Understanding Islam

andy b · Aug 30, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
simplegifts said:

The only times I have ever lived in Islamic Nations, was as a Christian. During a 30 year period I lived at least part of each year in North Africa or

I will admit all that was before 9/11 and since 9/11 there has been considerable hostilities against non-Muslims in Islamic Nation. But that I believe reflects anger against the West (America especially) and not something from Islam.

No offense lid but thats an understatement when folk are having there heads lopped off and crucified amongst other things....islam is built on violence that why they make such a big deal about muhammeds sword or can you explain different to why a sword is peacful

Click to expand...

SecretNiqabi · Aug 30, 2014

andy b said:
No offense lid but thats an understatement when folk are having there heads lopped off and crucified amongst other things....islam is built on violence that why they make such a big deal about muhammeds sword or can you explain different to why a sword is peacful

Sometimes to maintain peace, the use of force is necessary. It's the reason a police officer carries a gun. It's the reason countries have armies. Muhammad (saw) only resorted to military action or the use of force only until peace had been restored. Any mythology about 'Muhammad's sword' is bid'ah (innovation).

WoodrowX2 · Aug 30, 2014

andy b said:
WoodrowX2 said:

simplegifts said:

The only times I have ever lived in Islamic Nations, was as a Christian. During a 30 year period I lived at least part of each year in North Africa or

I will admit all that was before 9/11 and since 9/11 there has been considerable hostilities against non-Muslims in Islamic Nation. But that I believe reflects anger against the West (America especially) and not something from Islam.

No offense lid but thats an understatement when folk are having there heads lopped off and crucified amongst other things....islam is built on violence that why they make such a big deal about muhammeds sword or can you explain different to why a sword is peacful

Click to expand...

Yes people are being Crucified and having their heads lopped off. Most of us Muslims are as appalled about it just as Much as non-Muslims. Muslims are getting crucified and having their heads lopped off by the same people. They are also our enemy even if they are calling them self Muslim

Click to expand...

Zeek · Aug 30, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
Yes people are being Crucified and having their heads lopped off. Most of us Muslims are as appalled about it just as Much as non-Muslims. Muslims are getting crucified and having their heads lopped off by the same people. They are also our enemy even if they are calling them self Muslim

I appreciate that...but can't you also see that the root of the problem which ever way you try to cut it is 'Islam', and when you see the various sects of Islam dominating the violence, killing each other, killing others and trying to re-establish the Caliphate...it doesn't add up, because the voices calling for Jihad may be fewer, but they are far stronger than those who say they oppose what they stand for.

Zeek · Aug 30, 2014

SecretNiqabi said:
Sometimes to maintain peace, the use of force is necessary. It's the reason a police officer carries a gun. It's the reason countries have armies. Muhammad (saw) only resorted to military action or the use of force only until peace had been restored. Any mythology about 'Muhammad's sword' is bid'ah (innovation).

Your summary of Mohammed and his motives doesn't tie in with historical records and the certain knowledge that Mohammed ordered many people to be murdered for one thing or another, and wiped out the men over 14 years old in an entire tribe after they had surrendered (approx 7-900).

I realize that embracing or being bought up with this religious ideology creates 'blind-spots', especially when infidels like me challenge you...but just a quick look at various sites on the net should at least alert you to the fact that there is a credibility gap between what you have learnt and been taught and the actual facts.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 30, 2014

Zeek said:
I appreciate that...but can't you also see that the root of the problem which ever way you try to cut it is 'Islam', and when you see the various sects of Islam dominating the violence, killing each other, killing others and trying to re-establish the Caliphate...it doesn't add up, because the voices calling for Jihad may be fewer, but they are far stronger than those who say they oppose what they stand for.

The fact some people that some people that commit atrocities call them self Muslim, should not be a reason to Judge Islam. Anyone can call them self Muslim. there are no formalities of becoming Muslim. No baptism, joining ritual etc. All people who call them self Muslim are considered to be such. Although we may state their actions do not agree with what most of us consider to be following Islam.

