Understanding the Sabbath

BRO BROWN,
all of your assertions are unfounded and have already been scripturally disproven in this thread and another that is currently in use...so you really needed not to waste your time.

Israels laws are in our hearts...the NC was given to Isarel. You are an Israelite, a Jew and Abraham's seed. Better check Heb. again. If you do not claim to be part of God's Israel than you do not have part in his NC, because that is who it is for.

bjh,
Paul most assuredly did not promote contrary to Gods law at least not while He was inspired and doing the will of the Lord. Col. 2 spells out very clearly that the laws that Paul was against were those which man had added. The premise of that chapter is mans doctrines versus God's. It upholds the Sabbath as laid forth by our Lord, and disposes of the contrary laws that were added by men. It is probably one of the strongest NT references for Godly Sabbath keeping, yet many take a single verse out of context and twist it to say the opposite. Sadly...it is quite ironic since it was mens doctrines regarding the sabbath that he was addressing. So men are doing TO THAT scripture, exactly what he is condemning them for doing IN THAT scripture! Geeez...nothing has changed and no lessons learned.

Bro Brown

1 Cor. 16:2
"On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come."

Where was all this going to be stored? This only impies that Paul told the people to lay things aside so that when he came he could collect them to take to the believers at Jerusalem. There is no command here to worship on Sunday. There is no mention of a church or a meeting. This storing up was to be done at home.

Really bro brown go back and read the earlier posts here and on the other thread....you are repeatingthe myths that have already been disproven. It would be much more considerate for you to read than to make us keep proving Sunday advocates to be in error.

Symes said:

Acts 20:7
"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

We should not read into this text more than what it says. Why were they gathered on the first day of the week?

Because paul was going to depart the next day.

When did this meeting take place?

Verse 8 tells us.

"And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together"

It was at night time. According to Jewish reckoning that would make it a Saturday night. Not Sunday at all.

If Paul considered Sunday as sacred then why would he spend the entire day travelling and not at worship.

Paul was a Sabbath keeper.

Acts 13:42-44
"As Paul and Barnabas left the meeting house the people said, `Tell us these things again next Sabbath day.'
43 The meeting was finished. There were many Jews, also those who were not Jews but worshipped God. They followed Paul and Barnabas. Paul and Barnabus kept talking to the people and told them to keep on living in the way that will bring God's blessing.
44 The next Sabbath day almost all of the people in that city gathered to hear God's word."

Acts 17:2
"As he had done in other places, Paul went into it. On three Sabbath days he explained what was written in the holy writings."

Acts 16:13
"On the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the river. We thought this was a place where people met to talk with God. So we sat down and talked to the women who had come there."

Acts 18:4
"Every Sabbath day he talked with the people in the meeting place for the Jews. He tried to talk so that the Jews and the Greeks would believe"

In all of this it is plain to see that Paul was a Sabbath keeper. The Sabbath being the same Sabbath that the Jews kept. That being the seventh day of the week.



Thanks for bringing that to my notice.

Amen to John's post.

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I thought the issue was whether or not we, as Gentiles, keep the Sabbath. Or perhaps a little milder, if we must meet on the Sabbath.

Symes, May I ask which Bible version you are quoting from?
The reason I ask is because, in Acts 13:43 the versions I read speak of "the Jews and the religious proselytes" (converts to Judaism). So we might expect them to meet on the Sabbath. I have no arguments with Paul talking with other Jews or proselytes meeting in the synagogues on the Sabbath.

I'm not advocating keeping Sunday, or any other day, as Sacred. In my understanding, it isn't the day that matters. Paul seems to speak against focusing on the day as being one of the "elemental things" in Galatians 4:8-10.

It would be my understanding that he is speaking of dead works performed out of obligation and not love. Does your spouse not want you to have an affair simply because you shouldn't, or because you love them so much you would never want to be unfaithful and break the covenant of marriage? This is why Christ spoke of the spirit of the law...before one ever breaks the letter of the law they had already broken the spirit. Therefore the mere thought of breaking it, is breaking it.

