Understanding the Trinity

[Occams Barber]

Calling them the Trinity or three in one doesn't answer the how but is a theological term of convience to hold a concept we cannot explain.

Damian

Thank you for trying but, if I'm going to be blunt, your answer can be summed up by the above quote from your post.

Effectively you are repeating the "It's a mystery" theme I've heard from almost every response to this thread. You are also in danger of perpetuating the idea that the unknowability of the Trinity somehow proves its existence.

This is the same logic which is used to 'prove' Genesis etc. and other Christian concepts. In saying this I am not necessarily denying the existence of your God. I am saying that some of the concepts associated with God (like the Trinity) appear to lack a reasonable explanation.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

I think of it as three personhoods in one being call G_d.

This isn't an explanation. It's a statement of belief.

Ask yourself;

Why three bits?​

What is a personhood?​

​

OB​

 

[Occams Barber]

This doesn't mean we can't question these things or ask why, however it does make sense that God is made of a substance we cannot observe or measure since God predates all the stuff we can observe and measure, ergo God is not made of the same stuff we see around us in our space time continum. So we are allowed to responsibly say we don't know and it probably is beyond our ability to know without it being a cop-out.

All you've said here is God is made of 'different' stuff so can't be understood. All you've done is extend the "Its a mystery" theme which runs through almost all responses to this thread. How can you base so much on something you admittedly don't understand. If I don't understand something I don't invent answers.

Before creation when there was only God this would mean God would not be able to love it there was no object to love. And would mean God would need his creation in order to love which would give him limits. Since the concept of God is unchanging and without limits this means love needs to be an innate ability of God well before creation.

None of this relates to the Trinity. It also raises the question of why a being like God needs love (or anything else)

3 is the perfect number because it perfectly contrasts love. I

How and why does the number three 'contrast love' ?

OB

 

[Benaiah468]

It is part of the nature of love that it turns to someone else. In G-d's case, this other cannot be the world; for such a kind of worldly love would be inappropriate. It can only be a ‘person’, one who is equal to G-d in eternity, power and wisdom. However, since there cannot be two G-dly substances, these two G-dly ‘persons’ must form one and the same substance. The perfection of love also includes condilectio, ‘co-love’, in the G-dhead. The best love cannot therefore be limited to these two ‘persons’; it must become condilectio through the desire that a third ‘person’ should be loved in the same way as they love each other. Thus love, if it is perfectly conceived, necessarily leads to the Trinity.

In the Trinity there is a unity of purpose: Father, Son and Spirit have the same plan and work hand in hand to realise that plan. In the Trinity there is also the same love. They love the same things deeply. This is the standard of unity to which we have been called.

 

[Benaiah468]

Christians derive our relational bond as humans to creation through the relationally bound G-d. He exists in love as He is love. We were born of this love and are created to love Him and each other.

Without a G-d who exists eternally in community, as a community rooted in distinction and expressed through communication, we have no basis for love or complete self-understanding. Love exists between ‘persons’, not as a singular capacity or individual attribute. There must be at least one lover and one beloved for love to exist. G-d is therefore love, and we are created because of this love and for this love to be extended to us and through us to one another, cf. 1 John 4:7ff.

G-d is a relational being whose communion of love constitutes His inner communion and explains all His communication. Any consideration of G-d must begin here. In the Son we find the clearest expression and the clearest invitation to know G-d as He truly exists. He is the beloved of the Father, so that in our union with Him through our saving faith we are also loved.

So the invitation is before us to know Christ and to make Him known as one who loves us with an overflowing triune love.

 

[Benaiah468]

Love can never be alone.

The Bible speaks in three ways of G-d as the Creator, the Son as Savior and the Holy Spirit as Comforter. It does not matter how the relationship between the three is to be understood among themselves and in relation to us. It is simply always G-d who is at work.

The three stands for a we in which independence and community are connected, which is based on diversity and shows itself as joy in differences.

We can visualize the Trinity with the pronouns I - You - We. The "you" is only understandable if you assume an "I". The word "I" is initial. In the "we" the "I" and "you" and their relationship to each other are fully recognized.

The dualistic mind sees everything in terms of two, but the Trinity leads us to the law of three instead of the law of two. The law of two is always opposite, the law of three is dynamic and fluid in itself.