There are only a few times we can say a person is not a Muslim such as if they say they are not or if they consistently refuse to follow any of the 5 Pillars without reason.

Zeek · Aug 31, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
The fact some people that some people that commit atrocities call them self Muslim, should not be a reason to Judge Islam. Anyone can call them self Muslim. there are no formalities of becoming Muslim. No baptism, joining ritual etc. All people who call them self Muslim are considered to be such. Although we may state their actions do not agree with what most of us consider to be following Islam.

There are only a few times we can say a person is not a Muslim such as if they say they are not or if they consistently refuse to follow any of the 5 Pillars without reason.

Every person who is awake and has their eyes open is forced to make a judgment call on Islam as a whole and the effects of Islam seen through the backdrop of history and in our present age....and forgive me if all the words from the moderate advocates of this peaceful religion don't convince me or if the evidence all around me says otherwise.

You cannot fool all the people all the time.

pyramid33 · Aug 31, 2014

Any muslim that reject's true Christian's, has rejected God.

That goes for all.

pyramid33 · Aug 31, 2014

72 virgin's is a false doctrine invented by lust against God.

Love for one another is the true gospel. God love's all of us and died in the flesh to save us from such hatred of hating one another.

andy b · Aug 31, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
andy b said:

WoodrowX2 said:

Yes people are being Crucified and having their heads lopped off. Most of us Muslims are as appalled about it just as Much as non-Muslims. Muslims are getting crucified and having their heads lopped off by the same people. They are also our enemy even if they are calling them self Muslim

Click to expand...

I never specified a religion i just said people .......thats half the problem when trying to discuss anything with Muslims at some point they always say well its happening to Muslims as well as though that makes it okay its the same rational as to why they bomb places there answer is always well muslims are being bombed....

Click to expand...

simplegifts · Aug 31, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
The fact some people that some people that commit atrocities call them self Muslim, should not be a reason to Judge Islam. Anyone can call them self Muslim. there are no formalities of becoming Muslim. No baptism, joining ritual etc. All people who call them self Muslim are considered to be such. Although we may state their actions do not agree with what most of us consider to be following Islam.

There are only a few times we can say a person is not a Muslim such as if they say they are not or if they consistently refuse to follow any of the 5 Pillars without reason.

How can you say that when the Quran and hadith are filled with hideous and horrific commands to fight subdue and kill non-Muslims? How do we know you have the correct understanding?

Terrorists being trained to hit West

A former University of Ottawa business student named John Maguire is under RCMP investigation after leaving for Syria last year. In his online posts, the recent Muslim convert called Canada "evil" and said Christians had to convert or "face the sword."

There have been many good, kind and honest Christians who try to not claim violent Christians. The problem being - if a person believes Christ is their Saviour, the Word of God incarnate; that person is a Christian - a lousy one who is not following Christ's teachings.

The many good, kind and honest Muslims CAN NOT say the same thing. There are 2 Islams, 2 types of Quranic verses and hadith - 1 political and violent and 1 that is closer to the teachings of Christ.

All they can truthfully say is that the political and violent Muslim is choosing to follow the political and violent verses and ignore the others.

simplegifts · Aug 31, 2014

Israel Hayom | Choosing between freedom and Islamism

Choosing between freedom and Islamism
‎"The book you are holding in your hand is a book of a new era marked for a more beautiful ‎world. It is obvious that a more beautiful world cannot be achieved without a freer world. ‎And to achieve a freer world, taboos must be broken. All kinds of chains that bind freedoms ‎must be broken."‎

This excerpt is from the preface of the first edition of the book "This is Religion," by Turan ‎Dursun.‎

Dursun's father was of Turkish descent, and his mother, of Kurdish descent. Born in Turkey ‎in 1934, he was a former mufti and imam and an open critic of Islam who fought for a freer ‎and more humane world despite pressures from the state, the public, and even his own ‎father, whose dream was to see him become a devoted cleric.‎

