Understanding the Trinity

[FutureAndAHope]

So, would you say that since the Church is depicted as seven Churches, and also seven Lampstands, would you say the number "seven" definitely refers to the number of churches being "seven," or that "seven" represents something spiritual?

Something spiritual - definitely.

If you say "spiritual," could the "seven spirits" not also refer to the "one Spirit" in the same manner?

Do you still believe that the Holy Spirit is composed of a literal "seven spirits" with seven personalities?

I think there is some evidence to suggest that the Spirit, is divided into seven parts, or personalities.

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

The Spirit is given personality. By the term, "these".

Rev 4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

In the Book of Revelation it states there are seven Spirits; as mentioned these are depicted as being a part of Jesus.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Then there is the fact one of the Earliest Church Fathers believed the Holy Spirit was sevenfold. Justin Martyr stated "For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit"

As stated a few times, seven is very important to God. He builds things after that number. Seven days of creation. Miracles occur in units of seven, Naaman dipping seven times into the Jordan. Seven times they walk around Jericho, they blow the horns seven times. Seven can represent completeness, but I believe it is more than that it is the number of God Himself, the Holy One.

What do you think the golden olive oil (Zechariah 4:12) stands for that pours out of the "two witnesses" (olive branches), and appears to feed the Lampstand in "Zechariah 4:2-3"?

The two anointed ones (or cherubim) dip into the oil. So the oil flows from God. But the angels dip into it.

Zec 4:12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"

More on Cherubim

Exo 25:18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.

1Ki 8:6 Then the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD to its place, into the inner sanctuary of the temple, to the Most Holy Place, under the wings of the cherubim.

1Ki 8:7 For the cherubim spread their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim overshadowed the ark and its poles.

 

[setst777]

Something spiritual - definitely.

I think there is some evidence to suggest that the Spirit, is divided into seven parts, or personalities.

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

The Spirit is given personality. By the term, "these".

Rev 4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

In the Book of Revelation it states there are seven Spirits; as mentioned these are depicted as being a part of Jesus.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Then there is the fact one of the Earliest Church Fathers believed the Holy Spirit was sevenfold. Justin Martyr stated "For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit"

Can you find any evidence that the Spirit is composed of seven spirits with individual personalities anywhere else in the Bible other symbolic or figurative language, such as found in Revelation and Zechariah? If not, what do all the other books of the Bible teach us about the Holy Spirit of God? What does the New Testament teach us about the Holy Spirit? What does Lord Jesus teach us about the Holy Spirit?

As stated a few times, seven is very important to God. He builds things after that number. Seven days of creation. Miracles occur in units of seven, Naaman dipping seven times into the Jordan. Seven times they walk around Jericho, they blow the horns seven times. Seven can represent completeness, but I believe it is more than that it is the number of God Himself, the Holy One.

Yes, those are literal events you are referring to with the number 7. I agree. Is that also true for the number 7 as used in the Book of Revelation?

The two anointed ones (or cherubim) dip into the oil. So the oil flows from God. But the angels dip into it.

Zec 4:12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"

Actually, there is a big difference between "dipping into" the receptacles" and to "drip into" the receptacles[ Zechariah 4:2-3; 4:12] Olive branches are giving olive oil in contrast taking oil.

Many scholars teach that the Olive Branches (Zechariah 4:12) refer to the two anointed ones: Joshua and Zerubbabel.

Jewish scholars interpret the Olive Trees as the source of fuel (Spirit) for the seven lamps.

More on Cherubim

Exo 25:18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.

1Ki 8:6 Then the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD to its place, into the inner sanctuary of the temple, to the Most Holy Place, under the wings of the cherubim.

1Ki 8:7 For the cherubim spread their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim overshadowed the ark and its poles.

In context, Zechariah 4 is referring to Joshua and Zerubbabel as the two anointed ones, which is in accordance with most scholars that I have just reviewed.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Can you find any evidence that the Spirit is composed of seven spirits with individual personalities anywhere else in the Bible other symbolic or figurative language, such as found in Revelation and Zechariah? If not, what do all the other books of the Bible teach us about the Holy Spirit of God? What does the New Testament teach us about the Holy Spirit? What does Lord Jesus teach us about the Holy Spirit?

If the seven Lamps are God's Holy Spirit, for which there is some evidence. We see it throughout the Bible. Because what was in the temple shadows what is in heaven, we can say, the account in the Book of Revelation is literal, not figurative when talking of the Seven Spirits of God.

Exo 37:18 And six branches came out of its sides: three branches of the lampstand out of one side, and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side.

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

Rev 4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

When returning to Jesus, who has the Seven Spirits, as a part of His body it is complete.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Your objection is that the New Testament mentions the Holy Spirit, in the singular. I have two counters for this.

1. The Old Testament (for the most part depicts God in the singular, yet He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)
2. The Early Church still taught that the Holy Spirit was one Spirit, consisting of seven parts. Justin Marytr - For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit

 

[setst777]

If the seven Lamps are God's Holy Spirit, for which there is some evidence. We see it throughout the Bible. Because what was in the temple shadows what is in heaven, we can say, the account in the Book of Revelation is literal, not figurative when talking of the Seven Spirits of God.

Exo 37:18 And six branches came out of its sides: three branches of the lampstand out of one side, and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side.

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

Rev 4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

When returning to Jesus, who has the Seven Spirits, as a part of His body it is complete.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Your objection is that the New Testament mentions the Holy Spirit, in the singular. I have two counters for this.

