Understanding Islam

Senator Cheese · Aug 23, 2014

Thank you for your information, WoR. Are kufar allowed to visit a mosque, by the way? I know the Al Aqsa mosque was closed for tourism as a political measure - but in general, could a visitor come to a mosque? Do you guys also have outreach programs for interfaith dialogue?

Oh, and are you not answering the other questions of my post because you do not know the answers, or because you do not want to answer them? I was hoping someone would shed light into this.

ValleyGal · Aug 23, 2014

First, I appreciate those here who are Muslim who are helping us to understand a little about their faith and issues surrounding it. I find it very helpful to talk on this level.

Second, I wonder how most Muslims (non-radicals) feel about other religions. Does it make a difference whether those other religions are on foreign soil to what is traditionally known as Muslim territory (in the east)? The Muslims in the nearby cities to me seem fairly peaceable, although they pretty much keep to themselves. But we live and worship in the same communities. But it seems so much more volatile in the east.

WordsOfRepentance · Aug 23, 2014

Senator Cheese said:
Thank you for your information, WoR. Are kufar allowed to visit a mosque, by the way? I know the Al Aqsa mosque was closed for tourism as a political measure - but in general, could a visitor come to a mosque? Do you guys also have outreach programs for interfaith dialogue?

Oh, and are you not answering the other questions of my post because you do not know the answers, or because you do not want to answer them? I was hoping someone would shed light into this.

The Masjidul-Harem in Mecca is closed to non-Muslims. Its the holiest place in Islam and yes its closed to non-Muslims.

Other mosques, in general, are open to all as far as I know provided they clothe themselves in an accepted manner.

Outreach programs for interfaith dialogue? Hmmm I don't know what that means but interfaith dialogue - well it really depends on the location. How Muslims reach out to other communities will be very different in the Indian Subcontinent than in the US. We have the concept of Dawah which is to spread the message, clear misconceptions and build bridges between the faiths, but compared to Christian evangelical movements - well you really can't compare. We do almost nothing to spread Islam in a large level.

Well I didn't answer those question because perhaps the others would answer them better.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 23, 2014

Senator Cheese said:
What's the overall sentiment towards an Islamic Caliphate and towards ISIS in particular among young (and old) Muslims?

Speaking for myself. I am looking forward to the next Caliphate, for the very same Reason Christians are looking for it. the Next and final caliphate will occur with the return of Jesus(as). Like Christians Muslims are also awaiting for the Return of Jesus(as). Many, like myself, believe that will bring in the Next Caliphate

Senator Cheese said:
Senator Cheese said:

I watched a program on the BBC the other day and was surpised to see some Western Islamic proponents arguing in favor of the establishment of a caliphate that imposes the Sharia on its members, including the death penalty for a wide array of offenses (such as homosexuality, adultery, etc.).

Click to expand...

There is no way it can be a true Caliphate, without involving the ummah (all of the world's Muslems)

Sadly people, including some Muslims, are unaware as to what Sharia actually is. It has been many Centuries since any nation followed actual Sharia, particularly in Criminal law. The Civil laws are pretty well followed by all Muslims.

What the media calls Sharia has very little resemblance to Sharia. To be Sharia One of the 4 Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence must be followed, fully. Any one of the Schools but only one and it must be followed fully not just picking out the parts a ruler likes.

Senator Cheese said:

As I understand, the Sharia is considered a part of what you believe is a godly revelation - would you, as Muslims, advocate such a system being implemented in Western countries if you could decide? What about other Muslims in your mosque?

Click to expand...

For the First Generation that was true. Today true Sharia will be the following of one of the 4 Madhabs (Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence) Maliki, Shafi, Hambali or Hanafi.

I am more familiar Hanafi and will address only that. There is a set of Authority for each school in determining laws.

Development of the Hanafi School of law

Hanafi School of law is named after Numan bin Thabit ibn-Zuta ibn-Marzuban (699-767 CE) popularly known as Imam Abu Hanifa.

While the Hanafi School bases the laws upon the Qur'an and Sunnah, that is not the only sources used

The Quran and Sunnah however did not offer the solution to every specific case that ever came before the community. The jurists in that case had recourse to such legal methods as Ijma (consensus) and Qiyas (analogical deduction). Ijma refers to the process of obtaining consensus regarding a particular legal problem among the Companions, their successors or all the mujtahids of any one of the future generations. A Hanafi scholar Shashi, writing in the eighth century CE, considers the consensus among few mujtahids accompanied by silence or absence of objection by all other Mujtahids a valid Ijma. The concept of Qiyas is of analogical deduction. If no direct solution is found regarding a particular case in Quran or Sunnah, the jurist identifies similar cases in these sources and if valid analogy is established between the two cases, the solution of the first case can be applied to the other. An example is that of permissibility of drinking date wine. The jurist finds out that the grape wine is prohibited because of its intoxicating affect. Since the harmful affect is also present in the date wine, it will also be prohibited as well. Apart from Ijma and Qiyas, Hanafi School introduced the concept of Istihsan (Juristic preference) as Maliki madhab introduced the method of istislah/maslah (public interest) to solve legal problem

ForMore information on Sharia see HERE

Senator Cheese said:

Oh, and that's another question: what do you guys actually do in a mosque? I realize that many of the prayers are ultimately carried out in the privacy of your own homes or at work - so what are the mosques for? Do you have lectures? Do you meet up and discuss current events?

