Understanding Paul

[BukiRob]

BukiRob, Explain, if you will, what you are talking about when you said 'new covenant or, new testament covenant.' I know the new covenant of Jer.31, and the 'blood of this cup is a new testament in Mat.26:28. I'm confused in what you are saying. Thanks.

I was referring to the covenant that much of the church teaches re: The torah, Sabbath and the Moadim are no longer for the body of Christ

 

[BukiRob]

That is not true.

The entire Word of God Old and New Testament is written on our hearts and minds. That doesn't mean we are under the Law. The Law was specific to the Old Covenant.

What we are under is the two commands Jesus left us with which are harder. It seems believing verse 40 is true is your real issue.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

This may help you What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?

Sorry but the author of that article is wrong about how Pleroo is applied to Matthew 5:17 Then even worse he does not properly cite what Yeshau said
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Yeshua could absolutely not have meant what the author is trying to imply he said. The key to this is in verse 18.... until all is accomplished. Yeshua in verse 17 to avoid any misunderstanding says the Law OR the Prophets.....

We know for certain then that all has not been accomplished as much of the prophecies have yet to be fulfilled. Some will vainly try and argue that Yeshua was only speaking about the prophecies concerning himself. That position is problematic because that is not what he is saying.

Beyond that on the surface his comments seem a bit strange and out of place.... it is because Pleroo means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f
Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- to make full, to complete

In various places of the OT we see G-d rejecting the offerings of Israel and it is precisely because their "hearts were far from me" Is 29:13

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry but the author of that article is wrong about how Pleroo is applied to Matthew 5:17

Well, let's go to the Greek then.

Here's the verse: Matthew 5:17 Interlinear: 'Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;

The word used as fulfill is as follows

4137 [e]
plērōsai
πληρῶσαι .
to fulfill [them]
V-ANA

That is not the word "pleroo" as you indicated above. This word only has four occurences.

πληρῶσαι (plērōsai) — 4 Occurrences

Matthew 3:15 V-ANA
GRK: ἐστὶν ἡμῖν πληρῶσαι πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην
NAS: it is fitting for us to fulfill all
KJV: us to fulfil all
INT: it is to us to fulfill all righteousness

Matthew 5:17 V-ANA
GRK: καταλῦσαι ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι
NAS: to abolish but to fulfill.
KJV: to destroy, but to fulfil.
INT: to abolish but to fulfill [them]

Romans 15:13 V-AOA-3S
GRK: τῆς ἐλπίδος πληρώσαι ὑμᾶς πάσης
NAS: of hope fill you with all
KJV: the God of hope fill you with all
INT: of hope may fill you with all

Colossians 1:25 V-ANA
GRK: εἰς ὑμᾶς πληρῶσαι τὸν λόγον
NAS: on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the [preaching of] the word
KJV: for you, to fulfil the word of God;
INT: toward you to complete the word

 

[BukiRob]

Well, let's go to the Greek then.

Here's the verse: Matthew 5:17 Interlinear: 'Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;

The word used as fulfill is as follows

4137 [e]
plērōsai
πληρῶσαι .
to fulfill [them]
V-ANA

That is not the word "pleroo" as you indicated above.

You clearly do not follow links.

LOL.... You dont have the first clue as to what you are talking about.

Pleroo is the root word.

"to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f
Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- to make full, to complete

You have clearly been provided the definition with this specific verse married to the above definition along with the footnotes

 

[ToBeLoved]

You clearly do not follow links.

LOL.... You dont have the first clue as to what you are talking about.

Pleroo is the root word.

"to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f
Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- to make full, to complete

You have clearly been provided the definition with this specific verse married to the above definition along with the footnotes

And the root word is not the word used.

What you need to do is have the correct word. There can be many words that are slightly different from the root word. This is basic language 101.

You need to be EXACT. There are 88 occurences that are related to the root word, only 4 occurences contain the word I used, which is MORE PERCISE, notice the small [e] at the end of the Strong's Concordance entry, that [e] has a meaning.