Dursun was a prestigious mufti in the cities where he worked. His ‎progressiveness and hard work were often covered by the national media, and he sometimes ‎wrote columns for national newspapers, as well. He was frequently invited to official state ‎ceremonies and was respected by the public. He regularly visited villages to observe their ‎problems, and tried to offer solutions.‎

Because Dursun received his education in madrassas (Muslim theological schools) and knew Arabic ‎well, he had a comprehensive knowledge of Islam's original source documents -- the Quran, ‎hadith, biographies and histories. And he had something of crucial importance that most ‎Muslim scholars lack: a critical mind.‎

The Islamic religious texts did not satisfy the depths of his mind. He had an incredible passion ‎for learning. Aside from his native languages, Turkish and Kurdish, he learned Arabic, ‎Circassian, and some French. He had a strong interest in Greek philosophy, as well, and read ‎Aristotle's works when he was just 12. ‎

‎"Knowledge is accumulated in your mind to a point, and then a spark is emitted. But if [your ‎religion or ideology] is so deeply rooted in your culture and conscious, it is hard to certainly ‎face up to and distance yourself from it. I always had a nature that revolted against the ‎concept of God and my disengagement from Islam took place in an evolutionary phase. I had ‎always argued with God. Then I repented. I thought, for example, that if the Quran is the word ‎of God, then why does it permit slavery? Why does it tell some people that it is OK if they are ‎slaves? I thought that if [the Quran's author] was really Allah, he should have abolished ‎slavery and that he should not have declared some people slaves and others free. But then I ‎immediately abjured. I had always been in a state of rebellion since my childhood," Dursun ‎said in an interview.‎

But his main estrangement from Islam happened when he compared the Quran with other ‎religious books. ‎

‎"Then I realized how Muhammad transferred some of the writings of the Torah and Bible to ‎the Quran. I was so frustrated and angry. I could not live my childhood and youth properly ‎because of him. So many people can't live properly because of him. So many people are ‎sufferers of his disasters. So many people know what's right as wrong and what's wrong as ‎right because they think the darkness that he chose exists. Human emotions and human ‎creations haven't progressed in many ways because of him. I have found no disease, neither ‎cancer nor AIDS, and no disaster more horrid than the effects of that religion. And at that ‎moment, I decided to start a fight," Dursun said.‎

Dursun also gave up his job as a mufti, which he carried out for 14 years, to dedicate himself ‎better to his cause.‎

‎"I gave up my job to be able to fight. I was on top of my career. I was not an ordinary mufti. ‎People knew and respected me. But I had to leave that job. Because I thought that if I was to ‎fight, I could not do that with my current job because that would not be honest. I have always ‎been consistent. I never want a difference between what I think and what I do."‎

Dursun said that he first lost his faith in Muhammad, then he deeply thought about it, reading ‎extensively in anthropology, and in a few years time he lost his faith in God, as well. ‎

With these changes, Dursun's father and brothers were gradually estranged from him.‎

Then he started writing. His first problem was that no media outlet or publishing house ‎wanted to publish his articles. ‎

In the preface to "This is Religion -- Part 1," he explained that period: "I tried so hard to ‎publish these articles. I rang many bells. My attempts continued for months, if not years. They ‎all turned me down. [These articles] daunted even people known as 'progressives' or ‎‎'intellectuals.' Even when my most moderate articles were presented to them, some of them ‎said, 'They can stone us to death if we publish them.' Some of them were even scared of ‎being bombed, let alone being stoned. Some of them responded with the same rhetoric of ‎tactician politicians: 'We respect the religion. We do not support offending religious feelings.'‎

‎"Every time I was turned down, I thought: If they can't risk offending feelings, how can ‎struggle against darkness be possible? Can new steps in the field of civilization be taken ‎without offending feelings? How can changes that aim to reach a more beautiful, civilized, ‎and humane world take place without offending feelings? What novelty or reform has been ‎introduced without offending feelings? Have human beings not offended religious feelings as ‎they have changed themselves and the nature? I always thought about these questions. But ‎still found no entrance to our 'liberal' (!) printed press. ‎