Click to expand...

A Mosque that is only a Mosque is basically a place to keep out of the rain when praying. A non-Muslim would probably find it some what boring. Just prayers, No sermon, simple pure worship

A Picture is worth a thousand words here is the Fajr prayer all 4 minutes of it.

This is what takes place in a Mosque 5 times daily. For most Muslims that is the only time they are in the Mosque.

Visitors are welcome in virtually every Mosque. If you contact the Mosque in advance they will provide a chair for you to sit in. You may notice there are no pews or furniture in a Mosque. It is to be an empty room with no distractions. the purpose is worship not socialization

[youyube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuk6HgOH9yQ[/youtube]

WoodrowX2 · Aug 23, 2014

ValleyGal said:
First, I appreciate those here who are Muslim who are helping us to understand a little about their faith and issues surrounding it. I find it very helpful to talk on this level.

Second, I wonder how most Muslims (non-radicals) feel about other religions. Does it make a difference whether those other religions are on foreign soil to what is traditionally known as Muslim territory (in the east)? The Muslims in the nearby cities to me seem fairly peaceable, although they pretty much keep to themselves. But we live and worship in the same communities. But it seems so much more volatile in the east.

The situation in the Mideast was not always so volatile. About 40 years ago I lived in the Mideast and North Africa as a Christian. I was treated no different from anyone and it was quite safe to go any where I desired to go. I had many Muslim friends and often was invited to their homes for meals. Shared a lot of enjoyable times with them.

Since 9/11 all get out has busted loose, there is extreme anger against all westerners and to many Mid Easterners Christianity represents the Western world.

Muslims typically do not proselytize. I never once had a Muslim ask me to convert or make any suggestion I should. I reverted 9 years ago, on my own and long after I had any contact with Muslims. I had not even seen a Muslim for nearly 20 years and was living in a rural area of Texas far from any Muslims.

Oddly, I still do not live near any Muslims. My wife and myself are the only Muslims in the entire county we live in. although we do have Muslims friends only 100 miles away and do visit them about once a week.

Senator Cheese · Aug 23, 2014

Thank you again for your informative posts, Woodrow. Unfortunately, I have more questions. If these are becoming too much a nuisance, then feel free to decline to comment or tell me.

WoodrowX2 said:
Speaking for myself. I am looking forward to the next Caliphate, for the very same Reason Christians are looking for it. the Next and final caliphate will occur with the return of Jesus(as). Like Christians Muslims are also awaiting for the Return of Jesus(as). Many, like myself, believe that will bring in the Next Caliphate

Ah, I was more or less referring to the more... worldly.. caliphate. As in an Islamic theocratic state similar to the one seen in the Ottoman Empire and the one that IS wishes to establish.
That kind of caliphate seems very, very scary.

There is no way it can be a true Caliphate, without involving the ummah (all of the world's Muslems)

Sadly people, including some Muslims, are unaware as to what Sharia actually is. It has been many Centuries since any nation followed actual Sharia, particularly in Criminal law. The Civil laws are pretty well followed by all Muslims.

What the media calls Sharia has very little resemblance to Sharia. To be Sharia One of the 4 Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence must be followed, fully. Any one of the Schools but only one and it must be followed fully not just picking out the parts a ruler likes.

I have snipped the rest of your post in order not to clutter up this thread.
I understand the way that the Hanifa school of law adopts rulings - this methodology is a practice that is actually fairly common in most Western law systems, too.

My question was actually a bit more concrete: as far as I know, the Hadith clearly states that Mohammad demanded the death penalty for Homosexuals - wouldn't a Hanifa ruling thus come to the conclusion that homosexuality (or acts thereof) are punishable by death?
--> I have googled this question myself, and came across this reference that states that "only" repeat offences would be considered a cause for execution, with all other Islamic legal systems advocating execution by stoning or burning.

Are these sources not credible, or are these the actual laws that most Muslims "look foward to"? :/

Please do not see this as an attempt to discredit your beliefs. I'm just genuinely interested as to whether or not many Muslims (I know you can't speak for all of them, but I value your opinion nonetheless) really support these (in my opinion) brutal punishments.

A Mosque that is only a Mosque is basically a place to keep out of the rain when praying. A non-Muslim would probably find it some what boring. Just prayers, No sermon, simple pure worship

That sounds much like a Christian prayer house.

A Picture is worth a thousand words here is the Fajr prayer all 4 minutes of it.

This is what takes place in a Mosque 5 times daily. For most Muslims that is the only time they are in the Mosque.

Visitors are welcome in virtually every Mosque. If you contact the Mosque in advance they will provide a chair for you to sit in. You may notice there are no pews or furniture in a Mosque. It is to be an empty room with no distractions. the purpose is worship not socialization

Hmm, do you guys have community rooms then? Is it open 24/7? Are there specific times when to pray, or is it "just" 5 times and distributed evenly?

