Understanding scriptures

[fatboys]

Being LDS, I believe in the Bible to be the word of God. With that understanding I also believe that mans influence has also made its way into God's word. Not enough to invalidate, but to truely know what the writer's true intent was, we need divine help. This is why I believe that Joseph Smith prayed to God to know which church he was to join. One church understood a verse one way and another understood it differently. All centered their faith in Christ, and believing him to be their Savior, but not agreeing fundemental doctrines such as baptism. Is it necessary? Some believe it was, and some did not. There are many more such misunderstandings. Anyway we know that the Bible has been copied and copied many many many times. Yet the spirit is alive and well from the words written. Perhaps not as clear and defined. But can change the lives of man if read and lived by.

I love the Bible. Today in Sunday School we are studying 1,2,3 John. What some great writtings. As we were discussing these books, the thought came to me of God's great love for us. That all he does for us is because he loves us. And we show our love to God by how we obey him. I stated that God has always love his children and that when Israel went crazy while Moses was absent, God did not destroy them. He gave Moses the lower law for them to live. God knew they were not ready to show their love by obedience but needed a law that they had to live by to prepare them to live the law by love. They obeyed not because they loved God, but because it meant there would be a physical consequence for disobedience. Many times death was the consequence which is a great motivator for odedience. When Christ came he taught that we love God by following him through obedience. That consequences may not come then but will come in the end. This helps us to develop our love of God. Anyway that is what I believe.

 

[Rescued One]

LDS teaching about the Bible and LDS additional scriptures:

Nephi testified that the Bible once “contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record” and that “after [the words] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:24, 26).
Boyd K. Packer, “Who Is Jesus Christ?,” Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19


Concerning this record, the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated it by the gift and power of God, said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)
http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp

 

[fatboys]

LDS teaching about the Bible and LDS additional scriptures:

Nephi testified that the Bible once “contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record” and that “after [the words] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:24, 26).
Boyd K. Packer, “Who Is Jesus Christ?,” Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19

Sound like something President Packer would teach.

Concerning this record, the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated it by the gift and power of God, said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

The reason being is that the Bible has been copied and copied and translated and translated by learned men who were commissioned to do so by men. For instance the translation of the King James bible took many scholars to do so. They did not always agree on the translation and had to come to a consensus to what the intent of the writer was trying to get across. The Book of Mormon was translated through the gift and power of God through an unlearned young man. Even though God revealed his word through prophets and apostles in ancient times, it has gone through many hands of man. Anytime this happens it is open to corruption. Even one small change makes it less pure and corrupted. This does not dismiss what is not corrupt. Even though the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, it is not pure either. It was translated through and by a man. It is as good as it can be. This is why we need to ask the author to confirm through his spirit that what we read is what he wants us to do.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)
http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp[/QUOTE]

You can not say that all mainstream Christian churches believe the same doctrines as I have explained before. Would you not say that God finds the differing understandings abominable?

 

[Rescued One]

Sound like something President Packer would teach.




The reason being is that the Bible has been copied and copied and translated and translated by learned men who were commissioned to do so by men. For instance the translation of the King James bible took many scholars to do so. They did not always agree on the translation and had to come to a consensus to what the intent of the writer was trying to get across. The Book of Mormon was translated through the gift and power of God through an unlearned young man. Even though God revealed his word through prophets and apostles in ancient times, it has gone through many hands of man. Anytime this happens it is open to corruption. Even one small change makes it less pure and corrupted. This does not dismiss what is not corrupt. Even though the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, it is not pure either. It was translated through and by a man. It is as good as it can be. This is why we need to ask the author to confirm through his spirit that what we read is what he wants us to do.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)
http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp

You can not say that all mainstream Christian churches believe the same doctrines as I have explained before. Would you not say that God finds the differing understandings abominable?

God brings people to Christ. The Holy Spirit leads them into all truth. Those two facts are absolute truths.

Churches don't believe. They teach. If what they teach is abominable, then what of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, and others?

 

[Rescued One]

The Book of Mormon claims that people can stumble and Satan can have great power over them because of many plain and precious things that were removed from the Bible:


24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

Joseph Fielding Smith erroneously taught:
"There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble."

