Understanding scriptures

[fatboys]

Source please.

Create:

transitive verb

1: to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1(Authorized Version)>


intransitive verb

1: to make or bring into existence something new

Create - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Rufus

That is what I love about you, you pick up on everything. Anyway it was from websters. And bring into existance does not mean something from nothing. When a house is built, it is created from materials already existing.

 

[Rescued One]

That is what I love about you, you pick up on everything. Anyway it was from websters. And bring into existance does not mean something from nothing. When a house is built, it is created from materials already existing.

A house is built with wood, stone, or bricks. The bricks were manmade with materials made by God. The stone was made by God. The wood was made by God. Who made the material that your gods used to make the earth?

 

[Rescued One]

Matter has always existed. If you mean that invisible in the scriptures mean matter then I say that it was not organized. It always was.

Is matter visible or invisible?

Could you give me a reference which teaches God is only one eternal. Since God promises us eternal life if we remain obedient does that mean we did not have a beginning as well?

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psalm 90:2

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psalm 8:4



24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1

Right there in Genesis 1, you see that man was not created until the sixth day, whereas only God was from everlasting to everlasting, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. All of these phrases refer only to God.

 

[ldsfaqs]

Is matter visible or invisible?

It is both..... Even spirit is matter, just more refined.
Matter and Energy (or spirit) is Eternal, and can be either hard or soft, visible or invisible to the eye.

Maybe you are missing the fact that "invisible" does not mean non-existent, that it still means existing?

Right there in Genesis 1, you see that man was not created until the sixth day, whereas only God was from everlasting to everlasting, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. All of these phrases refer only to God.

No one is questioning that "mortal" man, our bodies were created on the 6th day, and that the breath of life (Adams Spirit) was breathed into his body.

But our spirits most certainly DID exist prior to this earth life, that is blatantly clear in the Bible. Heck, even Christ existed in pre-mortal life, that is even more clear, and he was a spirit before being born to the earth in a body. Yet, he was still GOD as one of the Godhead. Yet he still acted on behalf of the Father, in creating this world, in all other actions.

Do you even know what "breath of life" means in the original language? It means our Spirit.
Do you even remember what other scriptures state makes a "soul"? It's the body and spirit together.
Do you remember what the next statement is of Genesis 2:7?

"and the man became a living soul"....

Body and spirit together make a soul. God wasn't creating our spirits when he made our mortal bodies, he was creating a body to house our spirits. He then breathed our spirits into that body, and we were made living souls. If you remember other Biblical scripture, living souls are both spirits and bodies as one.

 

[RufustheRed]

Matter has always existed.

To quote a famous Mormon (fatboys) PROVE IT!

Please show me where the non-secular scholars claim that matter has always existed and while you are at it, please share their evidence with us.

Thanks,

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

Heck, even Christ existed in pre-mortal life, that is even more clear, and he was a spirit before being born to the earth in a body.

Why would anyone say, "Heck, even Christ existed in pre-mortal life...?"

Isn't it a fact that He was from everlasting to everlasting, the Alpha and Omega, the mighty God? It isn't "Heck, anything!"

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Matthew 1:23

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:1

The fact that God, our Creator, is from everlasting to everlasting doesn't make man also from everlasting to everlasting. The Bible doesn't support that notion!

 

[cupid dave]

A house is built with wood, stone, or bricks. The bricks were manmade with materials made by God. The stone was made by God. The wood was made by God. Who made the material that your gods used to make the earth?

God is the very definition of Energy, "The ability to make things move."

Energy exists outside of Space/Time and is some invisible ineffable entity we have yet to explain of even say more about than it comes in seen different States of Being.

It is from raw Energy that the material world is transmuted into being.

On one state of Energy, it is even The Light, or electromagnetic energy that lights the world.

 

[fatboys]

To quote a famous Mormon (fatboys) PROVE IT!

Please show me where the non-secular scholars claim that matter has always existed and while you are at it, please share their evidence with us.

Thanks,

Rufus

Early Church Fathers
The early church fathers seem to believe the platonic idea of eternal matter from which God fashioned the world. Justin Martyr is an example. In The First Apology of Justin he says, "He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, created all things out of unformed matter" (Chapter 10). Justin and Plato in Timaeus both agree that everything came into being through God (Apology I:20, 4). Justin says that Plato took his ideas about God making the world out of unformed matter from Genesis. Justin states, "Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world (Apology I:59). The world was made out of preexistent matter.

The successor of Justin Martyr was Athenagoras who was an Athenian philosopher who became a Christian. His Apology or Embassy was presented to Emperors Aurelius and Commodus about 177 AD. He explicitly believed in the pre-existence of matter (Chadwick 1966, 12, 47).

Clement of Alexandria three times "declares that the world is made 'out of nothing', but in each case the phrase he employs is ek me ontos, not ex ouk ontos; that is to say, it is made not from that which is absolutely non-existent, but from relative non-being or unformed matter" (Chadwick 1966, 46).

 

[RufustheRed]

Early Church Fathers
The early church fathers seem to believe the platonic idea of eternal matter from which God fashioned the world. Justin Martyr is an example. In The First Apology of Justin he says, "He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man&#8217;s sake, created all things out of unformed matter" (Chapter 10).

Thanks for your response, Fatboys. Where did you discover this? Also, may I ask? What do you believe is "unformed matter?"

