Understanding The Eucharist

[Maniel]

Thanks both of you for the replies.

To better understand, is the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist different from other times He may be present for example in prayer? In the way that we are together with Christ as He gives his body and blood for us? It makes sense of course, that this is one if not the most intimate and important events in the time of history. So while I may not take the Eucharist to be exactly as a catholic, it moves my heart what it does, represents and so on. I just can't seem to understand the necessity for us to receive his flesh in the way you describe it. Not literal, but still his flesh? I get confused in these little but I'm sure important nuances.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Morning,
Yes, the Eucharist is the most intimate moment for Christians who believe in the Real Presence. There are even special prayers for the night before, right before and after taking communion for most of these bodies.

I'll share the Orthodox side and let others chime in. So while we may not take communion every time it is offered, it is expected that you have some regular consistency. Ordinarily, Orthodox have regular confession a few days prior to planning on taking communion. That way we are approaching the chalice without the burden of sins. We are supposed to fast from food, entertainment, and even marital relations the night before. Where it is offered, we may attend the Saturday Vespers service. Prior to taking communion, we will prayer a series of pre-communion prayers.

Prayers of Preparation Before Holy Communion | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

This is a snippet of one of them from St. John Chrysostom:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own precious Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.
​

After communion we will partake of blessed bread (and in the Slavic traditions, a small glass of wine) to remove any remains of the Eucharistic elements. This will be followed by some short post-Communion prayers.

 

[The Liturgist]

Morning,
Yes, the Eucharist is the most intimate moment for Christians who believe in the Real Presence. There are even special prayers for the night before, right before and after taking communion for most of these bodies.

I'll share the Orthodox side and let others chime in. So while we may not take communion every time it is offered, it is expected that you have some regular consistency. Ordinarily, Orthodox have regular confession a few days prior to planning on taking communion. That way we are approaching the chalice without the burden of sins. We are supposed to fast from food, entertainment, and even marital relations the night before. Where it is offered, we may attend the Saturday Vespers service. Prior to taking communion, we will prayer a series of pre-communion prayers.

Prayers of Preparation Before Holy Communion | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

This is a snippet of one of them from St. John Chrysostom:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own precious Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.
​

After communion we will partake of blessed bread (and in the Slavic traditions, a small glass of wine) to remove any remains of the Eucharistic elements. This will be followed by some short post-Communion prayers.

I myself agree with the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian approaches. The Copts do something similiar to the Slavic wine, which is to drink blessed holy water after the Eucharist. The Assyrians eat a sweet sugary morsel as antidoron.

By the way, the practice of antidoron is not, just to clarify, primarily to wipe down the Eucharist; rather the blessed bread (antidoron is blessed but is not the Eucharist) was historically distributed to all of the attendees, so that no one left church hungry, because of the great distances people had to walk in antiquity in order to get to church.

This is mentioned in this very interesting video on the Eastern Orthodox liturgy of Preparation, also called the Prothesis or Proskomide:

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Thanks for the clarification. As for a post-liturgy meal, we've now got donuts and coffee

 

[Maniel]

Morning,
Yes, the Eucharist is the most intimate moment for Christians who believe in the Real Presence. There are even special prayers for the night before, right before and after taking communion for most of these bodies.

I'll share the Orthodox side and let others chime in. So while we may not take communion every time it is offered, it is expected that you have some regular consistency. Ordinarily, Orthodox have regular confession a few days prior to planning on taking communion. That way we are approaching the chalice without the burden of sins. We are supposed to fast from food, entertainment, and even marital relations the night before. Where it is offered, we may attend the Saturday Vespers service. Prior to taking communion, we will prayer a series of pre-communion prayers.

Prayers of Preparation Before Holy Communion | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

This is a snippet of one of them from St. John Chrysostom:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own precious Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.
​

After communion we will partake of blessed bread (and in the Slavic traditions, a small glass of wine) to remove any remains of the Eucharistic elements. This will be followed by some short post-Communion prayers.