Again, I thank you, woodrow, and WordsOfRepentance, for your taking time to write. As I said, my intention is not to offend you, but I have much prejudice towards Islam and want to see how much of that is really just prejudice and how much is based on accurate perception.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 23, 2014

WordsOfRepentance said:
ISIS shows all the traits of the KHAWARIJ - specially with their application of their takfiri doctrine.
Most Sunni scholars now consider them another manifestation of the KHAWARIJ, may God curse them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khawarij

I would say so.

Here is a thread that was moved from the General Theology board to the Christian current affairs board. I was hoping, since it involves mainly Islam, that it would be brought either to this board or the News and Current board.

Aside from that, I found this post of yours that mentioned Imam Mahdi, a person that is suppose to come in the end time with Jesus Christ!

[I may make a seperate thread on this.]

and the final Imām of the Twelve Imams who will emerge with Isa (Jesus Christ) in order to fulfill their mission of bringing peace and justice to the world.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7837727/#post66211169
Will Islam survive ISIS murdering Christians?

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Thank you.

So Islam is essentially as fractured as Protestant Christianity, with no defined leader except Muhammad?

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by WordsOfRepentance

Well this is the same damn question that is the barrier between Sunni and Shia Islam.

Religiously Muslims are told to hold only God's Book (the Koran) and the Prophet as the two only religious authorities. In fact the Koran calls Muslims to encourage Christians (if they don't accept Islam) to at least

1) Worship only God and God alone (pure monotheism)
2) Not set up lords and patrons among themselves

(3:64)
Say: "O People of the Book (followers of the Bible)! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will)"

As to political authority and leadership of the Ummah Sunni and Shia Islam conflict each other.
Sunnis believe in a Caliphate while the Shia believe in an Imamate (and these Imams holds religious authority too - something Sunni Islam vehemently finds fault with).

Shia Islam had 12 Imams, the last one disappeared and would return as Imam Mahdi, a person both Sunni and Shia Muslims revere, and become Caliph - thus putting to end this conflict for good.

LittleLambofJesus said:
Wow! That is fascinating and thanks for that.

I decided to look him up on Wiki, but will also look at other sources concerning him.

Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Mahdī (Arabic:محمد بن الحسن المهد&#1610 is believed by Twelver Shīa Muslims to be the Mahdī, an ultimate savior of humankind and the final Imām of the Twelve Imams who will emerge with Isa (Jesus Christ) in order to fulfill their mission of bringing peace and justice to the world.

Twelver Shīa believe that al-Mahdī was born in 869 (15 Shabān 255 AH) and assumed Imamate at 5 years of age following the death of his father Hasan al-Askari. In the early years of his Imamate he would only contact his followers through The Four Deputies.

Followers of Sunni Islam and other minority Shias mostly believe that the Mahdi has not yet been born, and therefore his exact identity is only known to Allah. Aside from the Mahdi's precise genealogy, Sunnis accept many of the same hadiths Shias accept about the predictions regarding the Mahdi's emergence, his acts, and his universal Caliphate. Sunnis also have a few more Mahdi hadiths which are not present in Shia collections.

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WoodrowX2 · Aug 23, 2014

Senator Cheese said:
Thank you again for your informative posts, Woodrow. Unfortunately, I have more questions. If these are becoming too much a nuisance, then feel free to decline to comment or tell me.

Ah, I was more or less referring to the more... worldly.. caliphate. As in an Islamic theocratic state similar to the one seen in the Ottoman Empire and the one that IS wishes to establish.
That kind of caliphate seems very, very scary.

I have snipped the rest of your post in order not to clutter up this thread.
I understand the way that the Hanifa school of law adopts rulings - this methodology is a practice that is actually fairly common in most Western law systems, too.

My question was actually a bit more concrete: as far as I know, the Hadith clearly states that Mohammad demanded the death penalty for Homosexuals - wouldn't a Hanifa ruling thus come to the conclusion that homosexuality (or acts thereof) are punishable by death?
--> I have googled this question myself, and came across this reference that states that "only" repeat offences would be considered a cause for execution, with all other Islamic legal systems advocating execution by stoning or burning.

Are these sources not credible, or are these the actual laws that most Muslims "look foward to"? :/

Please do not see this as an attempt to discredit your beliefs. I'm just genuinely interested as to whether or not many Muslims (I know you can't speak for all of them, but I value your opinion nonetheless) really support these (in my opinion) brutal punishments.

That sounds much like a Christian prayer house.

A Picture is worth a thousand words here is the Fajr prayer all 4 minutes of it.

This is what takes place in a Mosque 5 times daily. For most Muslims that is the only time they are in the Mosque.

Hmm, do you guys have community rooms then? Is it open 24/7? Are there specific times when to pray, or is it "just" 5 times and distributed evenly?

Again, I thank you, woodrow, and WordsOfRepentance, for your taking time to write. As I said, my intention is not to offend you, but I have much prejudice towards Islam and want to see how much of that is really just prejudice and how much is based on accurate perception.