1. The Old Testament (for the most part depicts God in the singular, yet He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)
2. The Early Church still taught that the Holy Spirit was one Spirit, consisting of seven parts. Justin Marytr - For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit

Thank you for the dialogue. As for me, I will remain very cautious about any teaching that depicts the Holy Spirit as being made up of 7 spirits with individual personalities because such a belief is based on visions, figurative, symbolic, or imagery type language, of which there are many different possible interpretations by scholars. And that is the issue I had with what you wrote, and which I responded to.

Justin Martyr is not an inspired Apostle or prophet; and his beliefs, as well as the beliefs of other early Church fathers, differ one from another, even if in minor details, regarding the nature of God, the Holy Spirit, and other biblical topics.

Bible Teaching and Examples
God's Word is the only thing I trust regarding any doctrine of the Scriptures, and I do separate actual teaching and examples about such things from what we see described in symbolic or figurative language of visions, dreams, and so forth, as described in the Scriptures. So many people through the ages have gotten the visions wrong in their interpretations, and they still do.

The New Testament Scriptures clearly teach that there is only one Holy Spirit. This understanding of a singular Spirit of God is also relayed to us, in practice and examples by the prophets in their writings as we see the actions of the Holy Spirit described to us.

Lord Jesus himself refers to the Spirit of God in the singular (John 7:38-39; John 16:13-15; John 14:15-17; Acts 5:32; Luke 3:16. 22; Luke 12:10-12; and many more.), and so did His Apostolic Writers. Therefore, that is what I will believe. I believe the one Holy Spirit of God is what is plainly described and taught throughout the Bible, and I have studied the Bible for decades.

Regarding the figurative speech "seven spirits" and "seven eyes," or even "seven lamps," my feeling is that this symbolic language is used to describe the work of the Spirit in:

1) The prophetic seven churches (seven lamps) of which the Spirit flows through, or
2) The 7-fold nature of the one Spirit that we see in "Isaiah 11:2" as follows:

Isaiah 11:2).

1) The Spirit of the LORD
2) The Spirit of wisdom
3) The Spirit of understanding
4) The Spirit of counsel
5) The Spirit of power
6) The Spirit of knowledge
7) The Spirit of the fear of the Lord

I believe these are all the fruit or traits of one Spirit, and not seven individual spirits. And so, the figurative language "seven spirits" or "seven eyes" may have to do with the 7-fold nature of the Spirit as described in "Isaiah 11:2."

Yes, "Zechariah 4:10," describes the seven eyes of God rejoicing; but, this is likely part of the figurative speech. It may be that, similar to the seven lamps referring prophetically to seven churches that the Spirit (oil) flows into (Zechariah 4:2-3; 4:12), "the seven" of the seven-eyes, may be the work of the one Spirit with "the seven" - whoever they may be. For instance, we do not know who the four spirits of the heavens are that are around the throne

Zechariah 6:5 (KJV) 5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

In conclusion, the New Testament, which is the fullness of the mystery of the Gospel, depicts, and teaches us, that the Holy Spirit is singular - one Spirit. The language about the Spirit is unmistakable - that the Spirit is a single personage of God's being (one Spirit). So, that is why I believe this to be true.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV) 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 2:18 (KJV) 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 4:4 (KJV) 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

Revelation 16:13 (KJV) “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.

Revelation 2:7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 2:11 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 2:17 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3:6 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3:13 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3:22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thank you for the dialogue. As for me, I will remain very cautious about any teaching that depicts the Holy Spirit as being made up of 7 spirits with individual personalities because such a belief is based on visions, figurative, symbolic, or imagery type language, of which there are many different possible interpretations by scholars. And that is the issue I had with what you wrote, and which I responded to.

Justin Martyr is not an inspired Apostle or prophet; and his beliefs, as well as the beliefs of other early Church fathers, differ one from another, even if in minor details, regarding the nature of God, the Holy Spirit, and other biblical topics.

Bible Teaching and Examples
God's Word is the only thing I trust regarding any doctrine of the Scriptures, and I do separate actual teaching and examples about such things from what we see described in symbolic or figurative language of visions, dreams, and so forth, as described in the Scriptures. So many people through the ages have gotten the visions wrong in their interpretations, and they still do.

The New Testament Scriptures clearly teach that there is only one Holy Spirit. This understanding of a singular Spirit of God is also relayed to us, in practice and examples by the prophets in their writings as we see the actions of the Holy Spirit described to us.

Lord Jesus himself refers to the Spirit of God in the singular (John 7:38-39; John 16:13-15; John 14:15-17; Acts 5:32; Luke 3:16. 22; Luke 12:10-12; and many more.), and so did His Apostolic Writers. Therefore, that is what I will believe. I believe the one Holy Spirit of God is what is plainly described and taught throughout the Bible, and I have studied the Bible for decades.

Regarding the figurative speech "seven spirits" and "seven eyes," or even "seven lamps," my feeling is that this symbolic language is used to describe the work of the Spirit in:

1) The prophetic seven churches (seven lamps) of which the Spirit flows through, or
2) The 7-fold nature of the one Spirit that we see in "Isaiah 11:2" as follows:

Isaiah 11:2).