‎"So before our country and the world, I would like to document this (situation) and blame the ‎‎'intellectuals' who function as stern wardens that are not very different from the sovereigns of ‎the oppressive regimes that they accuse and as taps that prevent water required for liberation ‎from flowing," Dursun said.‎

Finally, Dursun was able to find a magazine to publish his articles and then a publishing house ‎to print his books.‎

Among the many subjects he wrote about were violence in Islam, Shariah law, the status of ‎women in Islam, the private life of Muhammad, contradictions in the Quran, "Satanic verses" ‎and the vengefulness of Islamists. He also focused on what he called "the unscientific and ‎irrational matters in the Quran." He wrote countless books and articles in the 1980s.‎

His son Abit Dursun said that every single article his father wrote fell like a bombshell. "My ‎father heartily dealt with taboos that no one in Turkey had ever dared discuss," he said.‎

Thus, Turan Dursun often received death threats and was exposed to verbal attacks. ‎

‎"Even a fatwa requiring my father's execution was proclaimed. Then the magazine for which ‎he wrote made a call to all Islamic scholars to join a debate program on TV with my father. ‎But none of them volunteered because they knew that my father was one of the most ‎outstanding scholars of Islam, not only in Turkey but throughout the world. And my father ‎was fearless," said Abit Dursun.‎

Turan Dursun's knowledge was great and so was his bravery. But he did not write to harm, ‎coerce, destroy or kill anyone. He had a cause, which he believed was to enlighten and liberate ‎people to create a better world, where freedom and humanity would prevail. And his only ‎weapon was the eloquence of his pen. ‎

But his opponents did not share the same human values. As if to prove Dursun right about the ‎violence of Islamic teachings, they did not confine themselves to verbal or psychological ‎attacks. ‎

At age 56, Dursun was brutally assassinated by two gunmen in front of his house in ‎Istanbul on September 4, 1990. ‎

After Dursun's murder, a book titled "The Holy Terror of Hezbollah" was found on his bed. ‎Family members said that the book did not belong to Dursun and was left on his bed as a ‎message by the people who entered their house. ‎

After Dursun was murdered, plainclothes policemen took away many of his works, which he ‎had been in the process of preparing, including the 2,000 pages of his Encyclopedia of the ‎Quran, many of his manuscripts, articles, letters and the fifth edition of his latest book.‎

‎"The police arrived in our house 45 minutes later. The plainclothes policemen who had arrived ‎much earlier ransacked the whole house. As they left after seizing my father's works, the ‎uniformed policemen came. … We sought help from the prosecutor's office later, but were not ‎able to get those works back," his son said.‎

Dursun was opposed by the police and the state, and was completely vulnerable. But he was ‎also abandoned by many of Turkey's intellectuals. Not everyone had his courageous heart and ‎his free mind, after all.‎

Abit Dursun delivered a speech in his father's funeral: "Turan Dursun always said 'I am not ‎scared of darkness. I am scared of being scared. Because one who is scared either dreads or ‎becomes aggressive. Those who killed my father viciously fired bullets at his back, without ‎even daring to look him in the eye," he said.‎

After Dursun's assassination, his books sold tens of thousands of copies in Turkey. His ‎supporters have called him a "warrior of enlightenment" -- one of the most well-deserved titles ‎in history.‎

Dursun was killed years ago, but the silence and indifference of the West -- the free world -- ‎in the face of Islamism remains deafening.‎

The term "Islamphobia" has been invented to muzzle the critics of Islam so that Islamists' ‎feelings will not be offended. Even genuine supporters of this term must be well aware of the ‎fact that the slightest, mildest criticism of Islam can cause violent reactions from "peaceful" ‎Islamists.‎

That is why Alan Dershowitz was so right when he said, "The threat or fear of violence should ‎not become an excuse or justification for restricting freedom of speech." ‎

Why do we fear a violent reaction from Muslims if we make any substantial critique of Islam? ‎Is Islam not a religion of peace, as many claim it to be?‎