Working backwards

Your welcome. I do deeply appreciate the fact you have prejudices. We all do. The best course any of us can take is to recognize our views and opinions are prejudiced and to do our best to prevent our prejudices from causing any harm. I do thank you for giving me the opportunity to present how I view Islam and the reasons why.

In more quiet times the Msjids were always left unlocked in most areas. But keep in mind very often the Masjid was built by the Imam who pays all the bills for it. Even a small Masjid can stretch the resources of an Imam. The simple act of somebody leaving the lights on can be a financial strain Any act of vandalism could easily bankrupt an Imam. so these days they are often locked except for the 5 obligatory prayers.

Larger Mosques in a large Muslim community is usually a pooled effort and the local populace will form an Islamic Society with each member assuming a percentage of the expenses. They are usually better equipped to handle unexpected expenses and are more prone to leave the doors unlocked.

However, it is rare for a Muslim to go into a Mosque except for the obligatory prayers. Most of us seem to prefer doing our personal prayers whenever and where ever we happen to be.

Except for the Masjids in Mecca, Jerusalem and Medina there is nothing special about a Mosque. We feel we can pray where ever we desire. There are no alters in a Mosque, all Muslims world wide pray facing the same alter site which is the Qiblah in Mecca. A Mosque is not needed for prayer, all the world is a Mosque. (Masjid is the actual name for a Mosque) All adult males are obligated to meet in community Prayer on Friday. This will be at the local Mosque if there is one. Beginning about 30 minutes before the Friday Prayer (Jummat) the Imam is permitted to give a Kitbah (Sermon) addressing issues of local concern.

Areas that have a large Muslim population will often have an "Islamic Center" This will usually consist of a Mosque, a General meeting Room, an Educational center, and a book Store.

However the Majority of Mosques in the US are simply a room in the Imam's house. Usually with a congregation of 4 to 8 people. (Often related to each other)

As for Homosexuality there are very few Authenticate Ahadith (That is the plural of Hadith) that address it. Some of the Madhabs of Shariah consider homosexuality to be objections Sexual Behavior. The punish ment if any will depend on What Madhab is followed and how the local courts have decided.

For all practical puposes the Hanafi Madhab does not use the death penalty for any crimes.

In fact most of the 49 Islamic Nations have never used the Death penalty. Although it is usually on the books as the maximum penalty permitted.

An Interesting look at what nations use the Death Penalty. While Few Islamic Nations use the Death penalty five of them do over use it.

SOURCE

WoodrowX2 · Aug 23, 2014

Continuing with what I did not adree in the above post

Senator Cheese said:
Thank you again for your informative posts, Woodrow. Unfortunately, I have more questions. If these are becoming too much a nuisance, then feel free to decline to comment or tell me.

Ah, I was more or less referring to the more... worldly.. caliphate. As in an Islamic theocratic state similar to the one seen in the Ottoman Empire and the one that IS wishes to establish.
That kind of caliphate seems very, very scary.

I do not see such as being able to occur.
Too many of the world's Muslim's do not see a Caliphate coming until the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mehdi

Just my opinion but the Nation most likely to have something resembling a Caliphate is Iran. But being Shi'a they are not likely to have any impact, unless IS weakens Iraq enough for Iran to Annex Iraq.

Kind of scary The main source keeping Iran out of Iraq at the Moment is probably IS,

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 23, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
Continuing with what I did not adree in the above post

I do not see such as being able to occur.
Too many of the world's Muslim's do not see a Caliphate coming until the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mehdi

Just my opinion but the Nation most likely to have something resembling a Caliphate is Iran.
But being Shi'a they are not likely to have any impact, unless IS weakens Iraq enough for Iran to Annex Iraq.

Kind of scary The main source keeping Iran out of Iraq at the Moment is probably IS,

Wow. So the US and allies take out ISIS, giving Iran easier access to possibly annex Iraq. That is scary....

Iran Offers Help With ISIS If US Lifts Nuclear Sanctions - Business Insider

Iran To US: We'll Help Fight ISIS If You Lift Nuclear Sanctions

It is the first time that Iran has explicitly linked its readiness to work with the West in Iraq with a lifting of the crippling EU and US sanctions imposed over its nuclear programme.
Those sanctions are the subject of ongoing talks between Tehran and the major powers that are due to resume before the opening of the UN General Assembly next month.

Israel Faced A Huge Wave Of Cyber Attacks During Its War With Hamas — And Iran Could Be The Reason Why

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Aryeh Jay · Aug 23, 2014

Senator Cheese said:
Thank you for your information, WoR. Are kufar allowed to visit a mosque, by the way? I know the Al Aqsa mosque was closed for tourism as a political measure - but in general, could a visitor come to a mosque? Do you guys also have outreach programs for interfaith dialogue?

Oh, and are you not answering the other questions of my post because you do not know the answers, or because you do not want to answer them? I was hoping someone would shed light into this.