When the law is performed out of love the burden is removed, the love makes it YOUR desire to keep it. When it becomes your own desire, it is not a burden.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Actually violating the Sabbath, as on Saturday, cares the same death sentence as murdering someone. I suppose that if one abstained from work and commerce on Saturday, that one could still worship on Sunday or Monday, as long as a substitution wasn’t being made. But Saturday is a day for feasting with fellow believers and as such, I think that worship would be a given on that day as well.
William

Hey k4c/John;

Thanks for responding. I want you to know, John, that I do not live by the law, however I do obey all the Commandments and I do this for the sake of righteousness. You see, the final authority on righteous living is the Messiah who demonstrated for us just how to walk. A common mistake that people make is that they equate the word “law” with the “Commandments of God”, however as I hope to show you and others in the posts that follow, is that this is a grave mistake.

You are correct in saying that there is no condemnation if we are in Christ, however, this word “in” carries with it the entire sum total of all the Commandments found written within the O.T. You quote Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”, and rightfully so. I want you to take special notice of the later part of that verse, “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

Now, you have to ask yourself, “did the Messiah obey all the Commandments”? If the answer is yes, then the next question is, “do you”? Now if you do not, then how might you consider yourself one who does not walk after the flesh? Answer, you are following the law. Which law, man’s teachings.

John, I know that you can not possibly know what law means in each instance in the N.T., however suffice it to say that it can mean, instructor, instructions, etc, and in each case you have to be able to discern and interpret whether the context is implying God’s instructor or God’s instructions or man’s instructions/instructor. Now I, having trained myself in the Greek and fully able to correctly translate the word law in each case, am able to tell you that without a doubt, that if you do not obey the Commandments, you won’t make it.

Therefore when I read Paul’s words such as, “by the deeds of the law will no man be justified”, it is rather easy for me to see that he isn’t referring to the obeying the Commandments, for if he is, then he is in direct opposition of the Messiah. For Yahoshua says, “if you want life, obey the Commandments”, and, “go and sin no more”. Now, the Commandments state what sin is, and the law (instructor) might elaborate on them in a sound way if he is called of God.

Now the law doesn’t necessarily show us what sin is, however the Commandments do. The instructor (law) might well lie to us as was the case 2000 years ago with the leaders, much like it is today. The ultimate instructor is Jesus for he is the end of the law (intended goal for instructors). He too says that it is enough for the student to become like the teacher.

Getting back to Paul’s letters, when he says “by the deeds of the law will no man be justified”, it is rather elementary to see that what Paul intents to say is that by the deeds of the instructors of his time, will no man make it. Now Paul obviously isn’t referring to the Head Master, but rather to the ones who deemed themselves as the final authority on matters. Jesus too calls them hypocrites. He says that unless we do it better than those other guys, we ain’t a gonna’ make it.

Now if I open the Greek, here too I see that the word is instructor in the above case, and not Commandments.

If you have any verses that trouble you, please ask, I am here to serve.

William

Hi John;

Sorry John, but you are in error. The law does not mean the spoken commandments to our hearts, as you say, and especially not I the very first verse you post. You quote several verses so allow me to address them one at a time. I see that this thread is quickly being high-jacked off topic so in the end of this post, I hope to once again steer it in the direction of the Sabbath issue.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

If you look at the above passage, going with your explanation, this would then imply that we do not want to be under the spoken commandments of God to our hearts. This would constitute as blasphemy.

This verse clearly addresses “their” instructions. For the answer as to who’s instructions Paul is referring to, you need to turn back to Galatians 4:17 17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. (KJV)

Paul is addressing a sect which was anti the true message of the Christ. Remember that it was the leaders at that time whom persecuted all those who stood for the truth. This sect wanted the alienation of Jews from the converted Gentiles. You can not just read one verse and think that you will make sense of it, after all, this is a letter, not a manual.

Next verse you post, obviously in no order, is the following;
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

This verse says that anointed instructors were given us as our tutors till the coming of Anointed Instructor, so that we would be truly righteous out of a faithfulness.