The idea that lively and dynamic relationships begin with three is not new.

Sigmund Freud spoke of triangulation in this context. And he describes vividly which individualization processes in the child's development only become possible with the presence of another caregiver. In order to grow out of the symbiotic mother-child relationship, a third person is needed - in his case the father. Only this person makes it possible to break away from the symbiotic mother-child bond and develop the child's autonomy.

As long as we live in a dual consciousness, the relationship with others is always characterized by alliances, complements, and exclusions. We alliances in similarities, we complement each other in our differences, and we distance ourselves from what is alien to us. This means that we are stuck in a dual world. It is based on black and white, right and wrong, above and below. We compare ourselves and judge others to be higher or lower, better or worse. In any case, we can only ever see one side - of ourselves, of others.

If we want to recognize the dazzling facets that are hidden in our blind spots, we need additional perspectives, viewpoints, and angles. And these only come into play with other people. As soon as an additional person enters the relationship space, our self-image and the image of others can become fluid. Suddenly differences become clear and different roles become possible. Limits become tangible - and with them new forms of contact.

Just as our thinking cannot produce a law of physics, it was not a philosopher or myth-teller who produced the Christian idea of the one G-d in three persons. It is more likely to be met with doubt and even resistance because we think of G-d as an earthly ruler in whose person all power is concentrated, which he does not want to share with others.

 

[Benaiah468]

The Trinity is a mystery of faith, one of the mysteries hidden in G-d, which, if not revealed by G-d, could not be known.

We know that the name of G-d in Paleo-Hebrew imagery refers to the Messiah

https://up.picr.de/47966430ge.jpg

It can be read: Behold the nail-pierced hands of the man with uplifted hands!

And we know the numerical value of the name of Jesus in Greek, the language of the NT inspired by G-d

https://up.picr.de/40420543hl.jpg

But what does the number 888 mean?

Why is the number of Him not 111 or 777 instead?

The infinity sign is a mathematical symbol used to symbolise infinity. It resembles a horizontal figure eight. The infinity sign is also called a lemniscate

https://up.picr.de/40648057po.jpg

The number 888 was chosen by G-d to emphasise His infinity and the truthfulness of the Trinity.

The Christian faith holds and confesses that G-d is 1 in nature, substance and essence and yet He has 3 modes of being

https://up.picr.de/40499600sh.jpg

The 888 as 1 number contains the symbol of eternity 3 times.

Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting G-d, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. Isa 40:28

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to G-d, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living G-d? Heb 9:14

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8

Even if the Trinity is difficult for us humans to comprehend, since our visible body consists of matter and the spiritual world is largely closed to us, the name Jesus reveals the Trinity to us in gematrial form every time we read or speak it, so that no one need doubt or ask where the Trinity is to be found in the Bible. Otherwise, we are reminded of the words of the prophet Jeremiah

Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. Jer 33:3

 

[DamianWarS]

All you've said here is God is made of 'different' stuff so can't be understood. All you've done is extend the "Its a mystery" theme which runs through almost all responses to this thread. How can you base so much on something you admittedly don't understand. If I don't understand something I don't invent answers.


None of this relates to the Trinity. It also raises the question of why a being like God needs love (or anything else)

How and why does the number three 'contrast love' ?

OB

if God is the source behind all things it would stand to reason that God exists outside of our space-time and would be immeasurable from our perspective in the inside except where any point of interference happens. we can observe the interference but not the source, science itself would be innately blinded to since it is regarding observation of inside things from the inside. So science can neither prove or disprove God because the space where God would be required to operate must be outside of our own space-time vacuum. This is not a copout answer, it is the logic behind the concept of a God which requires God to preexist and be the source behind our space-time thus separate to. So to talk of God's substance or material wouldn't be of much value as it relates to things we know and even if it did there is no way to access that information. The state of religion requires God to interact with his creation so that his existence can be known which is the role of scripture and various mediums that God speaks through and within Christianity, love is an integral part of God's existence.