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)

The Bible claims that God's word will stand forever, that we shouldn't add to God's word, and that believers have all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What is lacking if a person is thoroughly furnished unto all good works? What does all mean to LDS?

 

[MormonFriend]

God brings people to Christ. The Holy Spirit leads them into all truth. Those two facts are absolute truths.

Yes, those who choose to obey God will be brought to Christ. All are given the invitation, and those who accept, God will bring. No one is forced, no one is ommitted. It is all based on choice, and that factors in the pre-earth life as well as this life.

Churches don't believe. They teach.

Well, I hope they at least believe what they teach.

If what they teach is abominable, then what of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, and others?

That is so elementary. The same answer applies to all groups who teach and lead people to the purpose of life and what we must do to fulfill that purpose, LDS included. If any mislead, that is an abomination to God.

WBL,

MF

 

[Son of Zadok]

I love and enjoy the Bible as well - but I do not worship the Bible and the Bible is not my G-d or one of my g-ds. I believe that only G-d be considered perfect and thus worshiped and believed to be without flaw.

Son of Zadok

 

[Rescued One]

Yes, those who choose to obey God will be brought to Christ. All are given the invitation, and those who accept, God will bring. No one is forced, no one is ommitted. It is all based on choice, and that factors in the pre-earth life as well as this life.

Well, I hope they at least believe what they teach.

That is so elementary. The same answer applies to all groups who teach and lead people to the purpose of life and what we must do to fulfill that purpose, LDS included. If any mislead, that is an abomination to God.

WBL,

MF

Who will accept the invitation to come to Christ (there was no pre-mortality for God's creation)?

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

If any are in error, God will still lead the elect into all truth. The Bible says so. If Methodist teachings are an abomination to God, so are non-biblical teachings.

 

[Son of Zadok]

God brings people to Christ. The Holy Spirit leads them into all truth. Those two facts are absolute truths.

Churches don't believe. They teach. If what they teach is abominable, then what of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, and others?

Hmmmmmm. What if churches teach that the earth is flat and the center of the universe? What if churches teach that all the universe and life exist only as G-d first created them (without change or evolution)? What if churches teach things that are so absurd that even the most casual but honest student can see the lie - like the earth being young and only 6,000 years old?

If a church cannot teach and support empirical truths that can be checked by anyone with an honest desire to learn - how can they be trusted with “spiritual” things that are not of empirical nature?

Son of Zadok

 

[Rescued One]

I love and enjoy the Bible as well - but I do not worship the Bible and the Bible is not my G-d or one of my g-ds. I believe that only G-d be considered perfect and thus worshiped and believed to be without flaw.

Son of Zadok

I don't worship the Bible. I worship God.

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psalm 119:11

Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
Psalm 119:114

IOW, my hope is based on His word. God is not a liar.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What is lacking if a person is thoroughly furnished unto all good works? What does all mean to LDS?

 

[The Gnostic]

I have a hard time believing in a particular doctrine when the Christian sect that preaches such doctrine does not follow the basics of Christ teachings.I was once LDS but thank God for freeing me from its false prophets and its many false teachings.

 

[Son of Zadok]

I don't worship the Bible. I worship God.

Does your worship of G-d include a belief that as G-d - there is no flaw?

Is not to believe flawless a form or worship? Or is your worship lip service?

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psalm 119:11

Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
Psalm 119:114

IOW, my hope is based on His word. God is not a liar.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hmmmm - all Scripture? or just those scriptures canonized by men - Is there a list somewhere that indcates what is all scripture - or should men be left to make up the list of what is scripture to them?

BTW - Have you noticed that Satan can quote scripture - even unto G-d?

What is lacking if a person is thoroughly furnished unto all good works? What does all mean to LDS?

- What is lacking is covenant through a lawful apointed proctor in the Kingdom of G-d. If you believed the Bible - you would believe this - for even Jesus made his covenant of baptism through John - the apointed proctor in the kingdom of G-d - and John has testored that authority of proctor in our day.