1) The Spirit of the LORD
2) The Spirit of wisdom
3) The Spirit of understanding
4) The Spirit of counsel
5) The Spirit of power
6) The Spirit of knowledge
7) The Spirit of the fear of the Lord

I believe these are all the fruit or traits of one Spirit, and not seven individual spirits. And so, the figurative language "seven spirits" or "seven eyes" may have to do with the 7-fold nature of the Spirit as described in "Isaiah 11:2."

Yes, "Zechariah 4:10," describes the seven eyes of God rejoicing; but, this is likely part of the figurative speech. It may be that, similar to the seven lamps referring prophetically to seven churches that the Spirit (oil) flows into (Zechariah 4:2-3; 4:12), "the seven" of the seven-eyes, may be the work of the one Spirit with "the seven" - whoever they may be. For instance, we do not know who the four spirits of the heavens are that are around the throne

Zechariah 6:5 (KJV) 5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

In conclusion, the New Testament, which is the fullness of the mystery of the Gospel, depicts, and teaches us, that the Holy Spirit is singular - one Spirit. The language about the Spirit is unmistakable - that the Spirit is a single personage of God's being (one Spirit). So, that is why I believe this to be true.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV) 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 2:18 (KJV) 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 4:4 (KJV) 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

Revelation 16:13 (KJV) “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.

Revelation 2:7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 2:11 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 2:17 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3:6 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3:13 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3:22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The Book of Revelation and the other revelatory books can be hard to decipher. We have both presented our cases, I think any more would just be a cycle of repeating ourselves. Whether the one Holy Spirit, has seven spirits, or just one is not super important, one day we will know the answer when we stand before God. But thank you for a civil debate.

 

[Grip Docility]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.



A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.



OB

OB,

The issue isn't Christians. You are the issue in this matter. You are attempting to apply "Occam's Razor" of Scientific Logic to an idea that is far beyond what you are willing to consider. You are intellectually incapable of grasping this, Spiritually unwilling to humble yourself enough to comprehend it and too emotionally insincere to trust a person of faith to genuinely know how to help you understand this. While you are most likely a very brilliant man, on this one matter, if you applied the razor required to understand this, which you have been entrusted with from birth, Occam's head would be wrought with cuts and patches of hair.

Unless you are willing to stop evaluating music with a tape measure, you will never understand this. I really had hoped that you would be willing to look at the world through senses that are beyond the senses that an infant looks at the world through for just a few days of existence, but I just don't see it happening.

Thank you for your time.

 

[jas3]

There's a qualitative difference between physics and maths (and biology and chemistry etc.) and the Trinity. For a start no one is claiming they are three persons in one or attributing them with supernatural powers. While you (and I) may not understand science beyond the basics we know enough to be aware there is a rational explanation for sciencey concepts, and that science produces empirical results.

Putting that aside - thank you for making the effort to explain the unexplainable. This thread appears to have upset/irritated a few posters so I will allow it to die quietly.

I had considered a separate post on the subject of understanding the point of the crucifixion - another concept I've never understood. I've decided to avoid the topic given the reaction this thread has produced. I suspect that any questioning around the crucifixion will result in me being metaphorically hung, drawn and quartered.

OB

I see that you have pretty much given up on this thread, but I would encourage you to consider the responses you got from @Ceallaigh and @ViaCrucis. They touched on some important points in your OP that I will comment on briefly:

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

You have asked why the Trinity is the way that it is, but "why" assumes that there is a higher framework within which something can be explained. God doesn't exist within a higher framework, so the question doesn't make sense.

A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.

Unfortunately, jargon just comes with the territory of complex topics. You have to spend a little time learning terms like "hypostasis" and "ousia" and "prosopon" if you are going to study this seriously, just like you have to learn terms like "vector space" and "positive definite" and "norm" if you want to study linear algebra seriously.

I notice you've also gotten some very esoteric answers here, which are not reflective of historical Christian thought on the Trinity. I would encourage you to read published works on the topic rather than an internet forum; an approachable and relatively short introductory treatment of Trinitarian theology is the first three chapters of The First Seven Ecumenical Councils by Leo Donald Davis.

 

[Grip Docility]

I see that you have pretty much given up on this thread, but I would encourage you to consider the responses you got from @Ceallaigh and @ViaCrucis. They touched on some important points in your OP that I will comment on briefly:

You have asked why the Trinity is the way that it is, but "why" assumes that there is a higher framework within which something can be explained. God doesn't exist within a higher framework, so the question doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, jargon just comes with the territory of complex topics. You have to spend a little time learning terms like "hypostasis" and "ousia" and "prosopon" if you are going to study this seriously, just like you have to learn terms like "vector space" and "positive definite" and "norm" if you want to study linear algebra seriously.

I notice you've also gotten some very esoteric answers here, which are not reflective of historical Christian thought on the Trinity. I would encourage you to read published works on the topic rather than an internet forum; an approachable and relatively short introductory treatment of Trinitarian theology is the first three chapters of The First Seven Ecumenical Councils by Leo Donald Davis.

Is there not only ONE God and One "Book" that can reveal this?

 

[Benaiah468]

Hebrew has always been the language most closely associated with gematria. The letters of both languages of the Bible are also numbers.

What results from the numerical value of the word el (G-d) and does it show us G-ds triune nature?