We must indulge these views at a level to discuss specifics of theology like the trinity, otherwise, all this is a back and forth about proving if there is a God or not which doesn't help questions as they apply to the trinity as an acceptance of God, even for discussion purposes, is assumed to be able to discuss characteristics of God. So even if you reject the idea of God at least entertain the notion to understand why the trinity is important. With that said I can't explain how 3 in 1 works and don't let any Christian tell you otherwise because it's contradictory but for Christians it's not about establishing the how it's about developing a theological concept of what the bible has revealed and what it values. if those details don't make sense yet this is how scripture presents it then the concept remains in an unexplained state, or perhaps you would prefer to view God like schrodinger's cat except with the cat we can peak in to see the state of the cat, but with God we can't peak. With Christians, we have accepted the existence of God despite not being able to peak over the other side and that's ok with us. if that's ok with you for the purposes of this discussion then we can be more productive discussing the character or nature of God.

The necessity of the trinity is the preexisting state of God requires nothing so anything that requires an object to do that action cannot be accomplished if there is a God described in a single unit (1 in 1) God can indeed love himself but in practice we need an object that's not ourself to demonstrate the fullness of love. so if we describe God as a 2 in 1 you could say each party can love each other so there is a contrast in relationships of 1-2 and 2-1. But even in this love is imperfect as there is no contrasted relationship outside of the single relationship between 2 parties. How does A know what B does is love or hate? or how does B know what A does is love or hate? love needs to have increased contrast for it to be demonstrated perfectly and this is where the economy of 3 in 1 comes into play. Unlike with 1 in 1 where there are no other relationships or with 2 in 1 where there are no contrasting relationships 3 in 1 for the first time introduces fully contrasted relationships. A to B, B to C and C to A. All contrasting each other where love can be demonstrated that cannot happen with 1 or 2 so 3 is the most efficient number to have these innate transitive actions without the need of creating a thing to have it.

Does this prove the trinity? certainly not. but it does present some logic as to why it is needed if we accept that 1. there is a God and 2. God loves us. In order for there to be a God then God does not change, so if his preexisting state has no object to love then love cannot exist even when the object appears and God would exist never loving, and love itself would be an illusion. Obviously, in Christianity, we have a strong value for love so this may be why there is a necessity of the trinity, although it wasn't invented to serve that purpose, as stated it is a word to capture what the bible reveals to us but 3 in 1 happens to be the required minimum number if transitive actions are stated to be a part of God's nature.

 

[Hawkins]

All you've said here is God is made of 'different' stuff so can't be understood. All you've done is extend the "Its a mystery" theme which runs through almost all responses to this thread. How can you base so much on something you admittedly don't understand. If I don't understand something I don't invent answers.


None of this relates to the Trinity. It also raises the question of why a being like God needs love (or anything else)

How and why does the number three 'contrast love' ?

OB

Why do you have to find a cop-out of "it's mystery" when a reasonable explanation is provided.

Do you insist on ants need to fully understand human anatomy in order for humans do to do something good to them?
It is very normal that ants won't be able to fully understand human anatomy. This is not something about "it's mystery". It's a logical and valid line of reasoning. Similarly, it's not hard at all when it's said that humans can't fully understand God.

 

[Solo81]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.



A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.



OB

My own thought is to look at yourself:
You are a body; a soul (intellect, emotions, memory, characteristics, personality)
and a spirit (which in Christian thought is the holy Spirit, who gave us life and sustains us in life)
We are 3 different things but ...it is you. One being.

 

[Grip Docility]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Why does this matter to you? Curiosity? You're 75 and set in your ways. Why is an old dog trying to learn a new trick?

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

I assure you that I can get you to actually understand it, but only if you really give a toot. Is this simply entertaining reading for you?

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

This answer is simple, but takes spatial visualization and creative thought that a man of Hard Logical principles might find ridiculous. Once you see how simple the matter is, you will wonder why it was never answered so plainly. I know the answer to that, also. Why learn a matter that is lower than hypothetical to you, when you don't really care about it, anyways?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.

This is so simple that it would make you chuckle, but again, why care?

A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

I won't do this. I would be willing to speak so plainly that I might get stoned by fellow Christians for doing so. Yet, why should I risk this for your sake?

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.

This is easy. I'm not out to win a trophy, but I am perpetually wondering why you want to look up the skirt of Christianity and be able to comprehend it's most intimate parts. Savvy?