I visit our Islamic Center/Mosque usually three times a month with my Muslim friends.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 23, 2014

Aryeh Jay said:
I visit our Islamic Center/Mosque usually three times a month with my Muslim friends.

I'm taking a short off-topic side bar.

Thank You Aryeh for the reminder it is not unusual for Jews and Muslims to be friends.

Something I saw when I lived in Texas, very often Jews and Muslims lived in the same communities. I had several Jewish friends in Austin.

One of the most touching things I experienced was the North Austin Islamic center was vandalized and trashed. The Jewish community responded immediately and came out in force to help clean up the mess.

Shalom

Aryeh Jay · Aug 23, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
I'm taking a short off-topic side bar.

Thank You Aryeh for the reminder it is not unusual for Jews and Muslims to be friends.

Something I saw when I lived in Texas, very often Jews and Muslims lived in the same communities. I had several Jewish friends in Austin.

One of the most touching things I experienced was the North Austin Islamic center was vandalized and trashed. The Jewish community responded immediately and came out in force to help clean up the mess.

Shalom

During Ramadan it would have been hard to tell my house from my Islamic friends. Cooking all afternoon and eating the evening meal all night. And if I want any mid-eastern food, I have to go to the Islamic market. If you went by what the kosher section of the grocery store has, the only things Jews eat are matzos, beet soup, pickled fish, and matzo ball soup.

salaam

ViaCrucis · Aug 23, 2014

Aryeh Jay said:
During Ramadan it would have been hard to tell my house from my Islamic friends. Cooking all afternoon and eating the evening meal all night. And if I want any mid-eastern food, I have to go to the Islamic market. If you went by what the kosher section of the grocery store has, the only things Jews eat are matzos, beet soup, pickled fish, and matzo ball soup.

salaam

Beet soup and pickled fish sounds like one of my friend's family reunions. His family is of Finnish and Swedish extraction.

Though a part of me wishes my family had some sort of "unique" culinary tradition. I'm of chiefly Irish and German descent, but up until a couple years ago I assumed corned beef on St. Patrick's Day was traditional Irish cuisine. And I only discovered German food after a trip in 2003 and spent time in Germany and Austria (mostly Austria) and because my grandfather was stationed in Würzburg, Germany during the 1960s when my dad was in high school.

-CryptoLutheran

WoodrowX2 · Aug 24, 2014

Aryeh Jay said:
During Ramadan it would have been hard to tell my house from my Islamic friends. Cooking all afternoon and eating the evening meal all night. And if I want any mid-eastern food, I have to go to the Islamic market. If you went by what the kosher section of the grocery store has, the only things Jews eat are matzos, beet soup, pickled fish, and matzo ball soup.

salaam

Because Halal food is scarce up here I often buy Kosher, which is permissible for us.But you are correct if you go to the Kosher section of most grocery stores, it leaves the impression Jews have a very limited died.

My Great Grandmother on my Mother's side was Jewish. Believe me the influence of a Jewish Grand-Mother passes down for many Generations. I pretty much grew up on Kugeli and Chicken Soup, yes with the feet. but I never had Matzos until I lived in Morocco.There used to be a rather large Jewish community in Port Lyauty (Kenitra) Relationships were very good, but this was in the early 1960s

Senator Cheese · Aug 24, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
Working backwards

Your welcome. I do deeply appreciate the fact you have prejudices. We all do. The best course any of us can take is to recognize our views and opinions are prejudiced and to do our best to prevent our prejudices from causing any harm. I do thank you for giving me the opportunity to present how I view Islam and the reasons why.

You are correct in saying that. Prejudice and hate are two of the most ungodly emotions I could come up with, and yet I find myself on that exact side when it comes to Islam. Obviously, this has nothing to do with faith in another set of rules of even another deity - I welcome Hindu, Judaism, Shinto or Buddhist faith. It just so happens that I am often left with the feeling that Muslims tend to want to have less to do with the rest of society (i.e. staying among each other in school or at college) and that some unknown percentage actually silently condone what is being done in the name of their religion.

On the other hand, I can understand that it's wrong to throw every Muslim into the same drawer "just because they have the same religion" as some whackjob who blows himself up. I don't go demonstrating every time a purportedly Christian government does something stupid that I don't support.

However, given that Islam seems to provide guidelines and rules for so many areas of life - and given that, at least from my very limited knowledge, the violent history of Mohammad and the strict rules in the Quoran seem to be far off from the civil rights that I hold dear, it is hard to differentiate.

In more quiet times the Msjids were always left unlocked in most areas. But keep in mind very often the Masjid was built by the Imam who pays all the bills for it. Even a small Masjid can stretch the resources of an Imam. The simple act of somebody leaving the lights on can be a financial strain Any act of vandalism could easily bankrupt an Imam. so these days they are often locked except for the 5 obligatory prayers.[/quote]

Aren't there any community contributions? Is there nothing like a collection plate?

However, it is rare for a Muslim to go into a Mosque except for the obligatory prayers. Most of us seem to prefer doing our personal prayers whenever and where ever we happen to be.

