  4. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    According to Matthew 12:31, the only sin that will not be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 6:1-6 and Hebrews 10:26 is talking about a Christian who deliberately rejects the only sacrifice available for sin. This act of high treason can only be committed by a mature Christian who has received the knowledge of the truth; who is exercised in the Word of righteousness, to the point that even his senses know good and evil. When this person rejects the sacrifice of Jesus, there remains no more sacrifice. Any other sin, when confessed, is cleansed and forgiven by the precious blood of Jesus.
     
  5. marmaladePRO

    marmaladePRO Active Member

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    psalms 22.3 "he is a gentelman. " amen!!! thank you for putting in words an incredible aspect of the personality, character and love of God! God is a gentlman...

    solo: "(assuming the Holy Spirit left them for that time) " why do you assume the Holy Spirit left??? ;) would it not also be fair to assume that the Holy Spirit stays and is greived during a time we might call *backslidden'*. Does the Holy Spirit leave us because we revert to the sins of the flesh that have consumed us in the past? or like in the poem of the footprints, are we NOT alone during apparent trials or moments of carnal weakness?
     
  6. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    solo66
    i think that would be like a prodigal son situation.
    the father accepted him back.
    or as the nation of isreal did in the old testament, they turn to idol worship and all manner of sin over and over, yet god constantly cries out to them to return to him, and constantly states that he will be merciful if they will turn back to him.

    the thing about blasphemy of the holyspirit, or crucifiying christ to yourself is like, you hearing gods voice saying "come back, ill have mercy" and you rejecting even that over and over.
     
  7. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    If someone comes to the point that they openly deny the existence of God, then somethings wrong. Barring addiction, there's another term for "backslidden".... nonregenerate. This doesn't mean that a Christian cannot sin; what it means is that a Christian will not habitually remain in a sin once they have the "knowledge of the truth". Once you are repent, convert, and are reborn, you are permanently metamorphosised, changed forever.

    This site might shed some light on this subject:
    Perseverance of the Saints

    God bless
     
  8. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    the holyspirit living inside you is the only thing that changes. and he changes you, its not like you change, he changes you.

    you can choose to sin and make your temple dirty enough that he leaves, because the flesh and the spirit hate each other.
    and he will not dwell in an unclean temple.

    if he leaves, you no longer have the only thing that saved you, him. if he leaves then the very thing that changed your desire, him, is no longer present.

    the holyghost is the only thing that makes you any diffrent than before you got saved, and if he leaves, your back to square one.

    and blaspheme isnt simply denying the existence of god.
     
  9. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    knowing the truth never kept people from sinning, it wont keep you saved.
    the holyghost is the only way for a person to overcome satans death grip, that flesh. knowing the truth is not enough.

    this metamorphism only occurs because the holyspirit does it in you. and it only stays as long as he remains. if he leaves, then your back to being a catepillar. no one can overcome the flesh on his own.

    hebrews 10.25-27
    "let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembly of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exorhting one another and SO MUCH THE MORE as ye see the day approaching.
    FOR IF WE SIN willfully AFTER we have received the knowlegde of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sin, BUT a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adveraries."

    paul is clearly speaking to the church since he is provoking them to love and good works. and telling them to provoke each other also in this way. and hes telling them to assemble together, these are born agian people.

    he says they must do this more and more since the day aproaches, because if one sins after he knows the truth then he no longer has an attonement for that sin, and is in great danger of fiery indignation.

    verse 28-30
    he that despised moses law died without mercy under 2 or 3 witnesses.
    OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT suppose ye, shall be thought worthy WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and hath COUNTED the blood of the covenant , where he **WAS** sanctified, an unholy thing, and HATH DONE DESPITE unto the spirit of grace?

    it compares christians falling away to those who knew moses law and despised it non the less. it says these died without mercy, and asks you
    HOW MUCH WORSE DO YOU THINK THOSE WHO DESPISE JESUS, WHO SAVED THEM, AND WAS EVEN GRACEFUL TO THEM, WILL BE PUNISHED?

    again it is clear these people were fully born again. because
    he *was* sanctified.
    and it is clear that it is possible to turn away even though you are sanctified, and it even though he has much grace.
    you can still trod jesus under foot.
    and they even consider the precious blood of jesus unholy.
    this commonly taught fallicie of once saved always saved is not taught in scripture.
    people take scriptures that tell of gods great love, and gods great grace and say that means you cant fall away, but thats wrong. these verses clearly show that.
     
  10. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    thank you Psalms for a beautiful explanation of how Christians fall away, and your explanation of blasphemy. I agree that God is not giving out eternal damnation to one who makes a mistake, denys that God exists ,etc. Scripture also tells us, "a divided house will never stand". This would be similar to Jimmy Swaggart, and the preachers Psalms mentioned.(sorry Psalms). They recieved gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the Bible indicates once gifts are given, they won't be taken back. A "divided house" proves that those who have gifts, and those who have been born again, saved, can also be following demons. Scripture also says, "You cannot serve 2 masters". It means, "not for long" because the divided house will eventually fall. If a Christian were testing the spirits, and attributed that the gifts of these preachers were not of God ,because we saw the evil also in them, I think that would be a mistake & not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Attributing a gift of the Spirit as from the devil is a mistake, & not a personal slam against the Holy Spirit. There are many preachers who have gifts that claim this is blasphemy because they want to scare us into not holding them accountable & they don't wish to be put to the test of Scripture constantly. Blasphemy is a personal attack or accusation, which could result in someone knowingly saying, "I know You, but I prefer sin". Blasphemy is not accidental. Therefore denying God exists is not blasphemy. Non Christians also blasphemy. Satanic worshippers prefer Satan and they are blasphemers of the Holy Spirit.
     