OB

Occam's Barber, you're 75 and visualize yourself as one sharp razor. Well, good day to you. You identify as an "A"-Theist. Would you prefer the term "A"-deist or "Agnostic"? Maybe, back to it, "A"-Theism is your most accurate identification?

I would like to know, before I offer to step up to this challenge if it's worth it and if you really are willing to consider thoughts on this matter. I would also like to establish an understanding of where your hard line of personal faith exists. Faith is not a "Spiritual" thing, only. It is a matter of establishing TRUST in various things. An example is a Parachute. We can see that a parachute opens and tangibly touch it. We know that many people have used them and lived. We also know that they can "Fail". Many war veterans talk about the faith it took to trust a chute that their buddy packed for them, or more specifically their buddy.

Are you the sort of man that understands that it takes faith to jump out of a plane to deploy a parachute and hope to all goodness that the chute opens and saves?

I will be sincere, your answer to this matters to me, because I don't want to waste your time or mine in establishing dialogue with you. To be more honest with you, I'm testing your "spirit". I cant take you drinking and see what kind of attitude "spirit" that you have when you are overtaken by joyful drink, so I'm trying to see what your genuine heart is for asking this.

I will leave this last analogy for your consideration... I was an Atheist for 3 years of my life and these sorts of discussion matters are very personal and important to me. You are familiar with how an oyster gets a grain of sand lodged within it? It irritates the oyster and makes it very "uncomfortable" for the oyster. It uses mechanisms to build up immunity to the pain of that grain of sand that eventually generates a pearl. Before I share a pearl with you, I would like to know if this is just a simple curiosity, or if it genuinely matters to you.

If you are willing to set up a sincere and heartfelt dialogue with me, I promise you that by God, I will be able to help you understand this. This is a very personal thing to teach to someone. It would be a thing that neither you nor I forget. Are you open to this sort of plain, honest, trusting back and forth dialogue with a young 40 something pup like me?

My Brother who I am commanded to Love and serve, whether you see me as a Brother or not, do you want to know this so badly that you will trust me and step into my world of foolishness for just long enough to understand this ONE, very intimate to me, thing?

Thanks for your time in this matter.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.



A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.



OB

The first thing I guess that needs to be addressed is that God is not an individual entity, as we think of it. Let's start with the least understood member of the trinity. It will require a little research, or you can just trust me. The Holy Spirit is not an individual member, but rather is made up of seven spirits. Seven individual personalities. This may come as a surprise, but it is the primary reason why miracles happen in units of seven in the BIble, i.e. seven days of creation, seven times around the walls of Jericho, seven dips in the river to receive healing. Now we must lay the foundation for this in scripture. Let's look at some:

1st you will need to read the whole passage to see the context, but we have:

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

Earlier in the passage those seven were described as:

Zec 4:2-3 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left."

The Holy Spirit was depicted as seven lamps.

Finally we see at the end of the passage:

Zec 4:14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

If we look carefully over the passage we see the LORD is depicted as seven lamps, seven spirits.

Now let's move to the Book of Revelation.

Rev 5:5-5:6 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

The lamb Jesus is said to have seven eyes, which is the Holy Spirit, mentioned in Zechariah. This is not some storage doctrine but was believed by the Early Church Father Justin Martyr who wrote:

Chap. XXXII. — Plato’s Doctrine of the Heavenly Gift.... These things, I think, Plato having learned from the prophets regarding the Holy Ghost, he has manifestly transferred to what he calls virtue. For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit, but clearly declaring in a kind of allegory what the prophets said of the Holy Spirit...

God is not one Spirit, they are so unified that they are depicted as one.

 

[setst777]

The first thing I guess that needs to be addressed is that God is not an individual entity, as we think of it. Let's start with the least understood member of the trinity. It will require a little research, or you can just trust me. The Holy Spirit is not an individual member

All through the New Testament, which is the full revelation of the Gospel now revealed and made known by the command of the Eternal God (Romans 16:25-27), refers to the Holy Spirit of God as one personage - in the singular. This is true even in the Book of Acts, and also in the Four Gospels by Lord Jesus.

Not only that, but the Holy Spirit is plainly referred to as "one Spirit."

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV) 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 2:18 (KJV) 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 4:4 (KJV) 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.

The Holy Spirit is not an individual member, but rather is made up of seven spirits.