Again with your interpretation of the word law “that the law means the spoken commandments to our hearts”, this would then imply that it is past tense and therefore this no longer happens.



When you quote Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The latter part of this verse says, “It is within these two commandments that the anointed instructor has his parameter and the prophets shall reason.

The 10 Commandments are a given, they are an absolute and for you to try and reason that we are sinners and the net outcome is that we will remain sinners, is not sound. I read no where that a sinner will inherit anything good. If you are a sinner, you will die, so why not change your ways, John?

You say, “We can never make the old man within us good through keeping the 10 commandments.”, John, you are contradicting the Messiah for He says, “if you want life, obey the Commandments”. I will take His word over yours.

You say, “Jesus will give us inward rest (inward Sabbath) from working the law for righteousness in an attempt of making the old man good”. John, if you sin, you will pay for your sins, if you submit to the Commandments of God and do good, you will inherit Life and reap a reward, you can not disassociate yourself with your delinquent actions. There is no Messiah who will pay for the sins of anyone who does not take deliberate actions to walk as He did.

It would appear to me that you do not obey the Sabbath, and it has no effect on me whether you do or do not. But make no mistake about it, if you do not, you will have no part of goodness in the hereafter. Why be proud? Why try and make your own rules and exceptions to the Commands of God? Do you suppose that you will change the ancient Ways?

Jeremiah 18:15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up;
Do you give heed to YaHVeH?

William

Isaiah 56:1 Thus saith YaHVeH, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to YaHVeH, speak, saying, YaHVeH hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith YaHVeH unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YaHVeH, to serve him, and to love the name of YaHVeH, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 YaHVeH GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant. (KJV)

John;

Let me see if I got you straight. You do not keep the Sabbath, yet you would like to instruct me as to what is permissible and what is not permissible for me to do on the Sabbath? Would you like to bind me with instructions which aren’t from God but supposedly apply to the Sabbath so that I might have a distaste for one of the highest Covenants man can enter with the Most High God?

You say that the Sabbath under the old covenant means, no fires, no cooking, no driving, no working and the such. Let me ask you, did YaHVeH tell you this? Where do you get this from?

Then you suggest that you in fact have a new and better way of keeping the Sabbath under a new covenant in listening to the still small voice which comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. John, let me assure you, that if you do not keep the Commandments of God physically, there is no Holy Spirit dwelling within you, you have mistaken the small voice. You have trusted your heart rather than the written Word of God.

Yes John, I live by the law under the old convenant for righteousness, I live by each one perfectly. Whether I have broken them all or just one is hardly the issue, for you break each one. Ands yes, John, I obey all the Commandments, I do not sin. After all, why would I? Have you no idea what the penalty for sin is? Why would anyone take instructions from the blind, the sinner?

You say, “The new convenant is spiritual or inward, applied to our minds”. How convenient. Try telling your spouse this while you are having an affair. Try telling it to the officials of the land when you are guilty of murder. Better yet, try telling it to the Almighty Judge on that DAY when you are being tried for violating His Sacred Statute.

Again John, it really doesn’t matter to me one way or the other, I walk among sinners everyday, that doesn’t sway me. I just wouldn’t want you to think that you actually have instructions from the Father. Go ahead, sin all you want, but there is no Messiah from God that can help you if you do not take His Lead.

In Pursuit of Clemency
William

Praise God that we have a Sabbath to keep.

Happy Sabbath to everyone, even if a person does not believe in the seventh day Sabbath, it is still there.

Symes said:

Praise God that we have a Sabbath to keep.

Happy Sabbath to everyone, even if a person does not believe in the seventh day Sabbath, it is still there.

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Indeed, praise the Lord and love to all...

Happy Sabbath brethren,
may the Lord radiate His Sabbath blessing in your lives as you walk with Him this day and set aside your own business for His. This day was made for our benefit, may you use in the joy that it was intended to be.

Just for clarification, the Sabbath of God is on Saturday. All the waking hours of the seventh arousal. From sunrise on the seventh day till sunrise on the first day of the week. Now, man can have his sabbath any day of the week, however it would not constitute having kept God’s Sabbath.