Well that is beautiful and very exotic to what I've ever done before personally. I see both richness and humbleness in doing so. But at the same time it also feels very ritualistic, "mechanical", repetitive. I don't mean that in a wrong or bad way, but am I wrong in saying that the early Christians wasn't as dogmatic? But I guess they were, they were Jews after all. And I see problems all over my own lifestyle in not repeating things that in fact is very important spiritually. But as an outsider, it would take a whole lifestyle change, and I wonder if Jesus or God really care that much that we ritually do these things in such a way over and over? Jesus seemed to be breaking many Jewish habits, but I could be wrong of course. It is very inspiring to say the least and I thank you for spelling it out for me in this way!

I've seen people form the Pentecostal movement here in Denmark, which is pretty different from the ones in America I think, show many signs of deep communion and worship to God. But more loosely, as they don't have that many rituals.

And I see the same thing in in the Orthodox movement, deep communion and worship, and taking rituals very seriously.

I'm sure I'm wrong, but I've come to compare people to their likeness of chocolate. Some like dark and some light, and in their act of worship it comes out differently in their ways of personality. I could see people more on the introvert/autistic side be more drawn to rituals and extroverts on a more free church style. And I find myself somewhere in the middle not sure what I find to be right or what I prefer. Anyways, that's off-topic for another day.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thanks for the clarification. As for a post-liturgy meal, we've now got donuts and coffee

A number of Orthodox parishes serve a full meal after the Eucharist year round. For example, All Saints ROCOR in Las Vegas under the retired archbishop Vladyka Nikolai. Also, most Coptic churches and Assyrian churches I have visited, and some Episcopalian and Anglican churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well that is beautiful and very exotic to what I've ever done before personally. I see both richness and humbleness in doing so. But at the same time it also feels very ritualistic, "mechanical", repetitive. I don't mean that in a wrong or bad way, but am I wrong in saying that the early Christians wasn't as dogmatic? But I guess they were, they were Jews after all. And I see problems all over my own lifestyle in not repeating things that in fact is very important spiritually. But as an outsider, it would take a whole lifestyle change, and I wonder if Jesus or God really care that much that we ritually do these things in such a way over and over? Jesus seemed to be breaking many Jewish habits, but I could be wrong of course. It is very inspiring to say the least and I thank you for spelling it out for me in this way!

I've seen people form the Pentecostal movement here in Denmark, which is pretty different from the ones in America I think, show many signs of deep communion and worship to God. But more loosely, as they don't have that many rituals.

And I see the same thing in in the Orthodox movement, deep communion and worship, and taking rituals very seriously.

I'm sure I'm wrong, but I've come to compare people to their likeness of chocolate. Some like dark and some light, and in their act of worship it comes out differently in their ways of personality. I could see people more on the introvert/autistic side be more drawn to rituals and extroverts on a more free church style. And I find myself somewhere in the middle not sure what I find to be right or what I prefer. Anyways, that's off-topic for another day.

Actually, as someone who specializes in liturgical ritual, I can assure you there are plenty of extroverts in liturgical churches.

I have serious concerns about certain aspects of Pentecostal worship. I think the actual lighter alternative to Eastern Orthodox liturgy is Western Rite liturgy, such as what you would historically have found in the Church of Denmark (I believe you still can). Also, two Eastern Orthodox churches, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, have Western Rite vicarates which use liturgies based on Anglican, Roman Catholic and other traditional Western liturgies, for example, the ancient Mozarabic Rite of Spain, and the Ambrosian Rite of Milan.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Remember that the earliest Christians were illiterate, with only 5-10% of the general population was able to read. So there were no hymnals, the Scriptures were copied by hand and cost around what someone might make in about a year. Definitely no Powerpoint presentations In fact, my position is that of a Reader, a member of the minor clergy. In early Christianity, I would be entrusted with the scrolls or codex of the letters of the Apostles, while a Deacon or Priest would care for the Gospels. By the 5th century, Readers / Chanters, would be the equivalent of today's choir directors. They had to assemble the various services following a general guideline and teach others how to read as well as to sing. Its not like we could open up a hymnal to page 222 and expect a congregation to sing with a staff scale.