Zechariah lists four spirits who go forth, and who are around the Throne of God:

Zechariah 6:5 (KJV) 5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

You listed various Scriptures from the OT and Revelations, totally ignoring the NT. The Scriptures you listed and quoted are all in symbolic language, but even then, the Scriptures you gave do not state or teach that the "Holy Spirit" is made up of seven spirits.

Angels are also called spirits who are sent to earth to minister (Hebrews 1:7; Hebrews 1:13-14; Psalms 104:4).

Could it not be that the seven spirits are the seven angels of God? (Revelation 8:2; Revelation 8:6; Revelation 15:1; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9)

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Why couldn't the seven spirits refer to specific angels, perhaps the Seven Archangels of God in "Enoch 20:1-8" (Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Michael, Sariel, Gabriel, Remiel)?

While the Book of Enoch is not totally accurate, it is not fiction either, as the NT authors do quote it and refer to it in strikingly similar language in many verses; for instance:

Jude 1:14-15/Enoch 2:1-2;
2 Peter 2:4-5/Jude 6/Enoch 1:9;
2 Peter 2:11/Enoch 40:3;
Daniel 9:13-14/Enoch 46:1-3;
Revelation 6:9-10/Enoch 9:9-12;
Revelation 17:14/Revelation19:16/Enoch 9:2-3;
Revelation 19:5/Enoch 61:2-3;
Matthew 22:29-30/Enoch 19:6-7/Enoch 48:2;
Romans 4:7-8/Enoch 80:6

Seven individual personalities. This may come as a surprise, but it is the primary reason why miracles happen in units of seven in the BIble, i.e. seven days of creation, seven times around the walls of Jericho, seven dips in the river to receive healing. Now we must lay the foundation for this in scripture. Let's look at some:

1st you will need to read the whole passage to see the context, but we have:

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

Earlier in the passage those seven were described as:

Zec 4:2-3 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left."

The Holy Spirit was depicted as seven lamps.

None of the Passages you listed depict the Holy Spirit as seven lamps; rather, that is your inference. But here again is how Revelations describes it:

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Finally we see at the end of the passage:

Zec 4:14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

If we look carefully over the passage we see the LORD is depicted as seven lamps, seven spirits.

Now let's move to the Book of Revelation.

Rev 5:5-5:6 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

This is a highly symbolic language. The Lord is not depicted as seven lamps, seven spirits; rather, the Lamb having the seven horns and seven eyes represent the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth, which appear to be angels.

Revelation 1:20; Revelation 8:2; Revelation 8:6; Revelation 15:1; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9

The lamb Jesus is said to have seven eyes, which is the Holy Spirit, mentioned in Zechariah. This is not some storage doctrine but was believed by the Early Church Father Justin Martyr who wrote:

Chap. XXXII. — Plato’s Doctrine of the Heavenly Gift.... These things, I think, Plato having learned from the prophets regarding the Holy Ghost, he has manifestly transferred to what he calls virtue. For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit, but clearly declaring in a kind of allegory what the prophets said of the Holy Spirit...

God is not one Spirit, they are so unified that they are depicted as one.

I am not concerned about what Plato taught, or what his doctrine was. He was a Greek philosopher, not an inspired prophet.

I am thinking you should be more careful, since you are speaking authoritatively for God.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The Bible is highly symbolic, and of course, you could be right, but consider.

None of the Passages you listed depict the Holy Spirit as seven lamps; rather, that is your inference. But here again is how Revelations describes it:

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The angels were stars, not lamps. In seven representing God. The church, who has the Holy Spirit, are lamps. Are there seven churches? No. Again it is symbolic of those belonging to God.

This is a highly symbolic language. The Lord is not depicted as seven lamps, seven spirits; rather, the Lamb having the seven horns and seven eyes represent the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth, which appear to be angels.

Jesus' eyes I doubt to be angels, the Holy Spirit is what gives Him sight. This is a depiction of the Triune nature of God, the Holy Spirit being apart of God.

I am not concerned about what Plato taught, or what his doctrine was. He was a Greek philosopher, not an inspired prophet.

If you look at that quote, it was Justin Maytrs doctrine "compared" to Plato's. Plato did not say the Holy Spirit is seven members, Justin Martyr did.

Justin Marytr - For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit

You have to ask yourself why does God use the number seven so often when miracles occur. It is not to honor angels, but God Himself.