Except for the Masjids in Mecca, Jerusalem and Medina there is nothing special about a Mosque. We feel we can pray where ever we desire. There are no alters in a Mosque, all Muslims world wide pray facing the same alter site which is the Qiblah in Mecca. A Mosque is not needed for prayer, all the world is a Mosque. (Masjid is the actual name for a Mosque) All adult males are obligated to meet in community Prayer on Friday. This will be at the local Mosque if there is one. Beginning about 30 minutes before the Friday Prayer (Jummat) the Imam is permitted to give a Kitbah (Sermon) addressing issues of local concern.

Areas that have a large Muslim population will often have an "Islamic Center" This will usually consist of a Mosque, a General meeting Room, an Educational center, and a book Store.

However the Majority of Mosques in the US are simply a room in the Imam's house. Usually with a congregation of 4 to 8 people. (Often related to each other)

Hmm, that's very interesting.
So, another question, and one that you probably already answered in extenso, so you can just as well refer me to that thread.. you mentioned you were once a Christian with ties to the Middle East and ended up converting to Islam. What compelled you to do that? What's your opinion on Christians now - do you believe that all Christians are doomed (as some Christians think the same of members of other religions)? How did your wife and family react? What about the neighbors or co-workers?
And how did you get all of that knowledge? Many of the Arabic words you use certainly are specialized terms that I don't think the average American or European would know - starting with the "easier" words like Masjid and ending with knowledge of the more or less complex schools of Islamic law.

As for Homosexuality there are very few Authenticate Ahadith (That is the plural of Hadith) that address it. Some of the Madhabs of Shariah consider homosexuality to be objections Sexual Behavior. The punish ment if any will depend on What Madhab is followed and how the local courts have decided.

Wow, that completely contradicts all that I have known about Sharia law. What about other practices, though?
Such as cutting off hands for theft and execution for apostasy. Both seem to be based on the Quoran, so would these be acceptable punishments?

For all practical puposes the Hanafi Madhab does not use the death penalty for any crimes.

It's not so much the death penalty per se that I am worried about. The US employs the death penalty and though I do not support it, I do not fear its use in capital punishments.
However, I do see problems when the death penalty - or any other barbaric penalty - is applied to rules that I consider inherently flawed. Such as, aforementioned homosexuality, apostasy, theft (here, cutting off hands) or adultery.

I appreciate that you have provided a (in my humble opinion) very moderate school of legal thought. But is that school the most widespread among Muslims? If there were a caliphate, how would one choose which legal system to follow?

In fact most of the 49 Islamic Nations have never used the Death penalty. Although it is usually on the books as the maximum penalty permitted.

The way I understand it, except for the Islamic State, the Islamic nations have a set of secular criminal courts and Sharia civil courts, which would explain the discrepancy. This is, of course, a relief - but does this reflect the views of the Quoran and Muslim world, or is it a remnant of Westernization? (i.e. what is the dynamic of social development: will there be a larger influence of Islamic jurisprudence as time progresses, or will there be a more secular approach)

Again, thank you for taking time to write.

WordsOfRepentance · Aug 24, 2014

What's your opinion on Christians now - do you believe that all Christians are doomed (as some Christians think the same of members of other religions)?

Koran 2:135

They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists."

Koran 2:112

And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to God while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Koran 2:62

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans - those [among them] who believed in God and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

There is a wide range of interpretations for this verse. Some say it applies for the Christians before Muhammad, pbuh. But most are of the view that those Christians and Jews who have NOT received the UNDISTORTED message of the Prophet (the Koran) and

1) Believes in God
2) Believes in the Last Day
3) Do righteous works

would stand a chance for salvation

Muslims are unanimous that Christians who have heard the true message of Islam that purified their faith but rejected it for no good reason are to be blamed. Some of the message is that

1) Jesus did not die in the Cross. He prayed to God and God saved him from death
2) God is One in the absolute sense (no Trinity)
3) Jesus is not the "begotten" son of God. He does not share divinity of any kind
etc

The Koran speaks of good of some Christians.

...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82)

But ultimately it is God who would judge between all of us - all of the sects.

The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ. 2:113

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. 3:55

But the Quran encourages Muslims to come to common terms with the Christians who reject Islam. What are the terms?

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except God and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of God ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."
3:64

1. To worship only God and God alone
2. To not set up any lords beside God among them

WoodrowX2 · Aug 24, 2014

I am going to break this down over several posts. Having trouble with my PC and having to borrow my wife's lap top. In the process of reformatting and reinstalling the OS on my PC

Beginning with this much

Senator Cheese said:
You are correct in saying that. Prejudice and hate are two of the most ungodly emotions I could come up with, and yet I find myself on that exact side when it comes to Islam. Obviously, this has nothing to do with faith in another set of rules of even another deity - I welcome Hindu, Judaism, Shinto or Buddhist faith. It just so happens that I am often left with the feeling that Muslims tend to want to have less to do with the rest of society (i.e. staying among each other in school or at college) and that some unknown percentage actually silently condone what is being done in the name of their religion.