Regular patterns of worship were established from the Jewish temple and synagogue services. Early on, there were a lot of different liturgies, Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, Roman, Gallic, Sarum, etc, depending on what part of the world you were in. However, these could be broken down into general families based on the various litanies or prayers said in the service. Overall though, they were fairly similar in construction. By about the 5th century, these had been developed into fewer sets.


In Orthodoxy, we have 3 liturgies:
St. John Chrysostom (5th century) which is the regular liturgy, about an hour long
St. Basil (4th century), used for special feast days and is a little longer than Chrysostom
St. James (3rd century), now only used on the feast day of St. James in October. It is the longest. I've only been to one and it was about 2 hours.
There is a Presanctified Liturgy used during Lent but it uses bread and wine sanctified on Sunday.

Even today a Jewish service is going to have a lot of similarities with a Christian liturgy (but without the Eucharist). https://images.shulcloud.com/178/uploads/Documents/Shabbat Prayer Book Guide final.pdf

THE SATURDAY MORNING SERVICE
Shabbat morning services are made up of three
sections:
A. Shacharit
The first part of the morning service, on both Shabbat and during regular weekday morning services, includes:
1. Birchot HaShachar (morning blessings)
2. Pesukei D’zimrah (Verses of Praise)
3. The Shema (a declaration of the principal of our faith) and its blessings
4. The Amidah, reflecting the day’s theme of creation and rest, replacing the standard weekday format of the Amidah.

B. Torah
1. The Torah scroll is taken out of the Aron HaKodesh (Holy Ark).
2. It includes the reading of the weekly Parsha – the designated portion of the Torah
for that Shabbat.
3. The Haftorah is read – the designated reading of the Prophets for that Shabbat
that reflects the theme of the Parsha.
4. The new month is blessed (when applicable).
5. The Torah is returned to the Ark.

C. Mussaf:
1. An additional Amidah, which commemorates the added communal offerings for
festive days, like Shabbat, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Chodesh (New Month).
2. Concluding prayer

 

[GreekOrthodox]

FYI, this is what Byzantine music looks like

The Western staff "equivalent" is this:

 

[The Liturgist]

Remember that the earliest Christians were illiterate, with only 5-10% of the general population was able to read. So there were no hymnals, the Scriptures were copied by hand and cost around what someone might make in about a year. Definitely no Powerpoint presentations In fact, my position is that of a Reader, a member of the minor clergy. In early Christianity, I would be entrusted with the scrolls or codex of the letters of the Apostles, while a Deacon or Priest would care for the Gospels. By the 5th century, Readers / Chanters, would be the equivalent of today's choir directors. They had to assemble the various services following a general guideline and teach others how to read as well as to sing. Its not like we could open up a hymnal to page 222 and expect a congregation to sing with a staff scale.

Regular patterns of worship were established from the Jewish temple and synagogue services. Early on, there were a lot of different liturgies, Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, Roman, Gallic, Sarum, etc, depending on what part of the world you were in. However, these could be broken down into general families based on the various litanies or prayers said in the service. Overall though, they were fairly similar in construction. By about the 5th century, these had been developed into fewer sets.


In Orthodoxy, we have 3 liturgies:
St. John Chrysostom (5th century) which is the regular liturgy, about an hour long
St. Basil (4th century), used for special feast days and is a little longer than Chrysostom
St. James (3rd century), now only used on the feast day of St. James in October. It is the longest. I've only been to one and it was about 2 hours.
There is a Presanctified Liturgy used during Lent but it uses bread and wine sanctified on Sunday.

Even today a Jewish service is going to have a lot of similarities with a Christian liturgy (but without the Eucharist). https://images.shulcloud.com/178/uploads/Documents/Shabbat Prayer Book Guide final.pdf

THE SATURDAY MORNING SERVICE
Shabbat morning services are made up of three
sections:
A. Shacharit
The first part of the morning service, on both Shabbat and during regular weekday morning services, includes:
1. Birchot HaShachar (morning blessings)
2. Pesukei D’zimrah (Verses of Praise)
3. The Shema (a declaration of the principal of our faith) and its blessings
4. The Amidah, reflecting the day’s theme of creation and rest, replacing the standard weekday format of the Amidah.