Standard (S)-/Ordinal Value (O) of G-d (אֵל)

el (G-d)
אֵל
1. א Alef 1
12. ל Lamed 30
∑ 13 (O) 31 (S)

Standard G-d (el) = 31
Ordinal G-d (el) = 13

Note how the standard/ordinal Hebrew values of the abbreviated form of G-d actually point to the triune nature of G-d Himself:

31 = 3 in 1
13 = 1 in 3

https://up.picr.de/40741409nc.jpg

The number 1 points to the One True G-d. The number 3 represents the Trinity.

The Hebrew word mashiach has the gematria 358

mashiach (Messiah)
משיח
13. מ Mem 40
21. שׂ שׁ Schin/Sin 300
10. י Yud 10
8. ח Chet 8
∑ 358


The Mispar Kidmi of mashiach (משיח) is 1331

145+1095+55+36 = 1331

31 = 3 in 1
13 = 1 in 3


Mispar Kidmi (triangular value) is a gematria method in which the values of all previous letters are added to the value of each letter

https://up.picr.de/48039631ef.jpg

Triangular value

https://up.picr.de/48039843cs.jpg

The equilateral triangle is a symbol of the divine trinity.

The expression


And He is for you Mashiach
וְהוּא יִהְיֶה לְּךָ לִמְשִׁיחַ


if all 15 letters are spelt out (Milui), the sum is 1331

And He is for you Mashiach
וְהוּא יִהְיֶה לְּךָ לִמְשִׁיחַ
6. ו Vav 6 6-6 וָו 12
5. ה He 5 5-5 הֵהֵ 10
6. ו Vav 6 6-6 וָו 12
1. א Alef 1 80-30-1 אָלֶף 111
10. י Yud 10 4-6-10 יוֹד 20
5. ה He 5 5-5 הֵהֵ 10
10. י Yud 10 4-6-10 יוֹד 20
5. ה He 5 5-5 הֵהֵ 10
12. ל Lamed 30 4-40-30 לָמֶד 74
23. ך Kaf-sofit 20 80-20 כַּף 100
12. ל Lamed 30 4-40-30 לָמֶד 74
13. מ Mem 40 40-40 מֵם 80
21. שׂ שׁ Schin/Sin 300 50-10-300 שִׁין 360
10. י Yud 10 4-6-10 יוֹד 20
8. ח Chet 8 400-10-8 חֵית 418
Σ 1331

12+10+12+111+20+10+20+10+74+100+74+80+360+20+418 = 1331

1331 is the original number (sum of Alef to the letter itself) of the Mashiach, as follows

mashiach
מָשִׁיחַ
א-מ
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+20+30+40 = 145
א-ש
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+20+30+40+50+60+70+80+90+100+200+300 = 1095
א-י
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 55
א-ח
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 = 36

145+55+1095+36 = 1331

https://up.picr.de/47929435vl.jpg

Hebrew/Greek Alphabet

 

[Benaiah468]

Gen 1:1 is rooted in the perfect number 37. The triple sum of 37 results in a triple sequence of ones

37+37+37 = 111


And this in comparison to the gematria of the letter

1. א Alef 1


The G-dhead itself is like this. Although the letter Alef consists of 3 parts, it is still 1 letter

Alef (written out in full)
אָלֶף
1. א Alef 1
12. ל Lamed 30
17. פ פּ Pey/Phey 80
∑ 111


Alef represents the oneness of G-d.


Alef equals 26 (2 Yud are 20 plus the Vav which is 6). In a sense, Alef is a One-Letter Name of G-d, because the sum of the 4 letters of the Name of G-d YHVH also add up to 26

https://up.picr.de/48100823us.jpg

The 37 is also the only number in the entire infinite sequence of numbers that can be represented geometrically in 3 ways on 1 surface (as a hexagon, a six-pointed star and an octagon)!

https://up.picr.de/40510512mb.jpg

The sum of the multiplied parts in the triple sequence of 37 points directly to the logos of John 1:1

(3*7)+(3*7)+(3*7) = 3*7*3

logos (word)
λόγος
11. Λλ Lambda 30
15. Οο Omicron 70
3. Γγ Gamma 3
15. Οο Omicron 70
18. Σσςϲ Sigma 200
Σ 373

In the Hebrew Bible, the OT, a very specific prophetic word of the LORD is found exactly 37 times,


eheyeh
אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה

that says:

I WILL (BE),


from #H1961 hayah, see also the context of Exodus 3, where the meaning of the name YHVH is given when He promises Moses,


I will be with you Ex.3:12

https://up.picr.de/48101587io.jpg

In the NT, a special phrase of Jesus is used exactly 37 times:


I AM
ego eimi
εγω ειμι

https://up.picr.de/48101832dr.jpg

37 times a promise is made by the Lord:


I WILL (BE)
eheyeh
אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה


37 times their confirmation comes in Jesus: He, Lord Jesus, fulfils the OT promise.

The NT proclaims

Jesus is Lord.


And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of G-d the Father. Phil 2:11

https://up.picr.de/48102055sn.jpg

Over a period of 1600 years, people wrote down messages given to them by the Spirit of G-d. Much later, these words were selected and summarised in a book that we know as the Bible. However, exactly 37 times the words

I WILL (BE)



find their way into the OT text in relation to the LORD.

And exactly 37 fulfilments of Jesus saying,


I AM


find their way into the NT, and such a thing could not happen by chance.

This is a miracle.


The number π is important to understand the mathematical aspects of a circle, but it also has to do with how G-d created the cosmos. π is not just an irrational number - it is infinite and ultimately unknowable. π represents G-d, because G-d is infinite. It is only a part of what G-d is.