4137 [e]
plērōsai
πληρῶσαι .
to fulfill [them]
V-ANA

 

[Steve Petersen]

And the root word is not the word used.

What you need to do is have the correct word. There can be many words that are slightly different from the root word. This is basic language 101.

You need to be EXACT. There are 88 occurences that are related to the root word, only 4 occurences contain the word I used, which is MORE PERCISE, notice the small [e] at the end of the Strong's Concordance entry, that [e] has a meaning.

4137 [e]
plērōsai
πληρῶσαι .
to fulfill [them]
V-ANA

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Fulfill in Matt 5.17.pdf

 

[Steve Petersen]

Midrash
​

Midrash Rabbah - Exodus 30:22

22. Another explanation of NOW THESE ARE THE ORDINANCES. Both the heathen and Israel have judges, and you do not know what difference there is between both. It can be compared to a sick man whose doctor paid him a visit and then said to the family: ' Give him to eat whatever he wants.' When he came to the other, he left word: ' Take care not to let him eat that and that thing.' When he was asked, `The first, thou didst allow to eat whatever he wishes, and the second, thou didst forbid certain things,' his reply was: `The first has no chance of recovering; for this reason did I allow him to eat what he fancies; but the second will yet live and therefore did I command strict caution in his diet.' Similarly the heathen have judges, but neither study the Torah nor fulfil it, as it says, Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and ordinances whereby they should not live (Ezek.XX, 25),1 but with regard to the commandments it says, Which if a man do, he shall live by them (Lev. XVIII, 5).

Exodus Rabbah 40:1

R. Hoshaya said: Anyone who has knowledge but lacks the fear of sin, really has nothing, just as a carpenter who has no tools with him is not a real carpenter; because the bolts which guard learning are the fear of sin, as it says, And the fear of the Lord is its treasure-house (Isa. XXXIII, 6). R. Johanan said: If one knows the Torah but does not fulfil it, it were better for him that he had not been born,

Numbers Rabbah 3:12

He was called Kohath for this reason: You read: If the iron be blunt (Eccl. X, 10), which means, if you perceive that the heavens have become `blunt' and refuse to send down rain, having become like iron- as you read: 'And I will make your heaven as iron'-be assured that it is as a punishment for the non-observance of the Torah; for it is written, And one do not whet the edge (ib.), that is, because they did not fulfil the commandments of the Torah which was given to them by God face to face-as you read, The Lord spoke with you face to face, etc. (Deut. V, 4)

Numbers Rabbah 11:1
The wise shall inherit honour (Prov. III, 35) applies to Israel who are called wise when they fulfil the Torah and the commandments; as it says, Observe therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding, etc. (Deut. IV, 6)

Deuteronomy Rabbah 1:21

The Rabbis say: Moses declared before God: `Master of the Universe, just because the Gentiles have not been commanded to observe the Sabbath, wilt Thou show favour to them if they do observe it?' God replied to him: ' Do you really fear this? By your life, even if they fulfil all the commandments in the Torah, yet will I cause them to fall before you.' Whence this? Because the text says, BEHOLD, I HAVE BEGUN TO DELIVER UP BEFORE THEE.

Deuteronomy Rabbah 7:4

TO OBSERVE TO DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS (XXVIII, 1). R. Simeon b. Halafta said: If one learns the words of the Torah and does not fulfil them, his punishment is more severe than that of him who has not learnt at all.

Deuteronomy Rabbah 11:6

Halachah: When a Jew goes up to read the Law, he is not permitted to commence reading it before he has recited the blessings. First he must recite the blessings and then he reads. And thus Moses, when he had the privilege of receiving the Torah, first recited a blessing, and then he read it. R. Eleazar asked: What was the blessing which Moses recited before reading it? [It was], Blessed art Thou, O Lord, King of the Universe, who hast chosen this law and sanctified it and hast found pleasure in them who fulfil it. He did not say, ' in them that labour at it,' nor, ' in them who meditate in it,' but, ' in them that fulfil it,' that is to say, in them who carry out the words of the Torah.