B. Torah
1. The Torah scroll is taken out of the Aron HaKodesh (Holy Ark).
2. It includes the reading of the weekly Parsha – the designated portion of the Torah
for that Shabbat.
3. The Haftorah is read – the designated reading of the Prophets for that Shabbat
that reflects the theme of the Parsha.
4. The new month is blessed (when applicable).
5. The Torah is returned to the Ark.

C. Mussaf:
1. An additional Amidah, which commemorates the added communal offerings for
festive days, like Shabbat, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Chodesh (New Month).
2. Concluding prayer

There are actually two other Eastern Orthodox liturgies, but they are extremely rarely celebrated: the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which has an 1893 recension commissioned by the Patriarch of Alexandria who was then serving, to have the same antiphons and litanies as the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom; the only difference between the 1893 version and those two liturgies being the prayers said by the priest during the three antiphons and the text of the Anaphora (so assuming your parish is a traditional one where the priest does not read all the prayers aloud for the benefit of the congregation, you could actually use it instead of St. John Chrysostom and none of the laity would notice). There is also the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter, which was historically used by some Russian Old Rite Orthodox under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and a copy of a Euchologion containing it, and the St. James and St. Mark liturgies was found at Mount Athos (the Russian Old Rite Orthodox in question lived in Turkey until the 1960s, when they were threatened - they fled the country and the Turks seized the manuscript Liturgikon they had as an antiquity, but members of that community were able to identify the liturgical text found in an Athonite library as containing the same content. The Divine Liturgy of St. Peter is basically a Byzantine Rite synaxis with the Roman Canon as the Anaphora.

These liturgies are not regularly celebrated, unfortunately, but Fr. Aidan Keller uploaded the text for them and other rarities, along with various Western Rite texts, to his now defunct site, archived here: The Liturgical Texts Project - informal collection of Western Orthodox liturgical texts for perusal

By the way, a few places, including the New Skete monastery, celebrate the St. James liturgy more frequently than October 23rd, whereas other places do not celebrate it at all.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

By the way, a few places, including the New Skete monastery, celebrate the St. James liturgy more frequently than October 23rd, whereas other places do not celebrate it at all.

The big thing we are now following is Fr. Seraphim Dedes, a monk from St. Anthony's Monastery, is Digital Chant Stand. Since few psaltis receive formal training anymore, Fr. Seraphim started this project years ago and now GOArch took it over.

GOA Digital Chant Stand

So everything is pretty much automated now.

Publishing costs for an English Menaion or other liturgical books is through the roof for the Greeks. Heck the Priest's Handbook runs $70, so we only have two tattered copies for the chanters. Other major books are not even in print anymore so Digital Chant Stand is a requirement.

 

[The Liturgist]

Remember that the earliest Christians were illiterate, with only 5-10% of the general population was able to read. So there were no hymnals, the Scriptures were copied by hand and cost around what someone might make in about a year. Definitely no Powerpoint presentations In fact, my position is that of a Reader, a member of the minor clergy. In early Christianity, I would be entrusted with the scrolls or codex of the letters of the Apostles, while a Deacon or Priest would care for the Gospels. By the 5th century, Readers / Chanters, would be the equivalent of today's choir directors. They had to assemble the various services following a general guideline and teach others how to read as well as to sing. Its not like we could open up a hymnal to page 222 and expect a congregation to sing with a staff scale.

Regular patterns of worship were established from the Jewish temple and synagogue services. Early on, there were a lot of different liturgies, Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, Roman, Gallic, Sarum, etc, depending on what part of the world you were in. However, these could be broken down into general families based on the various litanies or prayers said in the service. Overall though, they were fairly similar in construction. By about the 5th century, these had been developed into fewer sets.