William

My wife is a firm Seventh day Adventist who believes Ellen G White is an inspired prophet of God. I am a non denominatial Christian who totally rejects
Ellen White and her Spirit of Prophecy.

I do not know much about the other Saturday keeping church's but I know
a little something about Adventism.

The Adventist Sabbath has its roots not in the bible but in the failed time setting scheme of William Miller. Miller predicted that Jesus would return between march 1843 and march 1844. When this time had passed they again set a new date of Oct 22 1844 believing this to be the Jewish day of atonement. They were wrong on both counts ,1. Jesus did not come,2. Oct 22 was not the day of atonement in 1844. Sept 23 was the 1844 day of atonement. Some Adventists will say they were not using the Orthodox Jewish calander. They say they were using the Karite Jewish calader. but if you do a little research you will find that the karite day of Atonement was also Sept 23. One should also note that Miller never became an Adventist and rejected their teachings.

On October 23 Hiram Edson had what is now called the Sanctuary vision.
upon this vision rests all Adventists doctrine.The Investigative Judgment, The Scape Goat, The Shutdoor, The Sabbath Etc.

True Adventism does not believe the atoning work was finished at the cross.
they believe the earthly part of the atonement was completed at the cross. On October 22 1844 according to Edsons vision, Jesus entered into the Holy
of Holies in the Heavenly temple to complete the the spiritual aspect of atonement. According to original Adventists doctrine Satan plays a part in this final atonement. In the atonement two goats were used. One was killed and one was left alive. The highpriest placed is hands upon the live goat thus transfering the sins of the congregation to the live goat{Lev 16} and then the live goat was sent into the wilderness to die. According to original Adventists doctrine Jesus will lay our sins upon Satan and Satan will be the Scapegoat. So Satan has a part in our salvation as the sin bearing scape goat.

Also your sins are not yet forgiven because the investigative judgment is still on going. Ellen White taught that a person should never say they are saved and that it is impossible for our sins to be blotted out while the Investigative Judgment is in progress. According to Adventist doctrine each and every persons case must be reviewed in the court of Heaven. This was supposed to have been accomplished by the fall of 1851 for according to sister White and Joseph Bates there was to be a tarrying time of seven years
from Oct.1844 and then Christ would return. But due to some kind of technical difficulty the investigative judgment has has been going on for over 160 years. Maybe thier is a shortage of lawyers in heaven.

From Joseph Bates came the Sabbath Doctrine. Then Ellen White had a vision confirming this teaching and if Ellen White says its true then it must be so because according to Adventists she had the gift of prophecy. The Original
Sabbath doctrine was used as a type of Judgment. Sister White claimed God was now using the Sabbath as a Test for true believers. Any one who heard their Sabbath message and did not accept it was a false Christian who did not really love the Lord. They were worshiping the the Beast{the Pope}on his holy day.{Sunday} They consider Sunday to be the Mark Of the Beast. So according to Adventist doctrine the Sabbath is a test to see if you are truly saved. They believe that the Sabbath is the seal of the Living God and all true beleivers are sealed by the Sabbath. Apparently they are not familiar with Eph.1:13.

They also beleive {due to the prophecies of ellen white} That there is a coming universal Sunday law backed by the pope where any one who does not worship on Sunday will be executed. Thus the Adventists are the martyrs of Revealation. Strangely enough the Adventists kept the Sabbath incorrecly for ten years. When sister White was informed of this naturally she had a vision and saw it was so. She claimed that when she asked her guiding angel why this had happened the angel replied Ye shall know, but not yet. Ellens angel had a fondness for always speaking in the King James style English. Sister White has been dead many years now and still they have not received an answer to that question. It should be interesting to see how the Pope is going to get several Billion Muslims,Hiindus,Buddihsts and Jews to convert to Catholicism

Ellen White was also an Arian beleiver. Like the Jehovahs she believed Jesus
is really the archangel Michael. But he got a promotion and was made equal
with God. So God did not really die on the cross. An exalted angel died for your sins. Not God in the flesh. This also means the Adventists do not believe
in the trinity because to them Jesus is actually a created being.