Son of Zadok

 

[Son of Zadok]

I have a hard time believing in a particular doctrine when the Christian sect that preaches such doctrine does not follow the basics of Christ teachings.I was once LDS but thank God for freeing me from its false prophets and its many false teachings.

Where is the community that demonstrates true teachings?

Son of Zadok

 

[Rescued One]

This is a silly argument:

Hmmmm - all Scripture? or just those scriptures canonized by men - Is there a list somewhere that indcates what is all scripture - or should men be left to make up the list of what is scripture to them?

LDS told me to follow the LDS prophets and Priesthood leaders. They ask the congregations in various wards and branches to sustain new leaders. The members of the congregations are humans sustaining new leaders. Joseph Smith, a mere human, claimed to have revelation from God. Humans follow Joseph Smith. Humans claim that Joseph Smith ascended to heaven.

Joseph Smith claimed:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

God could just as easily reveal truth to early Christians as He can to people who live 2,000 years later. If God doesn't lie, if He helps the elect who ask Him for wisdom, and the Lord says "I will guide you," then that person leaves the LDS church because God says it is wrong, the LDS will claim that something obviously went wrong and God isn't at fault, the ex-Mormon is. Men are the ones claiming that the LDS church is true. So men can ask God which books to canonize, but the Catholics and Protestants both got it wrong and only the LDS got it right?

 

[Son of Zadok]

This is a silly argument:

Really - then why not answer it? - Is there any flaws anywhere in the Bible or not?

As you are indicating below - any flaw is a flaw - right? I would assume that if you were directed to do anythng (like stone to death someone) anywhere in the Bible - that is in anyway unacceptable - you would leave the entire Bible just as you did the LDS. Right?

LDS told me to follow the LDS prophets and Priesthood leaders. They ask the congregations in various wards and branches to sustain new leaders. The members of the congregations are humans sustaining new leaders. Joseph Smith, a mere human, claimed to have revelation from God. Humans follow Joseph Smith. Humans claim that Joseph Smith ascended to heaven.

Joseph Smith claimed:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

God could just as easily reveal truth to early Christians as He can to people who live 2,000 years later. If God doesn't lie, if He helps the elect who ask Him for wisdom, and the Lord says "I will guide you," then that person leaves the LDS church because God says it is wrong, the LDS will claim that something obviously went wrong and God isn't at fault, the ex-Mormon is. Men are the ones claiming that the LDS church is true. So men can ask God which books to canonize, but the Catholics and Protestants both got it wrong and only the LDS got it right?

One would think G-d could just as easily reveal truth to early Christians - That is why I wonder about a tradition that taught the earth to be flat and the center of the universe? Or do you believe that traditional Christianity lost touch with any truths?

But - as we have all learned - it is much more fun to blame someone else than it is to give example. In politics as with religion when you do not have a good position of beliefs - best draw attention to the flaws you can conger up in what you do not believe. Heaven forbid anyone find out in detail what you actually believe and stand for. Personally I give more credits to truth to a Hindu that says “I am the example of my beliefs” than some (Bible quoting) Christian finding everything wrong with ever Good Samaritan of every other religion they know about.

Son of Zadok

 

[Son of Zadok]

I have a hard time believing in a particular doctrine when the Christian sect that preaches such doctrine does not follow the basics of Christ teachings.I was once LDS but thank God for freeing me from its false prophets and its many false teachings.

According to the basic teaching of Jesus Christ in the parable of the Good Samaritan - is it better to have true prophets and doctrine - such as the Levitt and Priest or to be kind and compassionate as the Samaritan?

Where can I find Good Samaritans (more worried with being kind and compassionate that arguing about doctrine)?

Son of Zadok

 

[Rescued One]

According to the basic teaching of Jesus Christ in the parable of the Good Samaritan - is it better to have true prophets and doctrine - such as the Levitt and Priest or to be kind and compassionate as the Samaritan?

Where can I find Good Samaritans (more worried with being kind and compassionate that arguing about doctrine)?

Son of Zadok

Being kind and compassionate does not exclude truth. I've heard people say, "Put your money where you mouth is." If you advise others to ignore true doctrine, go thou and do likewise.