The first appearance of the number 888 in π is followed by the number 800

https://up.picr.de/48100654co.jpg
Irrational numbers search engine

888 is the numeric value of Jesus in Greek, 800 is the numeric value of Lord in Greek

Ἰησοῦς
10. Ιι lota 10
8. Ηη Eta 8
20. Σσςϲ Sigma 200
16. Οο Omicron 70
22. Υυ Upsilon 400
20. Σσςϲ Sigma 200
Σ 888

kurios (Lord)
κύριος
11. Κκϰ Kappa 20
22. Υυ Upsilon 400
19. Ρρ Rho 100
10. Ιι lota 10
16. Οο Omicron 70
20. Σσςϲ Sigma 200
Σ 800


888 800
Jesus is Lord!

 

[setst777]

Is there not only ONE God and One "Book" that can reveal this?

Yes, there is only one God the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Does not God possess within His being His Word by whom God created all things (John 1:3) whom God sends forth from himself (John 8:42) to bring into existence all things that are from the will of God?

Is not the Word of God a personage within God's being by whom all things exist?

John 1:10 (WEB) 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him.

Does not God possess within His being the Holy Spirit, a personage of His being by whom God sends forth from himself to bring to testify (John 15:26)?

John 15:26 (WEB) 26 “When the Counselor has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me.

From God (the Father), through God (His Word and Spirit), and for God are all things.

Romans 11:35-36 (NIV) 35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?” For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

And so, the Logos (The Word of God) is one in God the Father’s nature of being God, for all things are from the Father (His command), and all things are through God’s Logos (The Word); so that, only God does all things by himself.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (WEB) 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of/from whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ [by incarnation], by/through whom are all things, and we live through him.

 

[Benaiah468]

The Bible contains different names of G-d that symbolise different levels of ethymology.

YAH is the first appropriate ethymology, the name with the filling (milui) of the letters gives the same numerical value as YHVH, which is 26

YAH (all letters are written out in full)
יָהּ
5. ה He 5 1-5 הֵא 6
10. י Yud 10 4-6-10 יוֹד 20
Σ 26

Elohim is the vessel of YHVH, as Elohim has the numerical value 86, which corresponds exactly to the expression vessel of YHVH

Vessel of YHVH
כְּלִי יְהוָה
11. כ כּ Kaf/Khaf 20
12. ל Lamed 30
10. י Yud 10
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
6. ו Vav 6
5. ה He 5
Σ 86


Mashiach is YHVH clothed which in gematria gives 358, the same as mashiach

YHVH clothed
לָבֵשׁ יְהוָה
12. ל Lamed 30
2. ב בּ Bet/Vet 2
21. שׂ שׁ Schin/Sin 300
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
6. ו Vav 6
5. ה He 5
Σ 358

mashiach
מָשִׁיחַ
13. מ Mem 40
21. שׂ שׁ Shin/Sin 300
10. י Yud 10
8. ח Chet 8
∑ 358



When the two letters of YAH are repeated, it means: will be

https://up.picr.de/48167373me.jpg

And what will YAH be? A human being, as follows:

https://up.picr.de/48167394hy.jpg

The gematria of YAH will be is 45, exactly the same as that of man (adam)

adam
אָדָם
1. א Alef 1
4. ד Dalet 4
13. מ Mem 40
Σ 45


When the past, present and future tenses are applied, the first level is G-d as 111 and the second level is bekor, the firstborn (son), who has the numerical value 222, as follows:

https://up.picr.de/48167485uk.jpg

bekor (firstborn)
בְּכֹר
2. ב בּ Bet/Vet 2
11. כ כּ Kaf/Khaf 20
20. ר Resch 200
∑ 222


Similarly, the mashiach in Daniel is called one like the appearance of a man

Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, Dan 10:18
וַיֹּסֶף וַיִּגַּע-בִּי כְּמַרְאֵה אָדָם, וַיְחַזְּקֵנִי


The gematria of the phrase one like the appearance of a man is 311,

Total = 311
Original Text
Strong's # Hebrew Value Inc
H4758 כְּמַרְאֵ֥ה 266
H120 אָדָ֖ם 45

which is the same as ish, another Hebrew word for man

man
אִישׁ
1. א Alef 1
10. י Yud 10
21. שׂ שׁ Shin/Sin 300
Σ 311

G-d has made Himself known by His name. This name, Hebrew אֶהְיֶה, is a declaration of will in connection with the redemption of Israel, which literally means I will be. The tetragrammaton יהוה can be transformed וְהָיָה to mean it will happen.

It follows that the concept of salvation from G-d is realised in the form of a human being known as Mashiach as follows:


And it shall come to pass that I will be like a man
וְהָיָה אֶהְיֶה כְּמַרְאֵה אָדָם
6. ו Vav 6
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
1. א Alef 1
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
11. כ כּ Kaf/Khaf 20
13. מ Mem 40
20. ר Resch 200
1. א Alef 1
5. ה He 5
1. א Alef 1
4. ד Dalet 4
24. ם Mem-sofit 40
Σ 358

And it will come to pass that I will be a man
וְהָיָה אֶהְיֶה אִישׁ
6. ו Vav 6
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
1. א Alef 1
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
1. א Alef 1
10. י Yud 10
21. שׂ שׁ Shin/Sin 300
Σ 358

YAH will be in man
יָהּ יִהְיֶה בָּאִישׁ
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
2. ב בּ Bet/Vet 2
1. א Alef 1
10. י Yud 10
21. שׂ שׁ Shin/Sin 300
Σ 358

 

[Benaiah468]

That then the Lord thy G-d will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy G-d hath scattered thee. Deu 30:3
וְשָׁב יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת-שְׁבוּתְךָ, וְרִחֲמֶךָ


We can now understand the deeper meaning of this verse.