On the other hand, I can understand that it's wrong to throw every Muslim into the same drawer "just because they have the same religion" as some whackjob who blows himself up. I don't go demonstrating every time a purportedly Christian government does something stupid that I don't support.

However, given that Islam seems to provide guidelines and rules for so many areas of life - and given that, at least from my very limited knowledge, the violent history of Mohammad and the strict rules in the Quoran seem to be far off from the civil rights that I hold dear, it is hard to differentiate.

It isn't that Muslims "keep to their own kind" be cause of religions. Up until a bout 30 years ago nearly every Muslim in the US wa born here and had roots going back many generations. Usually the closest neighbors not even aware of having Muslim neighbors. I would venture that the Majority of my neighbors have never even thought I might be Muslim and I live in a City of less than 100 people.

What changed began with the large influx of Punjabi Muslims from what became Pakistan. The first exodus was to the UK. They all had British Citizenship and wanted to get out before Pakistan became a Nation and they would have lost British citizenship. I think that was when the migrations began.

The oil fields that hit maximum production in the 1950s-60 resulted in considerable inner conflicts resulting in more migration and then after 9/11 we had very many war refugees.

People will tend to stick close to those with similar backgrounds.

Here in the US you still find predominatly Irish, Italian, Polish, Puerto Rican, etc neighborhoods. Not because they are Christians but because they share common heritages.

In the "Muslim" Communities you will find there are Somali Communities, Pakistani Communities, Bangladeshi Communities, Indonesian Communities. The form communities because the share languages, food preferences etc, not because they are Muslim.

It takes many generations for a people to become accepted by the majority, nearly always that will be more dependent upon skin color than Religious beliefs.

Yes Islam does provide guidlnes for all aspect of life.

But, if you reflect upon it all people live under very similar guidelines. Just a question as to the origin of them. Religion, Family Tradition, National Custom, State, National Laws, Peer pressure etc.

I find Islam to be more in tune with Freedom of Choice than other life systems as Islam stresses "Personal Responsibility" above Commands or laws.

The Qur'an has very few things that could be considered Commandments. It is not a listing of do and not do. It is more a set of examples of what might happen of not happen if you do choice A instead of Choice B

One of the reasons The Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence had to develop, The Qur'an and Ahadith do not function as legal manuals.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 24, 2014

Senator Cheese said:
Aren't there any community contributions? Is there nothing like a collection plate?

Hmm, that's very interesting.
So, another question, and one that you probably already answered in extenso, so you can just as well refer me to that thread.. you mentioned you were once a Christian with ties to the Middle East and ended up converting to Islam. What compelled you to do that? What's your opinion on Christians now - do you believe that all Christians are doomed (as some Christians think the same of members of other religions)? How did your wife and family react? What about the neighbors or co-workers?
And how did you get all of that knowledge? Many of the Arabic words you use certainly are specialized terms that I don't think the average American or European would know - starting with the "easier" words like Masjid and ending with knowledge of the more or less complex schools of Islamic law.

We do not tithe. A person who starts a mosque is very often on his own and can expect little if any financial support.

In areas that have a large Muslim population there will often be several families willing to pool local resources and together manage to build a good sized Islamic center and Mosque. Somttimes they can even afford to pay an Imam and some very large ones can even afford to have several paid Imams along with a full staff to help run things. But all support will come from the local populace.

While any of us can donate to help with the support of a Mosque there is no obligation to do so,

Small communities are pretty much depended on having a Wealthy Muslim deciding to build a Mosque.

In the USA there are an estimated 2100 full time Mosques, but there are only 700 or so full time paid Imams. Nearly all of them are found at the 50 largest Mosques.

References: HERE and HERE

Just my guess based on the number of Mosques I am familiar with, While there are some Mosques with over 1,000 active worshipers, nearly every mosque I have personal knowledge of has less then 100 and most have less than 10.

The 2100 Mosques in the USA are probably within reach of only 10% of the US Muslim population.

For the most part the Imam will be either the person who provides the Mosque or the oldest person present at prayer. Most of the time when I attend a Mosque it is expected I will assume the role and lead the prayers.

My life in North Africa and the Mideast began with my role as an US Air force Pilot. It expanded after my Military career came to a sudden end and I returned annually as a Missionary (Assembly of God)

Over a period of 45 years I went from Christian to Atheist, had lost 2 wives and had become estranged from my Children. After I lost my First wife I remarried, my Children did not like my second wife and refused to have anything to do with us.

I accepted Islam when I was 65 years old. Had lost my second wife and was living a rather loose life as an Atheist Bachelor. I had not seen my Children for almost 20 years. I had grown grand children and Great-Grand Children I had never seen.

An excerpt from my life story I wrote for an Islamic site

In my early years one of my interests was the study of languages. among the languages I learned was Arabic. However I studied in Morocco at the University of Rabat and learned the Darija Dialect, which unfortunately is not understood in much of the Arabic speaking world. But the written Arabic is the same world wide no matter what dialect you speak, so it was not a total loss.