‎"Islamophobia" apologists should also answer these questions: What thoughts are included ‎and guaranteed within the scope of freedom of expression? Which thoughts are free and ‎which are banned? To what extent can one criticize Islam and about what subjects must one be ‎silent? Can we get a list of do's and don't's, and if so, how would it contribute to human ‎progress?‎

The suppression of criticism of Islam and Islamism aims to restrict the capacity of the human ‎mind. But we are no longer living in the seventh century. In the 21st century, one may not ‎demand silence from free thinkers.‎

WoodrowX2 · Aug 31, 2014

simplegifts said:
How can you say that when the Quran and hadith are filled with hideous and horrific commands to fight subdue and kill non-Muslims? How do we know you have the correct understanding?

Terrorists being trained to hit West

A former University of Ottawa business student named John Maguire is under RCMP investigation after leaving for Syria last year. In his online posts, the recent Muslim convert called Canada "evil" and said Christians had to convert or "face the sword."

There have been many good, kind and honest Christians who try to not claim violent Christians. The problem being - if a person believes Christ is their Saviour, the Word of God incarnate; that person is a Christian - a lousy one who is not following Christ's teachings.

The many good, kind and honest Muslims CAN NOT say the same thing. There are 2 Islams, 2 types of Quranic verses and hadith - 1 political and violent and 1 that is closer to the teachings of Christ.

All they can truthfully say is that the political and violent Muslim is choosing to follow the political and violent verses and ignore the others.

Just as there are people doing violence and climing they are following Christianity and the Bible such as

Joseph Kony of the LRA

He claims that his Lord's Resistance Army movement has been fighting to install a government in Uganda based on the Biblical 10 Commandments.

SOURCE

The Christian Pastors burning alleged witches alive in Africa

NLFT

The National Liberation Front of Tripura (or NLFT) is a Tripuri nationalist Christian militant organization based in Tripura, India.[2][3][4][5] The NLFT seeks to secede from India and establish an independent Tripuri state, and has actively participated in the Tripura Rebellion. The NLFT manifesto says that they want to expand what they describe as the kingdom of God and Jesus Christ in Tripura.[6]

The NLFT is currently proscribed as a terrorist organization in India.[7][8]

SOURCE

Lot of people are aware about the Islamic Terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir, but how many are aware about the Christian Terrorism in the North-East India? With the support of Christian Missionaries, terrorist organisations like NLFT and NSCN are spreading terror in parts of North-East India to convert the whole of North-East states to Christianity at gunpoint. NSCN has already succeeded in Nagaland to convert masses to Christianity and asking "Nagaland for Christ" and still fighting for a greater Nagaland called Nagalim, with the adjoining districts of other Indian states. NLFT is in process of having a repeat of NSCN in Tripura.

SOURCE

Because some people use their scriptures to justify terrorism, does not mean the religion teaches terrorism.

Just as the 2 examples I posted do not represent the teachings of Chistianity, The Muslim terrorists do not represent the teachings of Islam

simplegifts · Aug 31, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
Just as there are people doing violence and climing they are following Christianity and the Bible such as

Joseph Kony of the LRA

SOURCE

The Christian Pastors burning alleged witches alive in Africa

NLFT

SOURCE

SOURCE

Because some people use their scriptures to justify terrorism, does not mean the religion teaches terrorism.

Just as the 2 examples I posted do not represent the teachings of Chistianity, The Muslim terrorists do not represent the teachings of Islam

Big difference with all your examples - not one can point to a passage where Jesus commands a follower to harm anyone.

Mohammad orders harm to all non-Muslims through hadith and his Quran. Open your heart and eyes when you read the Quran and hadith.

SecretNiqabi · Aug 31, 2014

simplegifts said:
Big difference with all your examples - not one can point to a passage where Jesus commands a follower to harm anyone.

Mohammad orders harm to all non-Muslims through hadith and his Quran. Open your heart and eyes when you read the Quran and hadith.