In Orthodoxy, we have 3 liturgies:
St. John Chrysostom (5th century) which is the regular liturgy, about an hour long
St. Basil (4th century), used for special feast days and is a little longer than Chrysostom
St. James (3rd century), now only used on the feast day of St. James in October. It is the longest. I've only been to one and it was about 2 hours.
There is a Presanctified Liturgy used during Lent but it uses bread and wine sanctified on Sunday.

Even today a Jewish service is going to have a lot of similarities with a Christian liturgy (but without the Eucharist). https://images.shulcloud.com/178/uploads/Documents/Shabbat Prayer Book Guide final.pdf

THE SATURDAY MORNING SERVICE
Shabbat morning services are made up of three
sections:
A. Shacharit
The first part of the morning service, on both Shabbat and during regular weekday morning services, includes:
1. Birchot HaShachar (morning blessings)
2. Pesukei D’zimrah (Verses of Praise)
3. The Shema (a declaration of the principal of our faith) and its blessings
4. The Amidah, reflecting the day’s theme of creation and rest, replacing the standard weekday format of the Amidah.

B. Torah
1. The Torah scroll is taken out of the Aron HaKodesh (Holy Ark).
2. It includes the reading of the weekly Parsha – the designated portion of the Torah
for that Shabbat.
3. The Haftorah is read – the designated reading of the Prophets for that Shabbat
that reflects the theme of the Parsha.
4. The new month is blessed (when applicable).
5. The Torah is returned to the Ark.

C. Mussaf:
1. An additional Amidah, which commemorates the added communal offerings for
festive days, like Shabbat, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Chodesh (New Month).
2. Concluding prayer

Interestingly, some of the Torah and Haftarah pairings are retained in the lectionary of the Assyrian Church of the East, which, during their Eucharistic liturgy, reads from the Torah, then from elsewhere in the Old Testament, and then the Epistle, followed by the Gospel. This pattern of worship is extremely interesting, and their Liturgy of Saints Addai and Mari, along with the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark (which the Coptic Orthodox still use; they call it the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, but it is the same liturgy, but without the Byzantine synaxis from the 1893 recension obviously; it is primarily used in Lent), is considered by scholars to be one of the oldest liturgical texts. (The Anaphora of Hippolytus, which was historically retained in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church from antiquity, before being revived as Eucharistic Prayer 2 in the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Missae of 1969 and subsequently being adopted by several Protestant churches, such as the Episcopalians, in the 1970s, and the Divine Liturgy of St. James, and the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles, which is very similar to, and is believed to be the basis of, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and is one of the many Anaphoras still used in the Syriac Orthodox Church, are also considered to be extremely ancient; those five liturgies, along with a Maronite liturgy which is very similiar to Addai and Mari, the Anaphora of Peter (Sharar) are generally considered to be the oldest in continual use.

There is debate about whether the liturgical instructions in the Didache, as well as the liturgies in the Apostolic Constitutions, were ever actually used in liturgical services.

 

[The Liturgist]

The big thing we are now following is Fr. Seraphim Dedes, a monk from St. Anthony's Monastery, is Digital Chant Stand. Since few psaltis receive formal training anymore, Fr. Seraphim started this project years ago and now GOArch took it over.

GOA Digital Chant Stand

So everything is pretty much automated now.

Publishing costs for an English Menaion or other liturgical books is through the roof for the Greeks. Heck the Priest's Handbook runs $70, so we only have two tattered copies for the chanters. Other major books are not even in print anymore so Digital Chant Stand is a requirement.

Indeed. My Orthodox liturgical library cost a fortune, and I don’t even have the monthly Menaion. There is also a Coptic app which contains the entire Coptic Rite liturgy, with all the propers and special services, and for the traditional Roman Rite, there is this website: Sancta Missa

 

[The Liturgist]

FYI, this is what Byzantine music looks like
View attachment 306219
The Western staff "equivalent" is this:
View attachment 306220

Indeed, Byzantine notation is superior for expressing Byzantine chant. It would break however on some of the beautiful liturgical music of recent origin in the Russian Orthodox Church, for example, the liturgical compositions of Chesnokov, Vedel, and Bortnianksy, as well as more recent Greek Orthodox liturgical music, such as that of Tikey Zes and Michaelides (which I am a big fan of). Ancient Russian Znamenny Chant, which sounds a bit different to Byzantine chant, has its own notation, as does Gregorian Chant and Ambrosian Chant, and the ancient Georgian Orthodox three-voiced polyphonic singing has its own notation as well I believe.