Justin and Plato in Timaeus both agree that everything came into being through God (Apology I:20, 4).

As do I.

Justin says that Plato took his ideas about God making the world out of unformed matter from Genesis. Justin states, "Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world (Apology I:59). The world was made out of preexistent matter.

I do not equate "unformed matter" with "pre-existent" matter. If fact, even the word that you choose, "pre-existent" in itself is a oxymoron. Nothing, absolutely nothing can exist before anything exists.

The successor of Justin Martyr was Athenagoras who was an Athenian philosopher who became a Christian. His Apology or Embassy was presented to Emperors Aurelius and Commodus about 177 AD. He explicitly believed in the pre-existence of matter (Chadwick 1966, 12, 47).

Sorry, I am unable to confirm your source without further information on Chadwick. Is it Henry Chadwick of which you speak?

Sorry it is very late and I must retire, (for I, like you, am an old geezer ) but I would like to continue with this discussion, if I may.

Have a nice week-end.

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

Clement of Alexandria three times "declares that the world is made 'out of nothing', but in each case the phrase he employs is ek me ontos, not ex ouk ontos; that is to say, it is made not from that which is absolutely non-existent, but from relative non-being or unformed matter" (Chadwick 1966, 46).

I think you've forgotten that Christ created everything regardless of whether it is visible or invisible. If Christ used unformed matter it was unformed matter that He created. When will you understand Colossians 1:16?

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:16

 

[he-man]

I think you've forgotten that Christ created everything regardless of whether it is visible or invisible. If Christ used unformed matter it was unformed matter that He created. When will you understand Colossians 1:16?

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:16

You have forgotten to read the Greek:

Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him.
17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.

 

[ldsfaqs]

I think you've forgotten that Christ created everything regardless of whether it is visible or invisible. If Christ used unformed matter it was unformed matter that He created. When will you understand Colossians 1:16?

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:16

I know it's a "subtle" thing, but there is something you are not seeing in this.
He-man above gives more indication of this with the scripture what it actually in full and correctly states.

Read the scriptures above again. The actual scripture is not at all stating that matter didn't exist in order for creation of things to occur.

Notice how as He-man shows, that the creation was clearly limited in relation to Christ's mission. Remember also, that the creation is clearly limited to our Universe etc., as it relates to this particular sphere. Remember God and the Gods existed prior to the creation..... That in itself makes clear that "things existed" prior to the creation of our universe, i.e. the Heavens and the Earth.

In fact, this is actually a good point. It's completely false that "NOTHING EXISTED", because God existed, Christ existed, Lucifer Existed, and Angels, Hosts of Heaven, etc. haa haa.... Remember the creation occurred AFTER the above events????

This makes clear that the "Creation" was a limited and formative/organizing event, not a creation out of nothing.

 

[Rescued One]

You have forgotten to read the Greek:

Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him.
17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.

Your interpretation is incorrect.

"...all things have been created by Him and for Him." (NASB) Colossians 1:16

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (NASB) John 1:3

Jesus is our mighty God! (see Isaiah 9:6)

Speaking of Greek:

Create, Creation, Creator, Creature - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

 

[Rescued One]

Remember God and the Gods existed prior to the creation.....

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:8

 

[ldsfaqs]

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:8

So what? LDS can use that scripture against you.
You make the false assumption that YOUR interpretation as you have been told is the correct interpretation.

Further, is not the War in Heaven in the Bible?
Didn't it occur before the creation of the Heaven and the earth?
Clearly then, things and beings existed before the Creation, let alone God and Christ themselves.

It is YOU who are preaching another Gospel..... We LDS follow the scriptures IN FULL. You don't.

 

[ldsfaqs]

Your interpretation is incorrect.

"...all things have been created by Him and for Him." (NASB) Colossians 1:16

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (NASB) John 1:3

All of which is something LDS wouldn't disagree with.
What we disagree with is your adding to the Word. The "context" of these statements is the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth. Indeed, everything that was created in that context came from him.

"Things" had a creator.

 

[Rescued One]

All of which is something LDS wouldn't disagree with.
What we disagree with is your adding to the Word. The "context" of these statements is the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth. Indeed, everything that was created in that context came from him.

"Things" had a creator.

Matter is a noun.

 

[fatboys]

Matter is a noun.

it matters not

 

[fatboys]

Matter is a noun.

In a matter of speaking

 

[cupid dave]

"...all things have been created by Him and for Him." (NASB) Colossians 1:16

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (NASB) John 1:3

The verse can only be understood correctly and rationally when we acknowledge it is referring to the concept that Christ re[presents the Truth, the things which actually exist and are real.

Men who imagine a world and society that does not really exist, but is built on lies and falsehoods do not live in the Real World of Truth.

Immanuel Kant explained this as the spirit of mind that corresponds to the things in the external real world.


Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), in the Critique of Pure Reason, distinguished between objects as phenomena, (thoughts we conjure to represent them, purely ideas), which are objects as shaped and grasped by human sensibility and understanding, (we think and image them in our mind),...

... and (Kant distinguished between) objects as a thing as it is in itself, (Reality), or noumena, (distinct from a thing conceived, imaged, the mental representation, as it is in itself, as distinct from the ["real"] thing), which do not appear to us in space and time, but only as mental constructs,...