I first learned of Islam to any extent while I was a Pilot in the USAF. One thing we were taught was how to say the shahadah (The Islamic Testimony of Faith) in Arabic. It was believed that if we were found by any Muslims after crashing and if we said the Shahadah we would be treated as friends. This was taught in the event we ever crashed in a Muslim Nation, Our flights often originated near the Mediterranean and we sometimes flew over the Islamic nations.

By the year 1988 I had very much given up on organized Christianity, although I still felt Christianity was the path to salvation. I no longer belonged to any church and considered myself agnostic although I called myself Buddhist. In 1989 I lost my first wife and in 1990 married my second wife. My children did not like my second wife and that became the last year I had contact with my children. My wife and I pretty much became wanderers around the world. I had sufficient personal income and savings so we could pretty much indulge our travel desires. We both also did as much evangelical work we could during this time. However, my preaching became plain simple Christianity with no denomination affiliation. It was a self paid venture with no sources for any religious pamphlets, bible etc except for my own wallet. Yet, there was always sufficient money to provide for any needed material.

In 2004 We were living in the small town of Tennessee Colony. Texas a very Red Necktown smack in the Center of the Bible Belt. I was diagnosed with lung cancer and began preparing for my final days. But my wife passed away suddenly just a few weeks after my diagnosis. I went into a very deep depression and began drinking quite heavily. In May of 2005 I realized the stupidity of my drunken binge sobered up and set forth to regain control of my life. I began with a general clean up of the house. During my clean up I found my old Qur'an in Arabic that I had bought while I was a student at Rabat. I had bought it as a study guide to help me learn to read Arabic.

It had been many years since I had last read anything in Arabic. I was curious as to if I could still read it. I opened it to Surah Fatiha and the first line literally jumped out at me.

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem. "In the name of Allaah, the provider, the Most merciful"

It was like the words glowed and completly filled me with an inner peace I never felt before.

I turned back to the preface and saw it was the supplication:

Auzu Billahi Mina Al Shaytan Al Rajeem.
(In Allaah(swt) I seek refuge from the evils of Satan)

After over 20 years of not speaking Arabic it all flowed back to me. I could not stop reading and I was not simply reading words, the feeling of each ayyat came upon me with an indescribable warmth and sense of understanding. I could not stop. I do not know how long I read I know it was for at least 48 hours and I still could not stop the feeling was so powerful and filling me with a strong sense of love and joy on the morning of what I believe was the 3rd day I finally set the Qur'an down and knew I was Muslim. I instantly said the Shahadah and knew I was now part of the Ummah. I did not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas much less if there were any Mosques.

I realized I was hungry and there was no food in the house. The nearest store was only a mile from me so I decided to walk down to it. When I entered the store there was a stranger from out of town. He was dark skinned. Our eyes met and he smiled and said "As salaamu Alaikum Akhi" without hesitation I answered back "Wa alaikum wa ramatullahi wa baraktuhu" He then asked"How long have you been Muslim, I answered about 15 minutes.

He then asked me if I had ever been in a Mosque, I said no. He then invited me to go to the Mosque in Tyler on Friday. I accepted. I later learned his name was Aadil and he had just moved to Texas from Pakistan. He had gotten lost and accidentally drove into Tennessee Colony, He had stopped at the store to get directions. Aadil and I became very close friends and still are although he has since moved back to Pakistan.

Things then moved so fast it became a blur. My youngest Daughter who I had not seen for over 15 years called me on the telephone. She had been contacted by the VA and had learned they were concerned about my health. She insisted I move in with her family in Austin, which I did. The biggest surprise was finding out she had accepted Islam 10 years before and was married to a fine pious Muslim man and had 2 children I had never seen. A bigger surprise was soon to come. I discovered all of my children had reverted to Islam and all of my Grandchildren were Muslim.

My cancer was in remission for a while. In January of 2006 the cancer became active again. without treatment my prognosis was 3-4 months. I elected not to receive treatment and set about making my own funeral arrangements. In May for some reason I was still alive and accidently stumbled across the forum (islamicboard.com). I joined and it became a source of purpose for me. Ramadan came and I was still alive. During Ramadan, came what I call the Beard miracle. People of my race have no facial hair or at most a few scattered whiskers(I ampredominantly Mongol) (Lithuanian Tatar-Lietuva Lipkas) I had never had to shave in my entire life. Yet on that Ramadan I grew a full, fist length, very thick beard. I still have the beard and although it has never been trimmed it is still the same length.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 24, 2014

Senator Cheese said:
And how did you get all of that knowledge? Many of the Arabic words you use certainly are specialized terms that I don't think the average American or European would know - starting with the "easier" words like Masjid and ending with knowledge of the more or less complex schools of Islamic law.

One of my earliest loves was and still is Languages. That was my initial reason for learning Arabic. Later it became part of my military life.

Later as a Missionary I began a very long study of Islam as a means of debating with Muslims in my attempts to convert them to Christianity. I felt my best tool would be to learn more about Islam than the average Muslim.

Two areas of deep interest to me are the "Science of Hadith" and "Islamic Jurisprudence" I've been studying both now for 9 years and am still very much a novice.

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