The literal meaning of this verse is that G-d will return with your captivity, which of course is only possible if He returns in human form, which is known as mashiach.

The gematria of mashiach, 358, which is revealed progressively and regressively, is as follows:

https://up.picr.de/48168175je.jpg

Atbash is a very simple encoding system, sometimes also referred to as mirror code. To use Atbash, simply reverse the Alefbet so that Alef is encoded into Tav/Sav, Bet/Vet into Shin/Sin and so on

https://up.picr.de/48168433uw.jpg

The atbash of the letters that open up results in exactly 260, i.e. 10*26, the gematria of the tetragrammaton YHVH.


One of the signs for this "return" is indicated in this verse

And the Lord thy G-d will circumcise thine heart, Deu 30:6a

Total = 623
Original Text
Hebrew Value Inc
וּ מָ֨ל 76
יְהוָ֧ה 26
אֱלֹהֶ֛יךָ 66
אֶת־ 401
לְבָבְךָ֖ 54

The gematria of these five words is 623, which corresponds to the gematria of the Holy Spirit

Holy Spirit
רוּחַ הַקֹּדֶשׁ
20. ר Resch 200
6. ו Vav 6
8. ח Chet 8
5. ה He 5
19. ק Quph 100
4. ד Dalet 4
21. שׂ שׁ Schin/Sin 300
Σ 623

It follows that this is the work of the Holy Spirit at the end of days.

That G-d circumcises the heart is implied in the following verse:

It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Deu 30:12

The key phrase:

Who shall go up for us to heaven
מִי יַעֲלֶה לָּנוּ הַשָּׁמַיְמָה

It remains to be noted that the first four letters of the above four words spell the word "circumcision", Hebrew מִילָה, while the last four letters of the above four words spell "YHVH", יהוה, all in the correct order.


The remaining letters in the gematria are 540,

עֲלֶ נ שָּׁמַיְמָ
16. ע Ayin 70
12. ל Lamed 30
14. נ Nun 50
21. שׂ שׁ Shin/Sin 300
13. מ Mem 40
10. י Yud 10
13. מ Mem 40
Σ 540

which corresponds exactly to the gematria of Spirit of YHVH and Spirit of Elohim to symbolise the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit

Spirit of YHVH
רוּחַ יְהוָה
20. ר Resch 200
6. ו Vav 6
8. ח Chet 8
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
6. ו Vav 6
5. ה He 5
Σ 240

Spirit of Elohim
רוּחַ אֱלֹהִים
20. ר Resch 200
6. ו Vav 6
8. ח Chet 8
1. א Alef 1
12. ל Lamed 30
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
24. ם Mem-sofit 40
Σ 300

300+240 = 540


If you add the kolel to represent the new man, the gematria is 541, Yisrael

https://up.picr.de/48168904ed.jpg

The Mispar Kolel gematria method adds the number of words to the numerical value.

 

[Benaiah468]

Unitarianism is the belief that G-d exists in one "person", not three. It is a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity as well as
the full G-dheadship of Jesus. Therefore it is not Christian.

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

Lord Jesus recognised that He, the Lord below on earth, and G-d above were united, two aspects of a single being

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our G-d is one Lord: Deu 6:4
שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד


The expression

the LORD our G-d

in Hebrew

יהוה אלהינו

The letters are written out with their numerical values


the LORD our G-d
יהוה אלהינו
10. י Yud 10 4-6-10 יוֹד 20
5. ה He 5 1-5 הֵא 6
6. ו Vav 6 6-6 וָו 12
5. ה He 5 1-5 הֵא 6
1. א Alef 1 80-30-1 אָלֶף 111
12. ל Lamed 30 4-40-30 לָמֶד 74
5. ה He 5 1-5 הֵא 6
10. י Yud 10 4-6-10 יוֹד 20
14. נ Nun 50 50-6-50 נוּן 106
6. ו Vav 6 6-6 וָו 12
Σ 373


The sum of the numerical values is 20+6+12+6+111+74+6+20+106+12 = 373!

373 is also the numerical value of the word logos

logos
λόγος
11. Λλ Lambda 30
15. Οο Omicron 70
3. Γγ Gamma 3
15. Οο Omicron 70
18. Σσςϲ Sigma 200
Σ 373


The numerical value of the Hebrew expression

the LORD our G-d

is therefore, if you write out all the letters, the same as the Greek word

logos

https://up.picr.de/48171335hm.jpg

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my G-d. John 20:28

The wholeness and perfection of creation was the work of the wisdom of logos. Wisdom has the gematria 73 and 37 as standard and ordinal values

wisdom
חָכְמָה
8. ח Chet 8
11. כ Kaf 20
13. מ Mem 40
5. ה He 5
Σ 37/73

The number of logos, 373, a concatenation of 73 and 37, results in a snow crystal of 7 star numbers with 37 dots each and 6 hexagons with 19 dots, the centre of the creation triangle

6*19+7*37 = 373

https://up.picr.de/48171009ay.jpg

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isa 1:18


Isaiah describes how the red of Adamite sin is covered by the white of the snow.