 

[setst777]

The Bible is highly symbolic, and of course, you could be right, but consider.

The angels were stars, not lamps. In seven representing God. The church, who has the Holy Spirit, are lamps. Are there seven churches? No. Again it is symbolic of those belonging to God.

Yes, symbolic, of which there are many interpretations by scholars. What is certain, however, is that the seven lamps or candlesticks represent the churches of Lord Jesus. The seven stars represent seven angels, or spirits.

Jesus' eyes I doubt to be angels, the Holy Spirit is what gives Him sight. This is a depiction of the Triune nature of God, the Holy Spirit being apart of God.

Maybe; however, Lord Jesus sent forth His seven angels into the earth to minister and carry out his instructions (Revelation 1:20; Revelation 8:2; Revelation 8:6; Revelation 15:1; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9). It is not a far stretch to imagine that the seven spirits are the seven angels sent forth into the earth.

The Holy Spirit, in the NT, is always referred to in the singular (John 7:37-39; John 16:13-15; John 14:15-17; Acts 5:32; Luke 3:16. 22; Luke 12:10-12), and as one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:18; Ephesians 4:4; Revelation 22:17).

In the Book of Revelation, the term "seven eyes" and "seven spirits" is not referenced as referring to the Holy Spirit.

However, in the Book of Revelation, I see the seven spirits as referring to the seven angels, because those are the only seven spirits identified in the Book of Revelation (Revelation 1:20; Revelation 8:2; Revelation 8:6; Revelation 15:1; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9).

If you look at that quote, it was Justin Maytrs doctrine "compared" to Plato's. Plato did not say the Holy Spirit is seven members, Justin Martyr did.

I didn't look up the quote; rather, I just read what you wrote. And it looks to me from what you wrote, that those were the words of Plato.

Justin Marytr - For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues; wishing by all means to avoid mention of the Holy Spirit

You have to ask yourself why does God use the number seven so often when miracles occur. It is not to honor angels, but God Himself.

I will not get into a discussion into the number 7, as if that justifies your teaching that the seven spirits, seven lampstands, or seven eyes, must all definitely be referring to the Holy Spirit as divided into seven personalities and seven spirits. I do not see that being taught anywhere in the Bible. Yet, that is what you are teaching, as if it were fact.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Yes, symbolic, of which there are many interpretations by scholars. What is certain, however, is that the seven lamps or candlesticks represent the churches of Lord Jesus. The seven stars represent seven angels, or spirits.



Maybe; however, Lord Jesus sent forth His seven angels into the earth to minister and carry out his instructions (Revelation 1:20; Revelation 8:2; Revelation 8:6; Revelation 15:1; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9). It is not a far stretch to imagine that the seven spirits are the seven angels sent forth into the earth.

The Holy Spirit, in the NT, is always referred to in the singular (John 7:37-39; John 16:13-15; John 14:15-17; Acts 5:32; Luke 3:16. 22; Luke 12:10-12), and as one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:18; Ephesians 4:4; Revelation 22:17).

In the Book of Revelation, the term "seven eyes" and "seven spirits" is not referenced as referring to the Holy Spirit.

However, in the Book of Revelation, I see the seven spirits as referring to the seven angels, because those are the only seven spirits identified in the Book of Revelation (Revelation 1:20; Revelation 8:2; Revelation 8:6; Revelation 15:1; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9).



I didn't look up the quote; rather, I just read what you wrote. And it looks to me from what you wrote, that those were the words of Plato.



I will not get into a discussion into the number 7, as if that justifies your teaching that the seven spirits, seven lampstands, or seven eyes, must all definitely be referring to the Holy Spirit as divided into seven personalities and seven spirits. I do not see that being taught anywhere in the Bible. Yet, that is what you are teaching, as if it were fact.

When I get time I will discuss the passage in Zechariah in more detail, it is the key passage to note.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This isn't an explanation. It's a statement of belief.

Ask yourself;

Why three bits?​

What is a personhood?​

​

OB​

The Three is because that is what our sacred texts and our received tradition of faith state. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that's three. That's why three.