Numbers Rabbah 10:8

For thus have the Sages said: Keep away from a small sin lest it lead you to a grievous one; run to fulfil a small commandment, for it will lead you to an important one.

Talmud
​

Chagigah 4b

Samuel went and brought Moses with him, Saying to him: Perhaps, Heaven forfend,21 I am summoned to Judgment: arise with me,22 for there is nothing that thou hast written in the Torah, which I did not fulfil.

Arachin 22a

R. Papa said: The paying of a debt is a commandment and [minor] orphans are not obliged to fulfil the commandment.

Mishnah
​

AVOT 4:9

R. JONATHAN SAID: WHOEVER FULFILS THE TORAH OUT OF [A STATE OF] POVERTY, HIS END [WILL BE] TO FULFIL IT OUT OF [A STATE OF] WEALTH; AND WHOEVER DISCARDS THE TORAH OUT OF [A STATE OF] WEALTH, HIS END [WILL BE] TO DISCARD IT OUT OF [A STATE OF] POVERTY.

And the root word is not the word used.

What you need to do is have the correct word. There can be many words that are slightly different from the root word. This is basic language 101.

You need to be EXACT. There are 88 occurences that are related to the root word, only 4 occurences contain the word I used, which is MORE PERCISE, notice the small [e] at the end of the Strong's Concordance entry, that [e] has a meaning.

4137 [e]
plērōsai
πληρῶσαι .
to fulfill [them]
V-ANA

Usage of 'fulfill' in cultural context:

 

[ToBeLoved]

Usage of 'fulfill' in cultural context:

Show me that in scripture. Yeshua literally kept the law perfectly.

Come on now. You know the Law was to be kept perfectly and completely.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In various places of the OT we see G-d rejecting the offerings of Israel and it is precisely because their "hearts were far from me" Is 29:13

Right.

That is why Yeshua greatest Commandment to us is to "Love God with all your hearts, soul and mind" That is not an easy commandment. One needs to TRULY love God above all else. That means putting nothing before Him.

 

[gadar perets]

That is not true.

The entire Word of God Old and New Testament is written on our hearts and minds. That doesn't mean we are under the Law. The Law was specific to the Old Covenant.

I said nothing about us being "under the Law". No NC believer is "under the Law" meaning we are not under its condemnation.

No, the Law was not specific to the OC.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What does that statement mean to you?

What we are under is the two commands Jesus left us with which are harder. It seems believing verse 40 is true is your real issue.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

This may help you What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?

Do you show love to your neighbor by committing adultery with his/her spouse; by stealing from them; by bearing false witness against them; by making them work for you on the 7th day; by murdering them; etc.? No.

Verse 40 is fulfilled when we keep Torah. You can't possibly love God or your neighbor when you sin against them by breaking Torah.

As for the article you linked to, consider his terrible inconsistency which leads to his false interpretation of Yeshua's words. He writes;

He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44).
​

But then he writes;

Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.
​

Did you catch that? He says Jesus fulfilled the prophets by fulfilling only those prophecies regarding himself, but he doesn't apply the same belief to fulfilling the Law. He implies Jesus did not fulfill only those laws regarding himself, but all other laws as well. Why the difference? Because he knows full well that Yeshua did not fulfill all other prophecies. What does that matter, you may think. If he applied equal weights and measures to both the fulfilling of the Law and the fulfilling of the prophets, it would mean either Yeshua fulfilled only laws and prophecies regarding himself or he did not fully fulfill either the Law or the prophets. The latter is true. There are aspects of the Law that have not been fulfilled (for example, Yom Teruah, Sukkot, the blowing of the anti-typical Jubilee trumpet, etc.).

As Yeshua said, "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

The Law and the prophets both remain.

 

[ToBeLoved]

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[gadar perets]

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Excuse my ignorance, but what does .. in your last post mean?