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Ps 51:7

Did David know the price of redemption, the number of logos?

https://up.picr.de/40464318lc.jpg

This is how we recognise the typical snow crystal from our childhood: a star with hexagonal symmetry. This image was taken with a low-temperature scanning electron microscope at the Beltsville Agricultural Research Centre in Maryland, USA.

 

[Benaiah468]

In the Gospel of John, Lord Jesus, and after his glorification the paraklétos, the Summoned One, the Comforter, embodies the oral Torah.

Lord Jesus therefore has the same status as the Torah itself and can therefore be called the incarnate Torah, the incarnate Word of G-d.

Several terms that traditionally denote the Torah refer to Him. The best known text is

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Way, truth and life are common descriptions of the Torah.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:14-17

The glory of the Torah was seen when the Torah emerged as flesh, as a human "person" in Jesus Christ. Through Him came the grace and truth inherent in the Torah.

As it says in Psalm 25, all the ways of the Lord in which He leads people through His Torah are grace and truth

All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. Ps 25:10

Jesus' signature indicating ownership is the Alef-Tav

https://up.picr.de/40456023ht.jpg

He is the Giver of the Torah.

In the beginning G-d said

hayah or (יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור)

which means nothing other than

Let there be light: Gen 1:3b

hayah or (Let there be light)
יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
1. א Alef 1
6. ו Vav 6
20. ר Resch 200
Σ 232

It goes on to say

And G-d saw the light, that it was good: Gen 1:4a
וַיַּ֧רְא אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֶת־הָאֹ֖ור כִּי־טֹ֑וב


We recognise the Alef-Tav the Light as the Torah because its gematria is 613. The Torah has 613 mitzvot (commandments)


[Alef-Tav] the light
אֶת־הָאֹ֖ור
1. א Alef 1
22. ת תּ Tav/Sav 400
5. ה He 5
1. א Alef 1
6. ו Vav 6
20. ר Resch 200
Σ 613


The light of which the eternal G-d speaks is the Torah

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Ps 119:105

The Torah is often referred to as chayyim torah, i.e. living Torah.

The people of G-d will become the leading light for the nations in the messianic eon, for the the light of Torah and mitzvot (commandments)

And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, Isa 60:3a

After G-d has unveiled and revealed the light, the Torah, it becomes manifest in the midst of the darkness (of the nations)

For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. Isa 60:2

In the Torah we read about the amazement of the nations at their righteousness

Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath G-d so nigh unto them, as the Lord our G-d is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Deu 4:6-8

Conversely, without the Torah, Israel lives in darkness.

The gematria of the spoken word

Let there be light

exactly matches the gematria of two words that define what the scripture is really about: dabar YHVH (the word of the Lord).

We find this phrase in hundreds of verses in the Hebrew Bible. It is the fixed expression that denotes the revelation of the spirit, life and will of Almighty G-d.

the word of the Lord
dabar YHVH
דְבַר־ יְהוָה֙
4. ד Dalet 4
2. ב בּ Bet/Vet 2
20. ר Resch 200
10. י Yud 10
5. ה He 5
6. ו Vav 6
5. ה He 5
Σ 232

The essence and purpose of the Word of the Lord is to bless, as it is written

As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the [Alef-Tav] blessing, even life for evermore. Psalm 133:3
צִוָּ֣ה יְ֖הֹוָה אֶת־הַבְּרָכָ֑ה חַ֜יִּ֗ים עַד־הָֽעוֹלָֽם


berakah (a blessing)
הַבְּרָכָ֑ה
5. ה He 5
2. ב בּ Bet/Vet 2
20. ר Resch 200
11. כ כּ Kaf/Khaf 20
5. ה He 5
Σ 232

In the Psalm, the blessing is written with the Alef Tav.

The blessing comes to us through the Lord Jesus, the Torah made flesh, the living and life-creating Word of G-d.

In Colossians, Paul writes about Him

the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15b

As such, He is above all, and all things exist through Him, because He is before all things, and all things in heaven and on earth were created through Him, and because He was predestined to inherit all things and to have preeminence in all things, since all things are created in Him, that is, in the power of His "person," and through Him.

The power of the apostle's language is such that Arians like Jehovah's Witnesses have been forced to insert the word [other] into their NWT,

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:16 KJV

because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through himr and for him. Col 1:16 NWT JW

to demote Christ to the status of a created being.

G-d's Son, the firstborn, whose name

The Word of G-d Rev 19:13

must be recognised as nothing other than olam elohim, that means eternal G-d

olam elohim
אֱלהִים עוֹלָם
1. א Alef 1
12. ל Lamed 30
5. ה He 5
10. י Yud 10
13. מ Mem 40
16. ע Ayin 70
6. ו Vav 6
12. ל Lamed 30
13. מ Mem 40
Σ 232

 

[Benaiah468]

The Trinity is a concept that is derived from the Jewish Scriptures themselves, even if the word does not directly appear in the bible.