The Trinity isn't a philosophical proposition, but us trying to make sense of something we believe to be revealed. Presupposing the concept of the Trinity is the reality that God is; and the presupposition that this God has said, done, and revealed things which the stories contained in our sacred texts testify. And we are left with wrestling with trying to confess our belief in this God, given those things.

While I believe the Trinity, conceptually, can be explained--the theology can be explained and understood, as I have tried to articulate in my earlier posts. There is always going to be a dimension of the unknowable with God.

A central Christian tenet about God is that God is, in His essence, entirely unknowable. I can never know what God is. So words like "ousia" "being" "essence" are all ways of talking about something intrinsically unknowable. That God is we "know" by grace and revelation, this is not an epistemological statement, it is, intrinsically, a statement of faith. It is perfectly reasonable why that sounds like a cop-out, on the other hand every single believing Christian participating in this thread almost certainly knows what I'm talking about if I talk about an encounter with grace.

So what exists here is a dichotomy between God being entirely and totally unknowable; and also knowable. Unknowable in His essence, but knowable in His grace.

Any and all meaningful discourse about Christianity is going to involve accepting things like this as presuppositional to Christianity.

If I were to build, from the ground up, a doctrine of God using reason, philosophy, I wouldn't end up with the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity isn't the result of a building a ground-up doctrine to satisfy reason; but Christians trying to say the least wrong thing about the God they, in faith, understand to have come and become encountered in the stories of our sacred texts, in the human being known as Jesus of Nazareth, and the collective experience of grace which Christians across generations testify of.

So there's Three, because that's what we meet, encounter, experience, read, receive.
Personhood because not only do these Three relate to us in a personal way, they relate to each other in a relational way. There is both an intrinsic relationality and an extrinsic relationality. The term "Person" and "Personhood" describe that we are dealing with Someones; rather than some kind of impersonal something.

This results in us saying God is One Something; and Three Someones.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I will not get into a discussion into the number 7, as if that justifies your teaching that the seven spirits, seven lampstands, or seven eyes, must all definitely be referring to the Holy Spirit as divided into seven personalities and seven spirits. I do not see that being taught anywhere in the Bible. Yet, that is what you are teaching, as if it were fact.

I have tried to show this in picture form so it makes more sense.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

This will make no sense unless you study chapter 4 (what I have previously discussed in my posts), but I put it here as supporting texts to that dialog. Looking around Chapter 4 to see its context is chapter 3 which states:

Zec 3:8-9 'Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, You and your companions who sit before you, For they are a wondrous sign; For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. For behold, the stone That I have laid before Joshua: Upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Note the passage before chapter 4 talks of Jesus known as the BRANCH. The stone placed before Joshua has seven eyes, (the stone that the builders rejected), its engraving is God will remove the iniquity of the land in one day.

Then it moves on to chapter 4, which I discussed in the previous posts, it talks of the Seven Spirits of God (eyes of the LORD) sent into all the earth. In the passage about the LORD's eyes, it additionally makes the following statement:

Zec 4:6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.

This hints to the fact the LORD's eyes or seven spirits, are the LORD's Spirit, and are also important in the coming of the BRANCH, Jesus. We know Jesus was not subject to angels but to God's Spirit.

Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

As we see in Revelation Jesus is linked to the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the earth. His eyes ARE the seven spirits. We know Jesus does not need to see via angels, for He fills all things.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

@setst777 You stated that the seven spirits of God are angels, but like I said the BRANCH, Jesus is not supported by angels, but by God's own Spirit. His physical eyes would be better described as God's spirit not angels.

You mentioned that Seven Angels are mentioned in the Book of Revelation, so they must be the Seven Spirits of God. But so too are seven churches mentioned, seven thunders, seven scrolls, there is a lot of sevens there. In fact the Seven Spirits of God are mentioned separately to angels in the following passage:

Rev 4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Seven is important to God, I say because His own Spirit, the Holy Spirit, is sevenfold.

Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Note the seven angels were called stars, they are distinct from the Seven Spirits of God.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, 'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:

Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

In the above, we see the angels are stars. We also note that the Church is depicted as candle sticks because they contain the Holy Spirit.

 

[setst777]

Thank you for your detailed response.