Adventists like to say Jesus worshiped on the Sabbath and this is true.
Gal4:4 explains why. Jesus was born under the Law of Moses. He had to fulfill that law in order to bring in the new testament so you and I could receive salvation.

Acts 15 deals with what Paul and Barnabas were to teach the new gentile converts to Christ. There was a group of believing pharisee's who claimed they should be circumcised and keep thelaw of moses. now considering they were beleivers it should be obvious they were not talking about the law of sacrifices. The apostle's disagreed. a letter was sent telling the gentiles that the Holy Spirit had shown them that if they abstain from fornication,blood,eating things that had been strangled and meats offered to idols that they would do well. If ever there was a time to establish the Sabbath in the new Testament this was the time. They did not.

Adventists say show us us where in the bible the Sabbath was nailed to the cross. Actually there is a prophecy that plainly states that the weekly Sabbath would pass away and there would be a sign showing when this came to pass. In:

Amos 8:5 Saying,when will the new moon be gone, and the Sabbath that we may set forth wheat making the epah small and the shekel large and falsifying the balances by deciet.

I use kjv so your bible may read a little differently. But as can be plainly seen they are not talking about feasts. They are complaining about the weekly Sabbath.

God answers them in verse 9
And it shall come to pass in that day ,saith the Lord God , that I will cause the sun to go down at noon and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

So we are told by God that when the newmoon and the Sabbath pass there
will be a sign.

in Mark 15:33 we read: And when the sixth hour was come, There was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

In verses 37&38 we read; And Jesus cried with a loud voice , and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom

As our Lord hung upon the cross. God caused the sun to go down at noon
and darkened the earth on a clear day. The prophecy of Amos 8:5 had been fulfilled. And considering the weekly Sabbath was mentioned as part of that prophecy I believe it to was nailed to the cross.

Now I beleive the burden of Scriptural proof rests on the Adventists to show us where in the bible,Not Ellen Whites Spirit of prophecy, that the Sabbath was reinstituted after the cross.

The Adventists have had problems using the Bible alone to support their doctrines. So they wrote their own bible. They do not call it a bible though they call it a paraphrase. It is neither a bible nor a paraphrase. If you are a Christian with a bible based faith it would shock, anger and sicken you to see how they have chopped, hacked and and twisted Gods Holy word to represent their own doctrines. Oddly enough they named it the Clear Word Bible. It is anything but clear.After some public outcry, some of it from with in thier own church,They dropped the word bible and last I saw now it is just called the Clear Word

There is nothing wrong with worshiping on the sabbath. The problem I have is those who would use their worship day to judge others. there are many more places in the scripture that disagree with the Adventist doctrines. As Jesus taught us in John 4:23 that we must worship in Spirit and truth. And if this is what you are doing then God accepts your worship but if you are using it to judge others, well, that is not spirit and truth.

Many modern Adventists are not even really aware of what sister White actually wrote. Her writings are so extensive. There are more than a few Adventists who know and will tell you that there are errors and mistakes in her writings. Also the Adventist church is aware Ellen White plaigerised other Authors writings claiming she received them from God. But in sister Whites day if you even questioned her writings or her authority you would be put out of the church. So more than a few Adventists today would find them selves considered as apostates and be put put out of the church if sister White were alive today

William1 said:

Just for clarification, the Sabbath of God is on Saturday. All the waking hours of the seventh arousal. From sunrise on the seventh day till sunrise on the first day of the week. Now, man can have his sabbath any day of the week, however it would not constitute having kept God’s Sabbath.

William

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william
Sabbath is not from sunrise to sunrise. It is from sunset to sunset. the sabbath actually begins for us at sundown on friday and ends at sundown on saturday
{see DEU 16:6:} remeber that Jesus was crucified on a friday and they took his body down as and put it in josephs tomb and hurried home before sundown because the sabbath was coming

deu 58

According to the Bible, all days are from sunset till sunset. "The evening and the morning were the ________ day." Not the morning and the evening.