The Coptic and Syriac Orthodox churches historically did not use notation, but memorized their chant, however, the Ethiopian Orthodox church uses what some believe is the oldest system of musical notation in continual use (of course, we have a few surviving pieces of ancient pre-Christian Greek music from Classical Antiquity, which had their own notation, which has been decoded, which Byzantine Chant is I believe very distantly related to, and Syriac and Coptic chant are in turn related to Byzantine chant. Syriac Chant retains the eight modes, although the modes are a bit different than the Byzantine modes, which loosely correspond to the eight modes of Gregorian chant. Coptic chant also has modes, but not eight of them; most are used in the Psalmody, which is the sung part of their very elaborate Divine Office, which nonetheless is very similiar to the Byzantine Rite.

For example, the Copts consecrate the Oil for the Sick and do Holy Unction on the last day in Lent, which is the ancient Eastern Orthodox practice, still normal in ROCOR, and the liturgy is basically identical to the Byzantine Rite service of Holy Unction, differing only in that it lacks the Canon that precedes the Holy Unction service in the Byzantine liturgy. Also, the oil as it is consecrated, has seven wicks inserted; there are multiple ways of doing this, but the way I have seen it done is seven jars of the oil laid out in the shape of a cross, and a wick leading into each jar is lit after each of the seven sets of prayers and lections. I suspect this was once done in the Byzantine Rite, and perhaps still is in some places.

Another parallel: you may have heard that on Mount Athos, on Holy Saturday, in the afternoon, the monks listen as one of them reads (not chanting) the Apocalypse of St. John; this is not considered to be a liturgical context on Mount Athos, but it is the tradition, however, the Copts do the exact same thing on Holy Saturday during their regular worship service.

This is of course the only time in either rite where the Apocalypse is read, but because it is considered extra-liturgical on Mount Athos, technically, of all the ancient lectionaries, only the Coptic lectionary contains it.

 

[Clare73]

I've got a few new questions.
What exactly is meant by Christ's real presence under the eucharist? Is it the same, as in when He says He is there when 2 or 3 is together in his name? The same as in when we pray and communicate with Him? Is there anything special to this exact event?

Indeed there is. . .it is a proclamation of the gospel,
of the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthians 11:26),
that death which, among other things, remitted the sin of those believe in and on him,
made us sons of God, brothers of Jesus Christ and
co-heirs with him in all his own inheritance,
sealed with the promised Holy Spirit guaranteeing that inheritance to us.

This is the Supper's proclamation of the Lord's death until he comes.
This is its focus; i.e., the benefits of the Lord's death.
This is what we give thanks for in the cup of thanksgiving/blessing.

As the Lord's Supper is an actual sacrificial meal, by definition a consuming of his actual sacrificed flesh by death, the focus of his real living presence is elsewhere; i.e., within US, as everywhere testified to in the NT (John 14:20, John 17:23, John 17:26; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 3:17), while his "living presence" in the bread is nowhere testified to in the NT.

Why is that living presence is us not enough, that we must add to it a Biblically-unwarranted living presence elsewhere?

 

[Maniel]

Indeed there is. . .it is a proclamation of the gospel,
of the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthians 11:26),
that death which, among other things, remitted the sin of those believe in and on him,
made us sons of God, brothers of Jesus Christ and
co-heirs with him in all his own inheritance,
sealed with the promised Holy Spirit guaranteeing that inheritance to us.

This is the Supper's proclamation of the Lord's death until he comes.
This is its focus; i.e., the benefits of the Lord's death.
This is what we give thanks for in the cup of thanksgiving/blessing.