In the beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth Gen 1:1
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

The very first word of the Torah,

In the beginning
b'reshith
בראשית

consists of the letters

2. ב בּ Bet/Vet 2
20. ר Resh 200
1. א Alef 1
21. שׂ שׁ Shin/Sin 300
10. י Yud 10
22. ת תּ Tav/Sav 400

The Bet stands for the word bar, son.
The Resh stands for ruach, spirit.
The Alef stands for ab, father.
The Shin stands for shaloshethem, trinity
The Yud stands for yachad, unity.
The Tav stands for tamim, perfection.

Accordingly, the letters of the word bereshit make up the sentence:

In the beginning...Son, Spirit and Father, their Trinity in perfect unity.

which reflects the gematrically geometric figure of the triangle in Genesis 1:1

https://up.picr.de/48227898sy.jpg

The best-known sign of the Trinity is the triangle

https://up.picr.de/48227916fk.jpg

The words from Gen 1:1 add up to 2701, which is 37*73.

The 37 hexagon in the centre of the 73 star

https://up.picr.de/48227899yk.jpg

A feature that connects the two can be found in the gematria of words 4 to 8; the sum of these 5 words is 1801


the heaven and the earth. And the earth Gen 1:1b-2a

4 את 401
5 השמים 395
6 ואת 407
7 הארץ 296
8 וְהָאָ֗רֶץ 302
Total Value 1801

401+395+407+296+302 = 1801, i.e. the numerical hexagon 1801 represents the symmetrical self-intersection of the creation triangle 2701.

Just as the Sohar says of the Trinity

When these three are united in a unit, they are one in a unit.

73 and 37 are also the standard and ordinal value of the Hebrew word chokmah, the word for chokmah (wisdom).

Let's repeat the whole thing with the second word from the verse

In the beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth Gen 1:1
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

this is

created
bara'
בָּרָא

The word consists of the letters

2. ב בּ Bet/Vet 2
20. ר Resh 200
1. א Alef 1

Again, the Bet stands for the word bar, son,
the Resh for ruach, spirit and
the Alef for ab, father.

Who created the heavens and the earth?

All things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.

This divine Trinity is not a static triangle, rather it is the constant movement, a communication of love that underlies the pulsating cycle of life.

Now these three remain: faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

In this conception, G-d becomes a word with which we describe love.

The Trinity affirms an image of G-d that is rooted in plurality and diversity, who is transgender (male Father, female Spirit and two-natured Son, an incarnation of G-d's feminine wisdom) and is immanent, transcendent and personal.

For a faith that sees G-d as active love, a G-d who lives in diversity of expression, as the work of love must, is liberating.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Occams Barber

Why does a good God allow pain and suffering to exist in this world?

In the case that the MGB God does exist, and the Bible is true: There is evidence that this universe and the persons who live or have lived on it are only a part of God’s creation. We don’t know how big or small of a part that might be. It may be that “the heavens” dwarf the earth, just as the...

www.christianforums.com

And some of my posts before and after it in that thread.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Occams Barber

I don't know at all how Jesus came across it or knew it or found out about it, but nowadays it can be deduced through reason, etc. He (Jesus) basically found out about, or proposed an idea about, a much higher Father God than God in the OT, and built an entirely new religion/theology around it, etc, but while also not leaving God in the OT out of it completely, etc. But they are the Trinity under Jesus new covenant/idea/philosophy, etc.

To try and answer some of the type of questions you have been asking in this thread so far lately, God the Highest Father was the only One who has always been 100% completely all-knowing, and all-knowing about all this determinism that has been going on or happening here from the very start, or the very beginning, etc, the only One who always had all-knowledge of or about it completely, etc, because He started or initiated it all from the very beginning completely, etc, and has already known all of how it was all made to "go" by Him from the very beginning. The other two did not know this always and fully completely, etc.

This Highest Father, nothing is ever two or more different possibilities to Him ever, etc, and I mean "not ever", etc, but everything is always absolutely 100% one way always, and always absolutely zero percent another way for Him always, etc. He's never surprised, or shocked, or taken aback, or emotionally moved/stimulated by anything, etc.

But this does leave Him with one limitation, which is exactly where the other Two and their relationship and story and reason for being comes in, etc. The Highest Father's one and only limitation is His not being able to show Himself to us in any kind of real way that we can easily understand completely, which is why He has the other Two to do that for Him completely.

This is why Jesus said to know him was to see/know this Highest Father completely, etc.

But he did not leave the other one out completely, who was God in Creation, and God in the Garden with Adam and Eve, and God in the OT completely, but this One became a part of his new theology also, but as God the Holy Spirit now after what Jesus did for both Him and us completely both in and after and throughout certain events in the NT, etc.

Please look at what I linked, and some posts/replies both before and after it, and hopefully it will shed just a little bit of light on this maybe.

God Bless.

 

[oikonomia]

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.

The triune God makes perfect sense to me. I can't see how He could be any other way.
I mean eternal life means more than life with no end.
It also means qualatitively life with no limitation.

I wonder why I can never muster up enough faith to be an atheist.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Occams Barber

God in the OT, God the Holy Spirit in the new, is "a Father" to us, He's just not the Highest One.

And He was Jesus biological father through Mary also.

And He is/was said to be indwelling Jesus, either always from birth, or at some later point in time (baptism maybe, etc).

Which was way, way different from the norm, and had never been done with any other human being continually or for that long before, etc.

He always kept Himself at a distance from almost all men/people in the OT prior, etc, so this was new to Him, etc.

But it is what's supposed to now be available for all of us freely now under the New Covenant now and after all of what Jesus did in the NT.

God Bless.