  11. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    thank you debbie :)
    yes, i agree that many christians at immature stages make mistakes, yet are under grace, god knows their weakness.

    though i must say,
    roberts lairdon and ian ackerson were not agaisnt the house of god, or dividing it in anyway. they simply made some mistakes and satan overcame them. and jimmy swaggert is a preacher again. my pastor (whom i asteem very highly) said he may invite him to preach. swaggert messed up, he didnt blaspheme the holyghost. anyone could do what he did.
    i struggle with ****ography and lust and messed up just the other day, but i didnt blaspheme the holyghost. though i do understand that swaggerts level of responsibility is much higher than myne, and im sure the consequenses were great.

    and also, no flak towards you, but i dont believe sinners can blaspheme the spirit. they dont really know him. witches dont know him. no one knows the father unless he comes through jesus, you dont know god unless your saved.
     
  12. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    MY Bible dictionary defines blasphemy as,"To reproach or to bring railing accusation against ." Matt. 9:2-3 Jesus said,..."Son... thy sins be forgiven thee". And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves,This man blasphemeth." Read the book of Jude , matbe it will help, but maybe not. But most of us are in agreement that an atheist is not blaspheming. A satanist who performs miracles & says they are from the Holy Spirit is a blasphemer.
     
  13. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    yes but also read where jesus said that ALL BLASPHEMIES will be forgiven. except that one agiasnt the holyspirit.
    witches certainly may be blaspheming, but agaisnt the holyghost? and in a deep enough knowlegde and understanding to be cast out forever?

    plus paul says in romans that satan has BLINDED peoples eyes so that they cannot see the truth. i think this is where most if not all witches are.
    they are really so demonised that they dont know what they are doing.
     
  14. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    A little interjection....

    The only one's (IMHO) that can (but I don't believe it will happen)
    commit this sin are Gods election, this sin is standing before
    the synagogues of satan, and not allowing the Spirit of God to
    speak through them.

    Patrick
     
  15. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    I believe you're refering to God's Elect. God's Elect have salvation, meaning that all their sins will be forgiven. Thus, the Elect cannot incur an unforgivable sin; that would be a contradiction.
     
  16. ChristianPilot

    ChristianPilot If God is your co-pilot, switch seats!

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    So what does that mean?
    I think that first we have to find out what blasphemy is, and then what exactly it means by "blasphemy against the spirit".
    Blasphemy is defined as "the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God" (from http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm). Does the "lack of reverence" part mean that if you tell a joke about God or the Holy Spirit you've committed an unforgivable sin?
     
  17. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    The pastor at my church wrote a whole book on it: "The Unforgivable Sin" It's actually a very good book, there is some really good teaching in it.

    You actually have to speak out against the Holy Spirit to commit blasphemy. But those who refuse to yeild to the Holy Spirit and allow God to do a work in their lives are heading in that direction. If they keep going, they will eventually speak out against the true work of God, and that will be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

    My Grandmother lived to be 100 years old. She got saved at 99. She never spoke out against God. But I have seem people speak out against God, and hinder the work God is wanting to do in people's lives, and that does not last long. God does not allow anyone to get in His way of doing the work that He is wanting to do. He will move quick to remove any hinderance. But those who do not hinder the work that He is wanting to do, it seems to me, He leaves them alone.

    http://www.ernestangley.org/Books/books.htm
     
  18. ChristianPilot

    ChristianPilot If God is your co-pilot, switch seats!

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    *sigh of relief*
    This is my problem not only with the Bible but with other things in life, I take things too literally. I actually thought that if you joked about the Holy Spirit (or Jesus, or God, all the same thing mind you) you had comitted an unforgivable sin. It really didn't make sense to me. But it does now.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it basically means working against God and saying "no" to him, right?
     
  19. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>Correct me if I'm wrong, but it basically means working against God and saying "no" to him, right?

    That is pretty much going to end up in blasphemy. It is the work of the Holy Spirit of God in our life to save us. If we refuse to allow Him to do His work, then we are not going to be able to get saved. But the Bible says we will be judged by the words we speak. As Jesus did, we are to speak words of life & health and healing. We are to build up and encourage others in love.

    Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
     
  20. JimH

    JimH New Member

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    ChristianPilot - I'm not real sure where JohnR7 is going. Guess I'll have to read the book referred to.

    Maybe I can help clear things up a bit for you. The debate around the unforgivable or unpardonable sin has been going on for many years. To put it simply, the only unforgivable (or unpardonable) sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ's free gift of salvation. Once a person accepts Him as Lord and Savior and gets saved, the unforgivable sin is no longer applicable to that person. Remember when Jesus died He died for all of our sins. Not just the ones we decide to confess or give up or anything like that, He died for all of them. So when we become a christian, His blood is applied to all of our sins...past, present, and future. That is the only way we can have a relationship with a holy and pure God. It's called justification - appearing before God as though we have no sin.
     
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