As the Lord's Supper is an actual sacrificial meal, by definition an embibing of his actual sacrificed dead flesh, the focus of his real living presence is elsewhere; i.e., within US (John 17:23).

Why is that not enough, that we must add to it a Biblically-unwarranted living presence elsewhere?

I guess I will have to study what his real presence mean.
He says in Matthew "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
But maybe it's not the same as saying he is present, or present in the way He is in the eucharist. So in the eucharist, it's meant that Jesus is present physically, because of the bread and wine that is transformed?
What do you guys think of the Pentecostal belief that you can take communion in any meal you eat and give thanks? Or is that against the verse of the Bible that says to be prepared when doing so? But at the same time they do not have the same focus on his death, but more that He is risen. Thus taking away much of the focus of what happened on the cross.

Remember that the earliest Christians were illiterate, with only 5-10% of the general population was able to read. So there were no hymnals, the Scriptures were copied by hand and cost around what someone might make in about a year. Definitely no Powerpoint presentations In fact, my position is that of a Reader, a member of the minor clergy. In early Christianity, I would be entrusted with the scrolls or codex of the letters of the Apostles, while a Deacon or Priest would care for the Gospels. By the 5th century, Readers / Chanters, would be the equivalent of today's choir directors. They had to assemble the various services following a general guideline and teach others how to read as well as to sing. Its not like we could open up a hymnal to page 222 and expect a congregation to sing with a staff scale.

Regular patterns of worship were established from the Jewish temple and synagogue services. Early on, there were a lot of different liturgies, Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, Roman, Gallic, Sarum, etc, depending on what part of the world you were in. However, these could be broken down into general families based on the various litanies or prayers said in the service. Overall though, they were fairly similar in construction. By about the 5th century, these had been developed into fewer sets.


In Orthodoxy, we have 3 liturgies:
St. John Chrysostom (5th century) which is the regular liturgy, about an hour long
St. Basil (4th century), used for special feast days and is a little longer than Chrysostom
St. James (3rd century), now only used on the feast day of St. James in October. It is the longest. I've only been to one and it was about 2 hours.
There is a Presanctified Liturgy used during Lent but it uses bread and wine sanctified on Sunday.

Even today a Jewish service is going to have a lot of similarities with a Christian liturgy (but without the Eucharist). https://images.shulcloud.com/178/uploads/Documents/Shabbat Prayer Book Guide final.pdf

THE SATURDAY MORNING SERVICE
Shabbat morning services are made up of three
sections:
A. Shacharit
The first part of the morning service, on both Shabbat and during regular weekday morning services, includes:
1. Birchot HaShachar (morning blessings)
2. Pesukei D’zimrah (Verses of Praise)
3. The Shema (a declaration of the principal of our faith) and its blessings
4. The Amidah, reflecting the day’s theme of creation and rest, replacing the standard weekday format of the Amidah.

B. Torah
1. The Torah scroll is taken out of the Aron HaKodesh (Holy Ark).
2. It includes the reading of the weekly Parsha – the designated portion of the Torah
for that Shabbat.
3. The Haftorah is read – the designated reading of the Prophets for that Shabbat
that reflects the theme of the Parsha.
4. The new month is blessed (when applicable).
5. The Torah is returned to the Ark.

C. Mussaf:
1. An additional Amidah, which commemorates the added communal offerings for
festive days, like Shabbat, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Chodesh (New Month).
2. Concluding prayer

Do you think many of the church rituals have evolved is because they were illiterate back then? So today it's more of a tradition? Are there modern orthodox churches that are a bit more relaxed and not as much bound to many ritual practices?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

We're creatures bound by rituals and patterns. God set up a pattern for the Israelites back in the Torah. Sabbath worship, daily rituals, and annual fasts and feasts. We should keep to that general flow of life. I've given church tours for many years now, and one thing that I hear from Jewish guests, "Looks like our synagogue"

Jewish Synagogue

My church

 

[The Liturgist]

Do you think many of the church rituals have evolved is because they were illiterate back then? So today it's more of a tradition? Are there modern orthodox churches that are a bit more relaxed and not as much bound to many ritual practices?