It must be remembered that the Qur'an isn't like the Bible in that it wasn't an account written after the fact based on the accounts of others. Rather, it was direct revelation from Allah in response to certain situations and issues which needed addressing within the Muslim community. In some cases, this involved the Muslims taking up arms against the pagan Quraysh and their allies, who were trying to exterminate the Muslims. Many of the verses which are often taken to be incitements for Muslims to kill non-Muslims are infact historical commands for the Muslims to fight against the Quraysh in specific miltary actions, such as the Battle of the Trench or Badr. Context is key to the Qur'an!

gord44 · Aug 31, 2014

simplegifts said:
Open your heart and eyes when you read the Quran.

Already did. then I reverted to Islam. Hamdullah.

simplegifts · Aug 31, 2014

SecretNiqabi said:
It must be remembered that the Qur'an isn't like the Bible in that it wasn't an account written after the fact based on the accounts of others. Rather, it was direct revelation from Allah in response to certain situations and issues which needed addressing within the Muslim community. In some cases, this involved the Muslims taking up arms against the pagan Quraysh and their allies, who were trying to exterminate the Muslims. Many of the verses which are often taken to be incitements for Muslims to kill non-Muslims are infact historical commands for the Muslims to fight against the Quraysh in specific miltary actions, such as the Battle of the Trench or Badr. Context is key to the Qur'an!

The Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the Bible.

When Mohammad was spoken to he thought it was evil. The seal of a prophet in Islam - a mole!! LOL!! Sorry these are the funniest things I have ever heard!! Then there is Khadija's test.

To think that some Muslims are killing and raping people, beheading and attacking, destroying historic artifacts, holding sex slaves, etc.

There were companions who copied down the verses as Mohammad spoke them. Uthman ordered all the Quran collected. He compiled them by length because he did not know the how else to do so. Uthman then burned the originals. You have no originals and someone purposely destroyed the originals. Pretty fishy!!

Clarification - Allah speaks to Gabriel who speaks to Mohammad who sometimes remembers and sometimes needs prompting from companions who then write down what Mohammad and only Mohammad the self proclaimed prophet says Gabriel said.

Compare that to - Jesus, God's Word who has a multitude of witnesses to his words and deeds, miracles. The Holy Spirit guides the men to record what they saw and heard.

CaDan · Aug 31, 2014

simplegifts said:
Big difference with all your examples - not one can point to a passage where Jesus commands a follower to harm anyone.

Mohammad orders harm to all non-Muslims through hadith and his Quran. Open your heart and eyes when you read the Quran and hadith.

Citation please.

CaDan · Aug 31, 2014

simplegifts said:
The Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the Bible.

When Mohammad was spoken to he thought it was evil. The seal of a prophet in Islam - a mole!! LOL!! Sorry these are the funniest things I have ever heard!! Then there is Khadija's test.

To think that some Muslims are killing and raping people, beheading and attacking, destroying historic artifacts, holding sex slaves, etc.

There were companions who copied down the verses as Mohammad spoke them. Uthman ordered all the Quran collected. He compiled them by length because he did not know the how else to do so. Uthman then burned the originals. You have no originals and someone purposely destroyed the originals. Pretty fishy!!

Clarification - Allah speaks to Gabriel who speaks to Mohammad who sometimes remembers and sometimes needs prompting from companions who then write down what Mohammad and only Mohammad the self proclaimed prophet says Gabriel said.

Compare that to - Jesus, God's Word who has a multitude of witnesses to his words and deeds, miracles. The Holy Spirit guides the men to record what they saw and heard.

And the textual evidence of the Bible is kind of a mess, too. Yet we are able to derive the Faith from it.

Sister, I implore you. Cease your mocking and try to be a witness to Good News.

dcalling · Aug 31, 2014

CaDan said:
Citation please.

see here The Quran's Verses of Violence
It is actually a site prompt Islam, so they have the answers already.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

The problem with the explanation is, Mohammad sets an example in Banu Qurayza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, where after they surrender, all their males who "is subjected to razors" are killed and women/children are enslaved. That sounds just way to familiar with happens in Iraq.

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