This will make no sense unless you study chapter 4 (what I have previously discussed in my posts), but I put it here as supporting texts to that dialog. Looking around Chapter 4 to see its context is chapter 3 which states:

Zec 3:8-9 'Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, You and your companions who sit before you, For they are a wondrous sign; For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. For behold, the stone That I have laid before Joshua: Upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Note the passage before chapter 4 talks of Jesus known as the BRANCH. The stone placed before Joshua has seven eyes, (the stone that the builders rejected), its engraving is God will remove the iniquity of the land in one day.

Then it moves on to chapter 4, which I discussed in the previous posts, it talks of the Seven Spirits of God (eyes of the LORD) sent into all the earth. In the passage about the LORD's eyes, it additionally makes the following statement:

Zec 4:6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.

This hints to the fact the LORD's eyes or seven spirits, are the LORD's Spirit, and are also important in the coming of the BRANCH, Jesus. We know Jesus was not subject to angels but to God's Spirit.

Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

As we see in Revelation Jesus is linked to the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the earth. His eyes ARE the seven spirits. We know Jesus does not need to see via angels, for He fills all things.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

@setst777 You stated that the seven spirits of God are angels, but like I said the BRANCH, Jesus is not supported by angels, but by God's own Spirit. His physical eyes would be better described as God's spirit not angels.

The "seven eyes of the Lord" appear to be a symbol of God's omniscience by means of His Spirit, because the New Testament teaches us that there is only one Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:18; Ephesians 4:4; Revelation 22:17), and the Holy Spirit is always mentioned in the singular in the whole Bible, except in visions.

I don't believe we can teach as fact about that nature of God from symbolic language, do you?

You mentioned that Seven Angels are mentioned in the Book of Revelation, so they must be the Seven Spirits of God. But so too are seven churches mentioned, seven thunders, seven scrolls, there is a lot of sevens there. In fact the Seven Spirits of God are mentioned separately to angels in the following passage:

Rev 4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Seven is important to God, I say because His own Spirit, the Holy Spirit, is sevenfold.

I would never use the word "must," regarding books of visions and symbols, but that is what it seems to me; because, when it comes to Revelation, and some parts of the OT prophecy, there is a high degree of symbolism; and so, I cannot rely on symbolism to teach me the clearly the things about God's being.

I would agree that the number seven is a symbol of spiritual completion in God's order of things; but not to say that the number "seven" is always just "symbolic" for completion. For instance, even though Revelation is symbolic, it does describe the roles of seven angels often. I think these are real angels, seven in number; but that does not mean I can say this must be so, since this may also be symbolism.

And I would agree that, if the "seven spirits" is referring to the Holy Spirit, then this is a sign of completion - the sevenfold Spirit of God - because, the New Testament does state that the Holy Spirit is one (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:18; Ephesians 4:4; Revelation 22:17), and this seemed important for the Church to know; otherwise, the Apostolic Writers would not have stressed the importance of there being "one Spirit."

And so, the term "seven spirits" may signify God's omniscience and also the seven functions of the Spirit - one Spirit that is described in six ways (Isaiah 11:2). And so, the seven eyes of the Lord may refer to the seven-fold Spirit - a complete number representing the muti-faceted functions of the Spirit. If that is the case, then the seven eyes of the Lord may refer to the work of the one Spirit, even though the "seven eyes" and "seven spirits" are plural.

Yes, I see what you mean by the lampstand with its seven lamps, along with the seven eyes of the Lord, are both referring to the "seven spirits, and that these "seven spirits" would likely be referring to the Holy Spirit, but can also refer to assemblies of the faithful by whom the Spirit indwells, as you say.

What do you think the golden olive oil (Zechariah 4:12) stands for that pours out of the "two witnesses" (olive branches), and appears to feed the Lampstand in "Zechariah 4:2-3"?

Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Note the seven angels were called stars, they are distinct from the Seven Spirits of God.

Yes, I see that. Thank you for explaining.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, 'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:

Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

In the above, we see the angels are stars. We also note that the Church is depicted as candle sticks because they contain the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I would agree with that.

So, would you say that since the Church is depicted as seven Churches, and also seven Lampstands, would you say the number "seven" definitely refers to the number of churches being "seven," or that "seven" represents something spiritual?

If you say "spiritual," could the "seven spirits" not also refer to the "one Spirit" in the same manner?

Do you still believe that the Holy Spirit is composed of a literal "seven spirits" with seven personalities?