There are liturgical churches which are more “low church” with slightly less ritual. The Lutheran churches generally fall into this category. Also, Roman Catholic and Maronite Catholic churches, except for those Roman Catholic parishes which still use the exquisite beautiful Traditional Latin mass, have simpler liturgy, although even the Traditional Latin Mass in the Extraordinary Form, as it is called, which Pope Benedict XVI reauthorized, only to have his decision, and the preferences of millions of parishioners, trampled on by Pope Francis, is still less ornate than the Byzantine Rite liturgy.

It should be stressed that the Byzantine Rite liturgy used by the Eastern Orthodox church represents the apex of ornate liturgy, and is the most complex liturgical tradition. The video I linked to of the Prothesis is actually something the laity don’t even see normally, because it happens behind the iconostasis before the Divine Liturgy begins. The Western Rite Orthodox churches are based on the Roman Rite or the Anglican liturgy, which is much simpler, so you don’t see the elaborate Proskomide, but you would not see that in an Orthodox church either, since it is done by the priest behind the iconostasis before the service, except, I suppose, in a few Orthodox churches which lack a full iconostasis, if you showed up earlier. In the Coptic Orthodox liturgy, the priest selects from one of seven freshly baked loaves the one with the least blemishes, polishes it, and that is the liturgy of preparation more or less; the laity can see it, and it occurs while a hymn, or rather a litany, Kyrie Eleison, is sung.

Illiteracy does not explain the elaborate nature of the Orthodox liturgy, because of two major facts: the Eastern Roman Empire was more literate than the Western Empire, which collapsed and fell into the dark ages, which impeded theological scholarship for many centuries as the number of literate Christians in Western Europe decreased dramatically, to the point where literacy was almost limited to monks and priests, and the literacy was in Latin primarily; very few remained literate in Greek, and so a large amount of extremely important theological texts previously studied in the West, for example, the writings of Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Athanasius, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Severus of Antioch and St. Maximus the Confessor, to name just a few, became inaccessible. And of the Latin theologians, only larger and wealthier monasteries had comprehensive libraries, so as the Dark Ages progressed, fewer and fewer people were reading anything other than the Vulgate Bible, the Missal, the Breviary, and the writings of St. Augustine. The writings of other vital Latin theologians, many of whom were more competent than St. Augustine, such as Tertullian, St. Isidore of Seville, St. Hilary of Poitiers, St. John Cassian, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Vincent of Lerins, and many others, also became accessible due to a lack of manuscripts.

This I believe contributed to changes in Western theology which resulted in the Great Schism between the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic church.

Now, to return to my previous remarks about preference, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians, Assyrians, Roman Catholics who attend the Tridentine Mass, and many Protestants, such as High Church Anglicans and Lutherans of the Evangelical Catholic tradition, such as the Mission Province reform group in the Church of Sweden (and historically the Church of Sweden in general) and in North America, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, actually like a rich, ornate liturgy. These groups also tend to be among the more well read Christians, because the standard of learning and education among them is remarkably high. This is not to say the people in aliturgical churches are less intelligent, rather, I am just saying, this is not a factor at all in the contemporary situation. What it comes down to is there are Christians who love beautiful, ornate liturgics to glorify God, and there are other Christians who prefer simplicity.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

The laity's portion of the liturgy is fairly standard in the Orthodox church.

Litanies
"Let us pray for X, Y, Z"
<Lord have mercy>

Standard hymns in the Liturgy (Im going off of my head here)
"Through the intercessions"
"Save us Son of God"
"Only begotten Son of God"
Hymn of the church
Cherubic Hymn
"Holy, holy, holy"
"Axion estin"
"We have seen the Light"

Generally I don't need the hymnal for the liturgy. After 20 years I have these hymns memorized in Greek and English.

If you want variety, that's for Vespers and Matins

 

[The Liturgist]

My church
View attachment 306233

Wow, you guys have one of the simplest iconostases I have seen. Still beautiful, though.