I love you and will continue to pray for you.

 

[Son of Zadok]

Being kind and compassionate does not exclude truth. I've heard people say, "Put your money where you mouth is." If you advise others to ignore true doctrine, go thou and do likewise.

I love you and will continue to pray for you.

You are, at least in part, correct - in fact it appears to me that seldom are the compassionate and kind referenced in the scriptures wrong or ever criticized by G-d or his prophets. However the converse is not true. Those that think their doctrines are right (and every one better know it or else) are seldom that compassionate and kind especially those that think teaching right doctrine is more important than charity. Paul in 1Cor 13 expressed that even if one speaks true doctrine with the tongue of angles but has not charity - they are of no more worth than the tinkling symbol. At least a Christian will treat other that believe wrongly as they would be treated.

For some there seems to be an attitude of “Save the lost at any cost.” I believe such is the excuse of terrorist shouting “G-d is with us”. The bitter hatred of an honest and compassionate enemy is much better to endure than all the empty expression of love from an angry and vengeful friend just setting the record straight. Heaven forbid some lessor person of lessor faith should ever be allowed to speak for themselves. That just is not love??? At least love as Christ defines love??? Jesus would never believe a Samaritan or allow them to speak themselves as to what they believe.

Son of Zadok

 

[gort]

Hmmmmmm. What if churches teach that the earth is flat and the center of the universe? What if churches teach that all the universe and life exist only as G-d first created them (without change or evolution)? What if churches teach things that are so absurd that even the most casual but honest student can see the lie - like the earth being young and only 6,000 years old?

If a church cannot teach and support empirical truths that can be checked by anyone with an honest desire to learn - how can they be trusted with “spiritual” things that are not of empirical nature?

Son of Zadok

Let's be more concise. Was it churches who taught about planetary motions or was it certain people in the church who though they were experts and taught planetary motions?

I ask because was'nt it BY who taught that there were Quakers on the sun or was it the moon?

 

[Rescued One]

You are, at least in part, correct - in fact it appears to me that seldom are the compassionate and kind referenced in the scriptures wrong or ever criticized by G-d or his prophets. However the converse is not true. Those that think their doctrines are right (and every one better know it or else) are seldom that compassionate and kind especially those that think teaching right doctrine is more important than charity. Paul in 1Cor 13 expressed that even if one speaks true doctrine with the tongue of angles but has not charity - they are of no more worth than the tinkling symbol. At least a Christian will treat other that believe wrongly as they would be treated.

But unless you are omniscient how can you know that you and I have the same thoughts about how we want to be treated? Do you have compassion on those who consider your church's teachings false? Why do LDS feel such a strong need to attack those who aren't afraid to disagree? To call people unkind, bitter, and full of hatred is a very judgmental thing to do. Don't you agree?

For some there seems to be an attitude of “Save the lost at any cost.”

What in the world are you talking about? I've never heard of any missionary or non-missionary saving anyone. If you don't want non-LDS to teach the difference between correct and false doctrine, then why do LDS try to do that?

I believe such is the excuse of terrorist shouting “G-d is with us”. The bitter hatred of an honest and compassionate enemy is much better to endure than all the empty expression of love from an angry and vengeful friend just setting the record straight. Heaven forbid some lessor person of lessor faith should ever be allowed to speak for themselves.

How on earth can you call one person lessor (lesser is the correct spelling, I believe).

That just is not love??? At least love as Christ defines love??? Jesus would never believe a Samaritan or allow them to speak themselves as to what they believe.

I sincerely ask you to please give us an example of Christ allowing someone to interrupt His teaching to spread false doctrine.

Noone has ever denied you the privilege of telling people what you believe. What you seem to desire is that no one outside the LDS church present anything but positive aspects of the church to which you belong. You, no doubt, invited yourself here. I don't post at any LDS sites.

I'm sorry that you prefer to complain rather than simply explain. I still care about you and pray for you. I pray for you to be at peace and not be so frustrated with CF members. And learn to be kind to those you view as unkind.